I have learned so very much on this forum.  

I personnally was told that I couldn't aspie (from PhD level "Professionals" with years of experience in the field) b/c I have poor math skills and that is a distinguishing aspect of AS & ASD.  And spatial skills too good for NLD

I was therefore given the label, ADD, despite my life-long difficulty with understanding anything socially - but at least I had my focused interests to get me through the rough times!!

But I am done with labels anyhoo.  

Just last night I was reading that they are going to start subdividing ASD into sub groups, because researchers cannot draw any conclusions as it is now.

Where'd you read that, Chimera?

Autism Spectrum Quarerly (Spring 2008)
"Autism Subtypes: A key to understanding a purplexing spectrum (Lars Perner, PhD)"

the technology is upon us when we could categorize people by
genetic make up (10 - `15 genes appear to be associated with autism)
enzyme, etc activity or levels
brain scans
behavioral subtypes (which the author feels may hold the greatest promise)

The author would favor subtyping in hopes of being able to efficiently figure out which treatments would likely be most effective.

Dr. Perner was labeled AS at the age of 31

I would be ashamed to be associated with professionals who believe stereotypes like that are actually part of the AS/ASD criteria.

For the record, both my Math skills and spatial skills are very poor.  What does this suggest to you..?

You have to remember that until recently, the Aspergers and Autism diagnosis was much narrower and typically only included the savants and a few others. Therefore, many of these people were educated with this definition and therefore still use it.

That's what I was thinking.. perhaps I should have included that in my last comment..  

Yeah, it does seem that some of the stereotypes are loosening up a bit, now, for a broader and more inclusive grasp of ASD...  but still, it's not quite enough to satisfy me.  I'm one of the biggest opponents to the "Math skills" stereotype, and what's more, even the "genius IQ" stereotype bothers the hell out of me.

IMHO, it's very likely there's a lot of folks with AS out there who have average intelligence, like me, it's just that they may not be as noticeable because they don't have the typical academic/scientific interests.  I have no interest/skill in either area, my only interests are in art/creativity and entertainment media, and even then I'm far from being any kind of "gifted specialist."  Far from it, in my honest assessment.

Batman, what about your art? I thought you were gifted in art. I also think the people who were educated in the old definition of autism need to update their knowledge to include the new information that is out there. Otherwise, how can they claim to be experts in diagnosing autism?

I do seem to have some "idiosyncratic" ability in some narrow categories of art, but it is not orthodox and basically goes against how art is taught.  I would not call myself gifted in art because I have not been able to learn spatial representation and perspective--these things are exceedingly difficult for me.  So, realistically, I don't think you could call me gifted in art.

But I am doing just the same things and some people have told me I am gifted. That's why I say the same about you. Art doesn't have to just be about perspective and spatial representation, originality is very important.

our honest John, did not fit with the heretofore known "definition" of aspergers (though I was avoiding all labels).  The previous parameters specifically excluded kids who were funny- like witty, comical, superbly developed with language skills John.  John, as a couple of you mentioned, also has horrid abilities in math and math reasoning.  His composite IQ is ("only" -who cares) 105, but that is becasue his math and working memory is 85.  However, his spatial ability is quite superior.   He is also very, very imaginative and talkative - and compassionate - also excluded in soime lists.  He also seems similar to you, tenaciouscj, as his art abilities are very good but unorthodox, he is unteachable in art.  (He has no interest in others' techniques - I am not an artist so maybe that is par for the course).  Way back when he was barley 3 years old, he could already draw in 3 dimensions, with perfect scale and perspective - he even gave shadows to his pictures ... sorry, boasting a bit, he's quite good.  I gahave seen him draw with his eyes closed, it seems he knows what he is going to draw when he first puts his pencil down - he sometimes doesn't lift the pencil till the picture is done.  No erasures.  I guess that is just called natural ability. It is a shame that when he is struggling through the tedium of school work, he loses his inspiration.  Summer is his prolific time.

I was thinking about my son john - it sounds like a difficult distinction to make.  I think that one difference may be that AS kids, john for one, tend to look at the mouths of people they are talking to, not always the eyes.  I think that John's brain has a hard time learning who is who and recognizing people that he "should" recognize.  He uses alot of eye contact, but I think he looks at things that move the most and misses the details of the face- that is a trait of AS/.  I don't know anything about the other thing, (SAd) never heard of it (sheepish).

Oh yes and rocking...

Your boasting is inconsiderate to me.  I am 26 and art is one of my few gifts, and you are telling me your 3 year old son could draw with 3 dimensions--and I still cannot.

I have serious deficits in both Math and spatial skills and I am not good at anything.  Except art perhaps, but apparently your son is a hundred times better than me.

Thank you for mentioning my name alongside tenaciouscj with unorthodox skills... that was nice of you (sarcasm)

I'm not gifted when a 3 year old is able to learn spatial skills, and I am 26 and still unable to learn it.

Your positivity with me is heretofore contradicted by honestjohn's description.

I am good for nothing.  I am defective.  I am s**t.

That sounds quite like my spread of abilities... I am bad at many areas of math, and my short-term (working) memory is crap; occasionally when I am driving somewhere I will forget where I am supposed to be going and drive back home. I have very good visuo-spatial abilities, though, which I've read is unusual for Asperger's (of which I have a semi-official diagnosis) and Nonverbal Learning Disorder (fully-officially diagnosed). Does your son also have strong verbal/reading abilities? We seem to be very much alike based on what I've read... I tend to be rather quiet rather than talkative, though.

Official testing I did back in October proved that my full scale IQ was completely irrelevant to anything, as is the case with many (dare I say most) Aspies due to the extremely uneven spread of abilities. My IQ ranges from 78 (borderline retarded) to 176 (genius-level), based on the specific subject that is being tested. My full scale IQ was within the high-normal range, but it is still rather common for me to have times when I feel very unintelligent and other times when I feel "gifted". Sometimes they happen simultaneously.

Note that my "full-scale" IQ test when I was 15 landed an overall score of 99--6 points less than honestjohn's son.

I just can't win.

I note that my spatial deficits, with math deficits, would easily place me in the category of NVLD.  However, if you fit NVLD criteria... can you also fit AS criteria?

Or must it be one or the other?