This.

oh and other stuff- but heterodox is saying what I would but better.
maybe I'll come back later too.

danyalukin, you may have noticed that I haven't said anything about the content of your study yet and thats because I found it very confusing and very unscientific.

You started talking about helping autistic people with expressive language difficulties.

"Why is this SO important? Because communicating emotions is crucial to social comfort! While those with HFA might not experience it as much, those on the lower end of the spectrum know how difficult it may be to explain what you feel. And, unless one can do so freely, one can hardly feel accepted and understood. With misunderstanging come depression, anxiety and tantrums, making life around people a living hell."

and

"Both as HFA and LFA, you may find it difficult to describe what you feel. The difference is that if you're HFA you are well familiar with the terms: "angry, happy, sad, etc". If you are on a lower end of the spectrum (or/and are barely- or non-verbal), you experience another barrier - communicating emotions through words.
In short, although it is not well supported by research that there is a difference in understanding of own emotions for people throughout the spectrum, it is true that mastery of the language makes is an asset in emotion-communication.

Hope that makes sense,"

It didn't actually but I waited for more information. And now,

"Why Asperger's? Once again, because of the visual theory of mind. People are visual on a scale, from being almost completely non-visual to being almost completely visual. It just so happens that those with ASD are also likely (I stress, likely, but not definite) to be more visual (to what extent is not yet known). But yes, not necessarily asperger's, although this 'visual thinking' ability which people like Temple Grandin claim to be a very powerful tool is much more prevalent on the autism spectrum. "

That doesn't make much sense either or said with any real understanding of autism so its not surprising that,

"no institution that claims to support autism in my area wanted to bother with research."

I'm guessing that because it is noted that many people on the spectrum have expressive language difficulties and because many people on the spectrum are noted to have visual thinking abilities you have decided to mate these complex issues.

I was going to say, think hedgehogs but actually think giant porcupines. (mating for text thinkers)

Your, "I got an inkling of an idea, " is a nonsense idea but we do know that baby hedgehogs are born so it is possible with the right angle for the right subject.

So this is my best recommendation to get you out of this minefield.

Make your machine specifically for your friend. In doing so you will learn a lot more about your friends autism and his issues in these areas.

If you succeed in transforming his life then you will have done a great thing.

That success should inspire you to try it on a second autistic. You will have to adapt it but in doing so you will learn a lot more about autism. After a few more you will be able to see the minefield you are in.

Who knows you might be a big success with one of half a dozen different versions to suit anybody.

By all means think big but start small.

Good luck

Thank you for this, wholeheartedly. I can't say I'm happy to hear this, of course, but I'm thankful you spent the time writing this to make the point.

Nevertheless, I am not completely convinced. Without disagreeing with you on details, please consider this:

1) LFA (nonverbal, for example), have difficulty communicate their emotions.
2) Communicating emotions is important, since it is important for them to be in harmony with and understood by the outside world
3) HOW do they do it?
4) Perhaps (forgetting my unscientific studies and other) communicating through pictures is a possibility?

Would you consider the 4 points above reasonable?

Once again, thank you!

I am a researcher too so I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't answer me. Was I right about the abstract representation of a heart that looks nothing like a real heart?
Did you put those two ideas together? Your posts put them together in my head which blew my mind. Talk about 2+2=22.

Hence the rather poor analogy with the porcupines, sorry!

However looking at your 4 points I think we can kick the visual thinking porcupine into touch. Much as I love to talk about it, its got nothing to do with your project, just think Shaekespear.
(I must say that I was sorely tempted to reply to 142857's insightful, as always, post about visual thinking instead but you are a guest, poorly informed but well meaning so I wanted to help.)

So very briefly
You have read about the need for concise but precise use of language when communicating with autistics? Hmmm

"1) LFA (nonverbal, for example), have difficulty communicate their emotions."

So I take little non verbal Danny swimming. By the time we get to the edge he's jumping up and down flapping his arms with excitement. In the water his uninhibited joy and beaming smile are beautiful to behold.
So no difficulty here then.

I decide to take a photo to show to my boss but the photo comes out with Danny looking in pain. wtf

Not to be defeated
I line up beside the pool a line of compic emotion cards and ask Danny to take one or
I line up beside the pool a line of photo emotion cards and ask Danny to take one or
I line up beside the pool a line of colourful abstract emotion cards and ask Danny to take one or
I line up beside the pool a line of word emotion cards and ask Danny to take one
And its even been done with smells, ahh sweet happiness.

Now the success or failure of any of these attempts to communicate his emotions depends an awful lot on a lot of different factors not least of which will be Danny's understanding of what he thinks I require of him.

You see that porcupine yet and we are only talking about 1 person, 1 emotion and 1 working method.

The problem IS actually cross neurotype communication.

"2) Communicating emotions is important, since it is important for them to be in harmony with and understood by the outside world"

You have read about autistics not liking change etc and you've been reading about autistics with learning difficulties? Hmmm

So how about, it is important for the outside world to understand and be in harmony with autistics.

So much challenging behaviour is caused by difficulties in cross neurotype misunderstanding of emotions.
If you want to change behaviour then change your own. Its much easier and a lot less painful!

Numbers of autistics keep on increasing. At some point the outside world will have to start listening as opposed to insisting that those poor autistics conform to the NT expectations.

"3) HOW do they do it?"

Oh dear I have no idea what you mean. I'll guess, 'how do nonverbals communicate'.
Good observation as clearly they do get on with each other most of the time just as the people here do and as a group of NT's do, most of the time.

You need to be able to swim before you can jump in the deep end.

"4) Perhaps (forgetting my unscientific studies and other) communicating through pictures is a possibility? "

I'm sure your studies were scientific it was just the way you interpreted and presented them.
You have thoroughly explored the market for all the different products to help autistics express themselves? Hmmm

The emotion cards have been around since the 80's and over recent years there has been an explosion in apps and tablets that do just this sort of thing but they nearly all cost a fortune.

I can walk around the Autism Show and with my in depth knowledge of my clients I can say, Danny might like this one and that one might work for Bobby etc but there is no one method suitable for all autistics.

Now here is one big hint which I think you will understand.
Why are the new tablets so good?
Because they cut out the need for cross neurotype communication.
The tablet acts as a neutral middleman. The autistic communicates with the tablet.

With your limited knowledge of autism you haven't a hope of success, except maybe with your friend because that only depends on your understanding of him.

I'm not belittling your academic prowess. But take a graduate with their degree in autism, say a teacher. Over the first couple of months the teacher sees everything they've learned about autism in the autistic kids in their class. There is the triad of impairment, the routines the sensory issues it was all in the text books.

So having got to know her kids and seen all the classic symptoms the teacher starts to help the children with their difficulties.
But despite doing everything the textbooks said things weren't working out, the teacher wasn't getting anywhere. wtf

I've got so many examples that I could give but I'm going to finish now with the answer to that last one which I'm sure the entire forum is itching to sing out to you.

1
2
3

None of the text books were written about Danny and none of the textbooks were written about Bobby...
When you've met one autistic, you've met one autistic.

In response to that question of yours, when I think of love, I imagine two people together, alone in the world, together, so to say.

I have heard this many times and learned this from day zero. It is an absolutely valid statement - everyone is unique.
And you must agree, neurotypical people are just as unique, correct? Then, if behavioral studies are conducted with neurotypical people to see how they respond to a certain stimulus 'on average', can similar studies not be extended to autistics? Please note that my study is NOT limited to autistic people, but collects data from people on and off the spectrum.

That statement is being argued and has not been proven to be true. Diagnosis of autism changed, and that is one of the reasons that number of people diagnosed saw a rise. By the way, you might know that they are currently making diagnosis more stringent, with less people qualifying for ASD (a big controversy).

And how effective are they? Emotion cards with facial expressions are not effective, considering the fact that facial-emotion recognition is often impaired in people with ASD. I've seen plenty, and their usefulness is questionable (not by me, since I am in no position to judge, but by people who are knowledgeable). And those that "cost a fortune" effectively don't exist, since they are not accessible.

Yes, what I want to do wont help everyone. But don't you agree that if, of Danny, Bobby, Tommy, Jackie, Christie, if it helps Jimmy, the efforts are worth it? In other words, if this happens to be a great tool for some 5-10% of all autistics...it has to be done.

This post was last modified: 07-07-2012 10:38 PM by danyalukin.

How would you put an emotion into a picture?

Ahh no heart, I was wrong but that just proves that there's no common concrete images for abstact nouns. Who'd of thought of a unisex toilet sign.

They use the behaviour studies to write the text books.


Yes I misjudged your knowledge. I should of said the numbers of autistics classed as disabled are rising. But we needn't go into the whys as irrelevent to your study.


The emotion cards have been around since the 80's and they have been evolving ever since, some examples listed by the pool. The latest ones are adaptions of Thomas and friends and are very good for some.

The old compic symble ones are still good for a few but I don't understand half of them.


"And those that "cost a fortune" effectively don't exist, since they are not accessible." Bravo yes, but it is still worth looking at them to see what ideas you can pinch.

That is why I wanted to offer my ideas to you because even if you only copy them you will help many who can't afford it.

And your final point, yes, yes, yes, start with Jimmy your friend and if you can help him then you could well help some others, whatever %.

Its not just that it has to be done, it has to succeed.

Good luck.

PS.
I don't expect you to believe anything I say, Im just trying to put constructive ideas in your head for you to mull over.

That's exactly what I am trying to understand with my study. Give me 2 more months, and I will get back to you with images and descriptions.

Heterodox: Yes, it has to succeed. But there is only one 100% way for it to fail - to not attempt

As for "I dont expect for you to believe anything I say", you are expecting wrong. I take your suggestions seriously and consider them very helpful. Thanks again, that is