WHy couldn't I pick every one of those!
(had to go with religion as religion has an answer to every one of those )

but seriously, great thread...

Our collective culture provides life support, more than some care to realize.

An easy way to test it is, disregard everything associated with culture, and see how long one can survive.

The reality of a feral child in the developed world has not been supported by credible evidence, for good reason.

We have created an illusion that most of us cannot escape.

It is the matrix that we already depend on.



The apex of our technological maturity as a species was likely when we were not completely dependent on it, and properly evolved for it.  Some still live like that in the world.  

We can no more understand their way of life, than they can understand ours.  But, do we really understand our way of life?  Perhaps it is theirs’.


Any part of a species that has the ability to exhaust it's resources is doomed, if it does so.  We have gained that ability, not only for us, but for a good part of the rest of nature as well.

We have not had the time to evolve, to successfully live in a hive.  Nor, the ability to control our collective intelligence; something ants and bees do quite well.



Our challenge is to control the matrix that together we have already created.  But, we are still only primates, ruled by the same basic laws of the jungle.  Evidence of that is all around us.  

The matrix, now, appears to be our master.  And it has become incredibly powerful within just the last few decades.  

Moore's Law is definitely part of it, but our evolution as humans has not kept up with it.  It is already rooted beyond biology.


If the NSA really believes that "anonymous" could gain the ability to shut down the power grid, in a couple of years, through keystrokes on a computer.  That's a pretty good example that the matrix is in control, and, only one of many.



It appears to be only a matter of time, before a part of the matrix takes part of the hive down.

Bees are not "intelligent" enough to do that.  They have had the time to properly evolve, to live in a hive.

Some of those "primitives" in South Africa or South America, whom live outside the Hive, may never even notice it.  Depending, on which part of the hive is disturbed.

There was a speaker at my Astronomy Club who promotes the Many Worlds interpretation of Quantum Physics.  He claimed that this idea disproved the Anthropic Principle because the laws of each universe would be different.  Hence, none could argue that the laws of the Universe were "programmed" for life.

With the same breath, he then claimed that General Relativity would be the same in all worlds.  It is the laws of string theory, mathematically defined, that allows for all of this.  There is a contradiction in his philosophy somewhere.  I think that many universes, if proven, do not necessarily overturn the possibility of a Universe programmed for life.

As for the science, it is possible.  I think that many universes with different physical constants would be cool.  My sense, however, is that the life principle is more resilient than we might think.

This post was last modified: 02-29-2012 10:21 AM by Nasa Shill.

Life seems to be a reasonable consequence of the Universe, not limited to our world, from what we can observe of the Universe.  However, the competitive instinct to survive, is probably a constant as well, for any organism that survives.

Most of our perspective though, is influenced by our modern culture.  The perspective of our species is influenced by millions of years of the culture seen in primates today in the wild, and other animals as well.

The sliver of modern culture and technology is an obvious abherent feature in this world.  Very successful for 10,000 years, but just as dangerous as successful, to the species itself in that short period of time.  Our ancestors survived for millions of years with their efforts.  

Culture and Technology have provided us with many luxuries, but with a price that could potentially end the species, as great as most terrestrial and cosmic environmental extinctions.

The fact that we are part of this time, is incredible enough for me.  Not many creatures have likely understood as much of reality, as we have come to understand.  However, does that even mean anything?

We may experience less of our full range of sensory experience than our recent ancestors, only several thousand years ago.

Much of our life is vicarious.  Is it better? That's hard to know when that is all that one has experienced from childhood.  No doubt though, the security and comforts, available,  match an approximation of what could only be understood as nirvana, for most other creatures that have existed, likely here, and most other worlds as well.

All of these ideas are contigent on when we were born.  Most of our reality we owe to the millions of years of collective effort of our ancestors.

That said, anything is possible.  My imagination of what could be, is entirely limited by what I am.  

My intuitive feeling, though, is that the competitive nature of the survival of life, and technology as a result of that life, may not be an overall beneficial mix, to the ultimate survival of that species.  

Anything past our point of discoveries, may not last much longer for a species.

And on our own, without our language or our culture, we don't rank very high on the food chain, or in terms of strength, sensory experience, or likely even the highest innate intelligence for survival in the wild.  

We have gained culture, but lost innate resilience to the environment as well, because it has allowed many to live, that would not have had the opportunity otherwise.

I am a product of the matrix that humans have collectively created.  Not likely that someone with poor vision like me would have lasted very long in the wild, in a dangerous environment.  I likely owe my life to culture and technology.  As well as many others.  Particulary those with disabilities.  

Given the abysmal record of governments world-wide, I always have to chuckle at the touching faith of those who think political or military leaders have the intelligence to successfully carry out a conspiracy of any type.  Personally I think the majority of our leaders can't think and breathe at the same time, you know they're concentrating on something hard when they're sitting there blue in the face.  

As to whether or not we're in some kind of illusion, well, I can't see that it changes anything.  We're in it, we have to live as best we can within our reality, whatever it is.  

Alison

"I am a product of the matrix that humans have collectively created.  Not likely that someone with poor vision like me would have lasted very long in the wild, in a dangerous environment.  I likely owe my life to culture and technology.  As well as many others.  Particulary those with disabilities."

Interestingly, many paleolithic societies took care of people with disabilities.  The evidence suggests this.  Your comments are interesting and I will consider them.

"Given the abysmal record of governments world-wide, I always have to chuckle at the touching faith of those who think political or military leaders have the intelligence to successfully carry out a conspiracy of any type."

I'd say the same about many of these Wall Street Executives, and yet they are regularly prosecuted for conspiracy as an actual charge.  So are many people of much lesser intellect.  Should their convictions be overturned based on skepticism about their lack of ability to engage in conspiracies?

It's not surprising that you see a contradiction because multiverse theory is no more scientific than the theory that aliens created our, programmed for life, universe.

Within the subject of this thread I think you are right, our leaders are just as clueless as the rest of us.

I also agree that if we are living in a virtual world it changes nothing but it does lead to some very interesting philosopical debates.

True, perhaps, but both make for good stories and even better movies!

Great post, after reading that I rate the likelihood that we are living in a matrix as "3" on a scale of 1 to 10 (previously "1").

My understanding is that the human brain has a "workable" memory of 200 or 300 Megabytes. I remember in 1981, one of our science teachers told us that a human brain has a whole GIGABYTE of storage. Now in those days a gigabyte was like a big sealed room full of humungous disk drives (each of which could be destroyed by a speck of dust), with large industrial air conditioners to keep things cool and a whole team of engineers and operators to keep them running. These days a gigabyte is not exactly a big deal.

And in terms of processing decisions, even a laptop leaves a human brain for dead.

So is a vast leap in processing power really the only thing standing in the way of uploading a replica of a human mind? Isn't the likely process a whole lot more subtle and complicated than that?

Sollipsism is pointless in the context of "Only the self can be confirmed".

"Decisions" or electrical connections with another neuron?

In the sense of "electrical connections" ... brain has puny manufactured processor beat every time.

I'd like to have that option:
No.  There are no conspiracies, especially not those that the government calls conspiracies.

So, what to choose?

I wanted to get people to think about this subject more seriously and you've gone from a "1" to a "3", I'm chuffed. I wonder what it would take to get you to a "5"!!

Our understanding of the complexity of the human brain has improved significantly since your teacher read about it.

I took the date of 2030 from a prediction by Ray Kursweil who is an interesting and controversial figure but his predictions on the future seem to be as good as anybody else's. Look him up if you haven't heard of him.

These days computers are still a long way from being up to the task but resources are pouring into the field of mind uploading these days. Many people no longer think of it as science fantasy. The Wiki gives a lot more detail than I could give

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading

What billionaire wouldn't want to chip in. Mind uploading offers immortality. It offers us the stars by giving us interstellar space travel, possibly at the speed of light if we could upload on a strong laser.

And what was it that that guy Jesus said? (Religion never was my strong point) Wasn't it something like, follow these commandments and we shall upload your minds to my fathers kingdom for eternal life. Hmmm...

Now what was I saying about Adam and Eve...