http://www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/fact/the_holoc...ions.shtml

Seems to be some similarities.

People with disability are viewed as "useless eaters", undesirable contributors to the gene pool, burdens, suffering, would be better off dead, sterilized, murdered.

Saw nothing in the article about Kanner or Asperger. Or Autists at all

I dont  think Autists ( with the exception of some severe LFA`s ) would have been considered "disabled".

Godwin.

Godwin.

Please don't do that.

You are all nazis!

Duckie not now...

Who's Godwin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Godwins law states that as a debate or argument goes on, the odds of one party comparing the other to Nazis becomes 1.

When one party does make that comparison, they automatically lose in most formal debates.

Does that include making a comment about starting up a Spitfire and shooting down WWII Luftwaffe? Might be tempting.

I don't see the point of the comparison. If I or someone else sees themselves as a useless eater, does that count? What about seeing an autistic child as suffering, under heavy burden, etc? Certainly, a person might be inclined to think "how do I help" when they see someone like this. Sometimes they get tricked into thinking that the only means to help is procure attitudes and donations.

Nah... there's major problems with the op's comparison.

This thread is asking the wrong question.

Rather ask "What do Nazis and current British Policy on Disability" have in common (the parallel the article is actually making)...then it starts to get really scary. That is the whole point of Nabil Shaban's play "The first to go" - a reminder that it is all starting to happen again - economic correction through population reduction (which, quite chillingly, was the main thrust of the entire holocaust).

There is no doubt that a lot of Autistics, as well as a lot of people deemed "mentally ill" (by the standards of the times, that anywhere in the Western World, regularly extended the term to cover unwanted spouses, inconvenient parents and surplus rebellious children etc), were exterminated under Aktion T4. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4 )

However, the only "Autism Researcher" in the Reich was, in fact, Hans Asperger ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Asperger ), who spent a lot of time and effort on spinning his observations of "Autistic Psychopathy" (http://www.paulcooijmans.com/asperger/as...rized.html ) made in parallel with Leo Kanner, his fellow Austrian in America) in the general direction of "however, of exceptional use to the Reich" in the hope of keeping the boys in his care alive - from whence came the practice of defining high functioning Autism as "Asperger Syndrome" in the English speaking world since 1980...and the routine identification of higher functioning forms of Autism in the German speaking world pretty much since the dust cleared after WWII.

Would that we had such researchers as Hans Asperger now...

It is a mistake to parallel even the most morally bankrupt of "Autism Researchers" with Nazis. Believe me, the last thing they want is to wipe out Autistics...because if they do, their funding, power and prestige is wiped out with us.

What they really want to do is keep us as disabled and dependent as possible, because in that state we are worth one hell of a lot of money, power and prestige to them and their associate organisations.

If you want a parallel for the "Autism Researchers" - rather look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

Because, with adaptations, that is the original, structural model most of them are working to replicate and expand to encompass as many Autistics as they can. The only thing wrong with it is that most, if not all of those it is imposed upon, will never have any quality of life...however much money they generate.

It strives to assist society in coping with our disability by containing and exploiting it...and will never offer any of us one iota of real help in overcoming our differences and living real, independent lives at all, rather to the contrary.

Viewed from some angles, that is, perhaps, even more monsterous than Aktion T4 ever was, and less likely to be meet with popular resistance...

...after all, they can "prove" that they only exist to help us...can't they?

This post was last modified: 10-28-2011 12:13 PM by Mechanima.

Mechanima, if there ever becomes a problem with their being a need to kill people due to the "economy", lots of other people besides autistics would become a target.

Also, the "economy" is not what directly caused Nazi Germany's genocide. The idea that eugenics could be accomplished on the grounds of determining race and selective breeding of people, is.

As for the rest: too much politics.

You must have misread me Kapkao...I am sorry about that...there is no policy I am aware of specifically targeting Autistics anywhere in the world.

The original article is intended to highlight a UK policy specifically targeting *all* disabled people, at this stage, as economic scapegoats in increasingly pervasive propaganda, with concurrent policy directives that aim to push them below subsistance and have already begun to result in death and suicide in the sector.  

Secondary economic targets slated for similar "handling" along the lines of a modern revival of the ethos of the 1834 Poor Law ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poor_Law_Am...t_Act_1834 ) include, single parents, the unemployed and (of course) racial minorities. But disabled people are the primary target.

It wasn't actually, that was the rationale for the "result" not the "cause"...which was the economy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Repu....931933.29 ) creating ideal circumstance for an obscure, totalitarian party to rise to power on promises (many, initially realised) of recovery, full employment and stability...which depended, long term, on a significant reduction in population and redistribution of wealth as well as dramatic reduction in the national debt, including reparation for WWI paid under the treaty of Versailles. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#History )

Tough...what did you *THINK* the Nazi party and Autism Research were about?

This post was last modified: 10-28-2011 01:35 PM by Mechanima.

History, mang! :points at mecha's previous post about Hans Asperger and autism research:


As for what caused the economic problems in Germany and a sliver of what exactly was happening to Germany in the 1920s... I'm already aware of them, including the Slave Treaty of Versailles and German Worker's Party Beer Hall Putsch of 1922. That is without looking at Wikipedia. My interest in debating cause is nil.

The link about British Law is interesting, and I'll give it a look.

I do think that this brings up some very valid points.

Like the adage 'There is no money in the cure". Mark my words, Autism Speaks will over the next few years patent an assorted and approved prescription drugs for Autism (that is co-mobid conditions of Autism) - Gut related and stress related and sensory dulling drugs and so on. They will no longer focus in any way as Autism being curable.

Why? Money.

No money in the cure. Every Autistic in the world takes a magic pill then it means the magic pill has to be readily available, on prescription, and affordable and it is a one of payload.

Daily gut meds or anxiety med or sensory dullers? That is lifetime stuff right there. That is a big yearly paycheck.

People are political. People do not act in the "best" way and for the right reasons. People are not noble or generous or honourable. Nor are they straight talking or honest. Some individuals are and i am happy to knowsome, but generally people aren't and so long a this is recognised you (collectively used) will not be shat on quite as much as you may otherwise be, by a dishonest greedy backstabbing and cruel society

Me neither...I just cite it to keep it neutral - after checking quality of article to "keep it real" and remind me of the details - bet you haven't got a menopause eating your memory...

Me too, there is nothing to debate, it's a no brainer.

The origins of German Naziism are far different and can be WAY weirder (I think there is even some "out there" stuff about a "theory of eternal ice" in the mix, along with a LOT of fringe science). But the world is full of whacko, extremist political groups most people never take seriously and the origins of some 70million or so people actually "buying in" and Germany as a totalitarian Nazi state are economically related cultural imperatives.

Particularly from the point of view of the cyclic nature of social history...for hundreds of years, until the 1834 poor law, there WAS, effectively, a "welfare state" in the UK, until the Victorians cancelled it and created a hollow "Utopia" where homelessness, prostitution, crime and indigency were epidemic and such charming practices as lifelong institutionalisation, in sub human conditions, effective serfdom (below subsistence in tied accommodation), and lethal "baby farming" were common accepted parts of life that nobody paid any attention to.

...and, of course, I am hanging around gossiping about all this because I should really be wrapping up a future policy submission instead...