My daughter is now in university, studying for her Bachelor of Science.  She tells me that your reporting of the situation is really quite accurate, from her pov as an undergraduate.  And I've seen at first hand, when I was working in the public service, how I'd train young men to do a job, and then watch them use my teaching as a springboard to get higher up the ladder, into a job that I was better qualified for.  It was one of the reasons I left the public service, in fact, to move into the more female-dominated role of preschool teaching.  
Alison

This post was last modified: 09-19-2011 09:49 AM by Alison.

My mother tells me that when she got married back in the 1950's, she was automatically fired from her job.  It was a given that once a woman got married, she would be sacked, no matter how long she'd worked for the company or how good her work was.  Because she would be expected to stay at home and look after her husband, even if he was unemployed.  

Plus, with no easy access to reliable contraception, (knitting needle abortions *shudder*) the woman would also be expected to have to take wodgers of time off work to have a baby and then look after same, breastfeed for a year and then have another one and repeat.  All the while going out of her mind with boredom, with only daytime soap operas and Prince Valium to help.

Now it's accepted that with access to child care and ability to limit number of children, a family can have two adults working and thus be far more stable.  Which I don't think anybody could object to.  

Alison

My argument exactly. I consider myself a feminist (equal pay, equal rights, equal job opportunities etc etc) but the emphasis has always been on equal. I absolutely cannot abide those women who believe we are better and men are nothing more than a necessary aid to procreation and should be demonised, mocked and belittled at every opportunity. Those particular sista's who shout (they always shout, have you noticed?) about speaking up for the woman don't speak for me.

First of all, you're misreading my post.  I don't categorically oppose current feminism.  I oppose the more extreme forms of so-called feminism that involve reverse bigotry and reverse discrimination.

Second of all, by saying that you "have suffered more oppression than [I] could possibly every comprehend," you are embodying everything that is wrong with the affirmative action attitude.  You seem to think that the adversity that you claim to have faced because of your gender is worse than any form of adversity anyone else could have faced.  Is there no adversity in the fact that I'm an Aspie who went undiagnosed for 21 years?  Is there no adversity in the fact that I'm a victim of domestic abuse?  (And don't get me started about how a lot of people think that all abusers are men and all victims are women, which only adds to the adversity!)  You have every right to work to change things if you feel that you have been mistreated.  However, you are being cruel and selfish to deny that there are others who have faced other problems just as bad or worse.  You are being cruel and selfish to vilify those who wish to point out that there are other sources of adversity in the world than those that you have experienced and other people who also deserve a fair shot.

At this point, I've said my piece and I'll be withdrawing from this discussion.  It's one thing to have an honest debate on the merits of the arguments made, but it's a waste of my time to debate with someone who sees fit to deliberately misconstrue my words and belittle me because of my demographic.  My time would be better spent elsewhere.

This post was last modified: 09-19-2011 05:15 PM by Shoneh.

Bitter axe-grinding fool is BITTER.

Unconvinced Kapkao is UNCONVINCED. Disillusioned Cynara is DISILLUSIONED. Well spoken Shoneh is WELL-SPOKEN.

Any workforce you'll face a discrimination part of it, no matter how difficult it is to deal with it... then we'll see.

No true feminist is in favour of reverse discrimination. Do you think that because I am favour of a few scholarships for oppressed groups, that I am favour of reverse discrimination? Sorry, but that argument does not make sense. We need far more assistance for oppressed groups just to break the stronghold that the Patriarchy has on the inner sanctum.

Now take Physics, for example. I started my first degree in 1986. In all the years of study since then, and there have been many, I never had a single female teacher, supervisor or mentor in theoretical physics. I know of only a handful of female professors in theoretical physics WORLDWIDE. We are not just talking about the remnants of some Stone Age world views from 1972. This is the present. You should not be fooled by all the smart women around you, who appear to be succeeding. I was such a young woman once, confident that things would improve through the 80s and 90s. They did not, and I have witnessed every tiny backwards move towards further, not less, discrimination.

This post was last modified: 09-20-2011 12:24 AM by mdsheppeard.

Yes, sadly little has changed in 30 years, since women began studying science freely. In some ways, it is even harder for this generation, because they are more worldly and expected to work harder, to fit into the sometimes corrupt, not only sexist and racist, culture. I hope your daughter does well, anyway.

I'm sorry, Genesis, but I can't quite make out what you mean here. It is true that sexism is everywhere, but I'm afraid it is far more extreme in the physical sciences than in most industries. I know this from first hand experience, having held a very wide range of jobs.

Actually, I believe I used the word People, not the word Me. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

The idea that feminism is some battle of the past that has been fought and decided is, of course, ridiculous. Some of the comments on this thread demonstrate that very clearly. I guess I'm going to have to steer my daughter towards a field where she will get a fairer go.

Or do the best you can to ensure that her options aren't limited by her gender, and bring her up to have the strength and self confidence to challenge injustice and discrimination.

I pity the fool that tries to discriminate against my daughter. At not-quite-3-years-old she is definitely an alpha female. She certainly didn't inherit that character trait from me, although I always try to build up the self confidence of both my kids as much as I can.

From who? Allison? Mdshep? I can't speak to the Austrailia of the 70s, but where I am from, the natives were very frisky back then. Reading about female orgasms, if anything, would have been encouraged according to my understanding of that Globe-Trotting era.

And hippies believed in "free love", at least until the schizos and lowlifes moved in.

Are you confusing the sexual revolution with feminism?

Yes, women were finally allowed to have orgasms in the 70s.