There wouldn't be much point in my thinking through the level of income  required to sensibly give children the best opportunities in a country I don't live in. I imagine US citizens would require much more, because the US has far fewer public services. If you look down the world rich list, the nobel prize- winner list, the people in space, the CEOs of powerful companies, Supreme Courts in any country, the recent Presidents of the US, they all had  very expensive private educations.

I give up.... all I am trying to point put to you one thing, and all you see is Dollar/Pound signs out of nothing.....

This post was last modified: 07-26-2011 04:25 AM by Genesis.

I will mention a few points. I had the best education money could buy and so did my children. You cannot begin to get in where I went and especially my daughter who is at school with the wealthiest people in the nation. Sorry, I won't mention who attends, but I do meet them myself and my daughter often goes to their house and they come here.

And some abusive people should not have children under any circumstances, but the poor? Please, a lot of them are the happiest and best parents I know and their children are amazing.

It will obviously be hard to convince her. Seriously....

Although I don't think you have to be wealthy to have children.  I do think you need to have a budget that can support the needs of a child along with the willingness to sacrifice yourself.  
My parents were poor, but I think they were perfect.  My father worked hard to put the bread on the table despite a disability and my mother was a loving wife and mother, a homemaker and a childrens teacher in the church.  They taught me the value of work, money, and of giving.
Most of the children that I've met who end up in foster care do come from poor families, but not all.  There are also rich and highly intelligent people out there who beat their children.

I do agree though, that there is a surplus of children out there without homes, and feel that it is preferable to adopt rather than add to it, unless the parents really want that.

This post was last modified: 07-26-2011 04:50 AM by ArianiaAmy.

+1 Kudos

If only the rich were allowed to reproduce, and the trend went on for decades, there would be ramifications.  Where would the labor come from; either directly or indirectly; to produce the goods and services the rich would want to/have to consume?  Who would pay the taxes for which the state could ultimately protect the interests of the rich?

You could never have a society where everybody is rich.  It's not possible.  Wealth would be divided.  The most saavy, the strongest, the smartest and those with special state protection would remain among the rich.  While everybody else in that society (or from adjacent societies to fill the gap) would be poor.

At it's best, a society could develop a sizable middle class.  This is what happened with the United States in the 20th. century.  But as the economy globalized, it was not possible to sustain a very common middle class when labor could be had in countries without labor laws or widgets could be produced by robots.  The 1950's United States was charactetrized with a middle class who enjoyed a good and increasing standard of living.  Most products consumed by Americans were made in America.  The wealth disparity (and wage disparity) between the richest and the poorest was not as wide as it is today.  Sure in modern America, we have more conveniences such as microwaves and fast food outlets.  But Americans have become dependent on these because most households now require two incomes (meaning two working parents) in order to make ends meet.  It's a kind of conundrum.

Now countries like Monaco, Kuwait and Dubai come to mind.  These are very small countries.  Supposedly the citizens of these countries are all rich.  (I've only read articles, not performed extensive research into this.)  The citizens of these countries may all be rich, but they are dependent on imported labor from poor countries such as the Philippines, India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.  These rich citizens need somebody to clean the mansions, prepare the food, take care of their children, etc.

Another thing to look at is the demographics of developed countries; particularly European countries and Japan, and to a lesser extent, the United States.  These countries have aging native populations.  With rising standards of living, the desire to have better standards of living, and the availability of birth control, these countries saw declines in the birth rates.  To make up for the gap for necessary labor, immigrants from poor countries aspiring for better lives come in.  Macroeconomically speaking, there needs to be some kind of working, tax paying base in order to support the aging members of these societies.  In these societies, the working immigrant poor may contribute very little individually; but collectively they support the elite (in this case, the aged natives) with their labor and taxes collected on their earnings.  This is far from an ideal model if the immigrants themselves (or their offspring) do not value good education, advancement of skills, innovation, etc.  (Of which certainly paved the way for the emergence of the American middle class).

In Israel, Jews have far lower birthrates than Palestinians.  One time I read that the Palestinians need not necessarily eliminate Israel as a sovereign nation through violence.  All they have to do is keep having babies and eventually there will be no more Jews (or the few that remain will be very insignificant, for there is power in numbers) to occupy what is now known as Israel.

The idea is that children would get equal opportunity not that they would all end up rich necessarily. Also, there is nothing wrong with imported labour, particularly when the world had a population problem.

I'm sure we're aware that 7 billion is possibly going to happen.

Horrifying isn't it?

Yes, there are becoming too many people for the earth to support. My small contribution is replacement level only.

Horrifying that you're worrying about it... yes....

Horrifying that I know that there is research on another Earth-type environment is being looked out upon but not for awhile...... Waiting and seeing what happens....

The current population of the planet is approximately 6,933,400,000 according to Wikipedia. If not for the effect of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa it would already be well past 7 billion.

So I'd say that 7 billion is more than just possible. It is effectively inevitable.

Many methods have been tried to limit population, including trying to discourage the poor from breeding. And there is only one thing that has been proven repeatedly to be effective - increasing the education of women (of course this is usually accompanied by improvements in women's rights and equality of opportunity and wages).

Well, when Vernu and I got married, we were living on very little money, as he was going through university at the time and we were living on the one wage (at the time, mine) of around $18,000 Australian dollars per year.

Lauren was born not long afterwards.  I'm an excellent parent and so is Vernu.  We were poor and through our own efforts now own are own house and have enough income and savings that I'm finally able to get a university education.  Three or four years from now, all three of us will have Bachelors: two of science, one of language.  

So it's not really how much money you make that matters, but how you manage your resources so that you can maximise the outcome, as we've done.  

I like how Marcia put it, it's the poverty of expectation that makes the difference.  People who probably don't make the best parents (I feel informed enough to comment on this because I've met so many when I was a preschool teacher) don't think that deeply about being parents and what's expected.  And instead of stopping people having children, I feel we should focus more on improving the services for those that are here and struggling.  

And just because my parents were struggling farmers when I was growing up, I'm very glad they had me when they did!  At home I was very happy, it was a good life when I didn't have to mix with NTs who tormented me.  And I'm certainly catching up on the educational gap now: a Distinction in sociology, a Credit in Kanji, and a good pass in the rest.  

Alison

As we all know, life is good, live a little and relax...