My son is really difficult at bedtimes now.  Husband and I can trace it back to 3 months ago when he started talking about a dream he had and it did sound scary.  Also coincides with an underground gold mine tour we did, our son was really interested in mining but after the tour he stopped talking about it for ages.  Prior to this, bedtimes weren't really a problem.

In his room, he'll get in that super high anxiety mode where he's laughing hysterically; hitting his father (laughing uncontrollably), screaming, getting angry and squealing things like "I'm not tired you idiot!" to his dad, kicking the wall, getting out of bed etc etc.

It's rare now that he goes to bed before 11:30.  Husband has been letting him go back and watch a DVD as it's the only way to get him to calm down, and when it's finished he's more likely to go to bed without as much of a fuss.

Now we are simply putting him to bed much later, because any attempts to try before that result in the same hysterics and physical aggression (mostly targetted at his father, who does the bedtimes).  But even so, leading up to bedtime my son starts getting in to high anxiety mode and last night was pretty bad because he actually bit his dad, something he hasn't done before.

We believe there's a definite fear/anxiety about bed time.  We've asked son about it and he just laughs and says "I'm not scared, it's just that bedtime is so borrrring!"  This confirms our suspiscions because he says "I'm bored" when something is bothering him.

During the day he's fine, has his moments but this anxiety only occurs at bedtime.  He's not aggressive otherwise.  Again, has his moments but most of the time I see him go to hit, or hit hard (me or his dad when he's either angry or starting to be 'silly') but he holds back.  So the self control is definitely there in the calmer moments, but not when he's worked up.

We don't see a psychologist because our son doesn't respond well to that and frankly, we're tired of these professionals having no clue about kids like ours.  Also, our son says some 'shock' things to get reactions from people and let's just say we're pretty certain the time will come when a professional  will take it the wrong way and want to report us all.  We have a counsellor and another special ed therapist who know our son well and are prepared to write statements saying our son is not 'disturbed', or anything like that and that he does this stuff for the reaction and that he doesn't fully understand some of the terminology he's using.

We have tried behaviour management strategies, but they only work for a very short time.  We get our son to fill in reward charts, where he gets to choose the reward and that he doesn't have to wait too long for them (some rewards are next day, or the bigger ones take a couple of days).


After last night's episode, I'm now considering some kind of sedative.  Husband and I are very anti-medicating but clearly our son is in a state of distress at bed time.  Last night I ended up sleeping on his bottom bunk to get him to go to sleep, which he did, at midnight.  Also, when we're trying to stop ourselves from being hurt (in the dark too, in his bedroom), our son is accidently hurt, for example my husband put his hand up to cover his face in the dark but my son was moving forward, so my husband's hand hit him in the mouth (not on purpose of course).  but this triggers meltdowns of "you hurt me!" and makes things worse for a while.  Also, the relationship with his father is not that great, he's always saying he hates his dad, wants him to leave, etc.  So my husband doing the bedtime routine contributes to the anxiety.

When our son is in these states, no amount of explanation will work, but when he's calm his cognitive ability kicks in and he gets it.  We don't yell or smack our children, but it's getting more difficult to remain calm when he is being physically aggressive.

We have an antihistamine that can produce a sedative effect, as our son has eczema and gets itchy, but he refuses to take it because of the taste.  But we are thinking perhaps he needs something a bit 'stronger' to help him relax in the evenings and go to bed without the anxiety.  We had a counsellor who was really good with him and adored him, but it wasn't helping with the anxiety stuff.


Anyone here with personal experience?  We don't want to medicate our son as we believe the solution for him is behavioural approaches and basic parenting strategies, but this anxiety at bedtime is another beast entirely and we don't like knowing he's freaking out like this because he's quite possibly scared of something.

Opinion :

overtired can express itself as hyperactive or hysterical

(many parent of many a child has seen this)

If the sleep cycle has been disturbed it really needs to be reestablished... to find the circadium rythym.... (ther is much written on this and this kind of thing has to be folowed to the letter every songle day, consistently... (and  so many spectrum kids NEED absolute routine... ie Wind down time should be started at the same time every night.  Food times should be the same... waking up should not allow dvd watching...

DVD watching of interesting but non threatening (non scary, ) and relaxing movie/show can be prior to bedtime... a bed time does need to be established.

I totally understand and agree about seeing an outsider-- God know what they would do, write etc.,..

(P.S. Also, I noted that our son when under stress or overtired or out of routine is totally UNABLE to make a choice and stick with it... (changes mind with feelings of sadness instead of happiness about the reward) sometimes giving choices (of rewards) is too stressful and needs to be simplified... we stopped the choices - he would blame one of us for making him make a choice and wasting his reward... I don;t know if you know what I mean by this...)

I can relate to the difficulties coinciding with the gold mine tour.  My son started having even more problems than usual going to sleep after a school trip to a Viking centre, elements of which he found scary even though he had told me that he'd enjoyed it and had spoken positively about the trip.  Once I found out what the problem was we talked about it, and his solution was to sleep with his Bible under his pillow.  Actually, I think he only did this once and the problem stopped.

Similar problems in the past were solved by opening wardrobe and cupboard doors at bedtime and leaving them open all night.  Again, this was his idea and it was related to fears about monster lurking in those places behind closed doors.  We had to do that for a few months and it helped him get to sleep much more quickly.

I have no idea whether this would help your son or not, but my suggestion would be that you change his sleeping environment.  Do it with him as a fun activity and encourage him to make suggestions as to what could be changed and as far as possible implement those changes.  Rather than connecting it to these bedtime problems you could instead look at it as an effort to make his room more "grown-up", less "babyish", whatever you know will please him.  Maybe there are old posters which he had outgrown and could be replaced with other things which fit more with current interests.

Hopefully, as you work together on this project he may open up about what is bothering him and you can tackle it more specifically.  Or maybe making changes and having some control over his environment will make going to bed there a more positive experience.

It did cross my mind that it might help if his father didn't put him to bed, but I think that would not be helpful in the long run.

Good luck!

My aspie kiddo is very difficult at night as well.  He becomes very hyperactive and stims like mad.  I give him melatonin.  It works great for a while, but gradually they get used to it.  Start with 3 mg.  Buy the pills (its a supplement in the vitamin aisle at the grocery store) and a pill crusher.  I crush it up and mix it with a few tablespoons of yoghurt or applesauce.  He has it about 20 minutes before bed.  

He's taking the maximum amount right now, and its no longer working   I guess his body is used to it.  For a while we were witholding it on weekends so that he wouldn't become too used to it, but that's not working anymore either.  I've got to get him sleep meds.  I guess its not uncommon for aspie kiddos to need sleep medicine.

thank you both.  Yes, he is definitely overtired and for the hours before that he's rubbing his eyes, yawning etc.  I tried a schedule on the visual board, it worked once but then it was back to "but I'm not tired at those times, change the times!"  

having a quiet time in his room isn't always easy because my younger child is asleep in the room opposite and sometimes our son makes a lot of noise, sometimes deliberately shouting in the corridor (when he's in high anxiety mode).

At first I was angry that my husband was letting him get back out of his room to go and watch a DVD because it was just reinforcing/rewarding the undesired behaviours, but I see now why husband felt there was no other option.

I agree the internal sleep 'clock' needs to be reset but at this stage, I can't see how we can even hope to achieve that, with my son's antics  

atypical, thanks for the understanding about seeing an 'outsider'.  We have recently had a horrible experience with a so-called "I help ASD kids" service provider completely misinterpreting our son's words, telling us he's ADHD and needs medicating and other things.  It's honestly made me too scared to sign my son up for activities because I'm sure the time will come where someone reports us, or calls the child services to report this 'disturbed child'  

Marcia, yes I can identify with the Viking tour!  I remember reading a story when I was young, where a girl said she would sleep completely covered apart from her ear, so she could still hear the monsters.  Freaked me right out and I slept the same way for ages after that and my son is far more sensitive than I was!

When we went on the tour, one of the children asked how many people have died and Husband and I just looked at eachother and thought "uh oh, this is NOT going to help us..."

A friend of mine is in to energy healing type stuff and her 3yo daughter was having nighttime anxiety so my friend would do some massage thingy, and got her daughter to choose a colour and shape for 'sleep time'.  The colour and shape didn't mean anything of course but it was so the child could feel some element of safety and control.  This works well for their child but doesn't on ours.  He's in to robotos and mechs so I drew him a picture of my mech that I think of when I feel scared, and I stuck it on his wall and said he could borrow my mech.  Didn't really work either...

I have been thinking about changing his room to help with this.  He has that Ikea loft bed thing with the detatchable canopy.  We did notice improved sleeptime with the canopy but that was quite a while ago.  I might try the canopy again, in case the coccooned in feeling helps (which is why we bought this particular bed in the first place).

We think his bad dream is related to that Plants Vs Zombies game, which he is pretty obsessed with.  We don't have it at home but his dad takes him to computer sections at department stores and they play it on the display iPads (no, I'm not happy about this).

He likes designing so I'll get him to draw a map of his bedroom and talk about the things he wants on the walls, but the problem with that is he would suggest inappropriate things, like war vehicles (much to my great annoyance, our son saw a war strategy computer game with those little robots and vehicles, no people or blood, and he's been obsessed with it ever since and I'm trying hard to make him 'forget' that interest because it's part of the inappropriate stuff he says to people which can be misinterpreted and get us in trouble... hmmm, other non-ASD kids can play cops and robbers without people batting an eyelid but when it's an ASD kid, suddenly it's all "violent tendencies!  Medicate him!"...)

It looks like I may be the one to have to do the bedtime which sort of bothers me, because it would be creating a pattern where he is more dependent on me and would therefore be more resistant when my husband does it.  perhaps we can do an alternating schedule or something.

AspieMomma thank you too    I tried editing my post as you and I posted at the same time but for some reason my edit didn't show up.  My concern too is that a sedative would eventually have no effect and also that my husband i would use it too readily as there are some nights where we feel we're losing our minds ourselves!

My almost-6yo aspie son is difficult to get to bed, although he doesn't usually have the same levels of anxiety that you describe. The main problem seems to be that his sleep patterns are irregular (and always have been), some nights he doesn't want to sleep at all and some days he falls asleep not long after he gets home from school and sleeps all the way through to the next morning.

Does he have some favourite music that you can play in his room that might help him to relax? Does he have a favourite soft animal toy that he can cuddle that makes him feel safe?

In terms of fear and anxiety, my son gets really scared of things that don't seem scary at all, and when he is watching cartoons he often spends half the time hiding somewhere around our apartment, peeking around a corner at the TV to see if it is "safe" to watch again. And yet he has no fear at all of some things that most kids would find genuinely scary.

hi, no to the music ("I hate music!") and he does have a toy he prefers but he's never been in to cuddling it for bedtime (sometimes I think he doesn't want to look like a baby!)

I also forgot to mention that about 2.5 years ago my grandmother died, right after that my son would ask questions like "what happens if the earth stops turning" and getting really upset.

He was once watching a space doco about the earth eventually getting swallowed up by the sun, stuff like this upsets and scares him.

leaving a night light on is not really an option because he gets out of bed when there's the slightest bit of light to see his way around.  I tried a lavender scented pillow (I know some cultures do this for babies to sleep well) but it didn't work ("mummy what stinks?!")

I've tried to get him to tell me about what's going on, in different ways, but he puts on the bravado act.  he does this when things upset him, for example he read about kids in the third world dying from contaminated water and he did the tragic-cry face (when he's really very upset) but then he starts doing this huge fake laugh and saying "ha ha, those kids died from the dirty water!"  He can't handle sadness as an emotion and turns it in to anger or a complete kind of overreacting laughter.

I think this happens with fear too, he can't handle it so anger and hysterics are easier to 'feel'.  I understand this, if I'm honest I'd say anger is far easier for me than sadness, because the sadness can be very intense.

Kiddo always sleeps well if he has some exercise in the evenings.  I had him at the playground for about an hour before dinner and bed time, and he was asleep by 9.  Swimming is the absolute best.  

The nice thing about melatonin is that it is a supplement, nothing strong at all.  I take it when my insomnia gets bad.

thanks, I forgot to mention he does go to sleep easier when there's been exercise, but not always  

Last night was fantastic, no drama whatsoever.  He did start after dinner time (he starts doing karate on us, I keep telling him I'm not going to teach him karate until he can use his limbs respectfully).  He was pretty good during the day so I gave him his next reward, which was that Operation game.  We played it in his bedroom and he was very calm and happy.  Then his dad came in to do the bedtime routine and there wasn't a single problem.

Husband will take him swimming in the evenings too, or they go out for walks to the park or something while I'm putting my other child to bed.

Update:

We haven't had any of the drama lately.  For about 5 nights in a row he was fantastic.  What we did was spend time with him in his room playing games, reading to him and so on.  My husband also takes him out to a park or to get an icecream before that, to help calm him down and make him happy (and more compliant!)  he's still falling asleep very late, as late as midnight a few times, but if it's what we have to do for now, we're happy.  Baby steps!  We homeschool and work from home, so getting up early for work/school doesn't apply and we all like our late morning wakeups  

He had two nights after that which weren't that great (not as bad as previously though).  on both the 'bad' days, he'd played a fair bit of computer.  Hmmm, a bit too much of a coincidence for me, as he'd had computer on all the high anxiety days!

We also use a reward chart where he works towards a reward.  He gets a sticker for going to bed well.  We have the reward up high out of reach where he can see it, where possible.

This post was last modified: 03-11-2011 08:47 AM by golaki.

(eeek - I can't help myself-- I read the words "ice cream" and thought - no way is he gong to go to sleep on time after ice cream...)
Foods can be used as medicine to regulate the sleep cycle - milk before bed is allowed - sometimess even a low sugar cereal helps (Some people can't sleep when they are hungry) Sugary things (juices , fruits too) should not be given within 2 hours of bed time... just my opinion of course.

As my kids are older now, even they know I am a bit strict with foods at night... Friday night one might ask for ice cream and we are out and it is within an hor of bed time-- I will say yes, but if they get home and are too energetic to go do their night time ritual - the next time I will tell them I will say no... (my 10 year old)

So the reward can be: I say yes more, and get less rigid - if they control themselves...(the fact is and they actually see it- that they can't act properly after some foods and they are self aware) and they might not be able to fall right to sleep- but they will be in bed at the right time - and on weekends that is okay... But weeknights - Boy, I keep a schedule...

the icecream he has doesn't affect his ability to fall asleep, he has come home and gone straight to bed without a problem.  Or, he has the icecream a couple hours before they get home  

Some ideas I used for both myself and my daughter; and yes, I think it sounds as if he's getting WAY too tired, which is only contributing to the bad behaviour.  

First off, is it fear of the dark, do you thinki?  If that is the case, a small lamp left on in the corner all night is a good investment.  My daughter has one of those battery operated fibre-optic ones that can change colours at the touch of a button, but she keeps it on a soft blue at nighttime.  

Secondly, you could try giving him a low-dose antihistamine tablet (not the non-drowsy ones, the ones that make you sleepy!  Phenergan was our sleepy-pill of choice, as it's very mild) a couple of hours before he's due to go to bed.  It doesn't make you sleep, but it does slow active, tired little bodies down enough so that they can relax into it themselves.  

What concerns me is that he's six years old and biting and hitting you both.  It needs to be made clear to him that that sort of behaviour is definitely not going to be tolerated.  Accepting that sort of thing will just let him think he can get away with anything, and make his behaviour even worse as he gets older.  Nip it in the bud now.  Explain to him that it HURTS you, and that if he hits or bites or hurts either of you in any way, then he gets no privileges, things he likes such as video games or whatever will be withdrawn for a certain amount of time, etc.  

Alison

This post was last modified: 03-12-2011 12:44 PM by Alison.