I thought that was how most relatively reasonable people feel. o.O

I see burqas from time to time here, headscarves VERY often.  A city nearby where I live is known to have one of the highest proportions of arabs in the world outside of the middle east, if not the highest, but I've never figured out whether or not that is actually true-- though the national arab-american museum is there, so I would not be surprised. I admit that the women in burqas intimidate me a bit because I can't see their facial expressions (IRONY!) and don't know how to read them, which is offputting, but I am not offended and don't care.  I don't like that women are forced to wear them but I am not going to pretend to understand their culture well enough to tell them what they should do.  We are from different worlds.  When a muslim woman asks for support in obtaining more civil rights I will support them, but otherwise I don't think it's my place to even really have an opinion.  I want to, it's inherent in me to want to protect women from things like this, but if the woman wants to wear it and supports the culture I guess I just have to admit I don't understand and leave her be until she wants my help.

Why should someone be forced to conform to the local culture by force of law? I find that idea far more offensive than any piece of clothe could ever be.

I'd think so too, but my view is "strange" because most people seem to have the opinion that if they're offended by it then that is reason enough to ban it, or the classic "if you come and live here, you must conform to the herd, bah bah bah".

Back where she came from of course!

At least she wouldn't have to go very far...

I saw someone in one at the airport while I was waiting for my luggage. They was also a conspicuously large gap to either side of her, so I stood next to her so I could get to my luggage sooner. And I thought, "If I wanted to make some small talk with her would it bother her? Is she from a country where men and women don't normally interact like that?"

Then I realized i wouldn't make small talk regardless of how she was dressed and went back to waiting for my luggage. Standing next to her did not cause any harm to come to me, though.

I suppose I don't trust the government enough for it to ban anything. Who knows what they'll ban next? I'd rather put that kind of thing off as long as possible. In a different time/political climate/etc I might support banning it, but this is not it. The way I see it, in the current context it's likely only to increase discrimination towards Muslims. I mean, this is not even a predominantly Muslim country, so why are we so focused on some of the cultural practices of a minority of a minority?

This post was last modified: 10-26-2010 01:38 PM by q w e r t y.

Personally, my view is that the burqa should be allowed, for instance in high schools, just keep them in the school uniform colours.  The young girls who wear them will (most likely) tend to rebel if they're allowed to wear them: "none of my friends wear them, they are restrictive, I can't play sport freely in them etc etc."  Whereas if you ban them from wearing them, they will rebel against that: "this is my cultural heritage, you're being racist, etc etc."
So just by using basic psychology and the stubborness of teenage girls in general, you can get pretty much whatever result you want.  
Although for safety's sake people should be cautious.  There was a case here in Australia recently where a young girl wearing a burqa was riding in a go-kart, the scarf part got caught in the wheel and she was strangled to death as the scarf tightened around her neck.  There was also a case of one young lady who tried to go swimming at the beach without taking it off, and drowned when the heavy cloth got waterlogged and pulled her under.  I believe that case prompted the development of a modified burqa that one young woman invented so that girls can go swimming in them safely.  
Alison

This post was last modified: 10-26-2010 01:47 PM by Alison.

In rebuttal:

I never suggested that you don't have the right to be offended. Please read my statement carefully. I have a tendency to say precisely what I mean.

It's all on a spectrum. What makes one form of dress acceptable and not the other? Both conform to religious and legal rules on the subject. What differentiates one from the other? In your opinion, the hijab is clearly covered by the free practice of religion, while the burqa is not. However, if, today, your reform is successful and we ban the burqa, what is to prevent someone else from banning the hijab tomorrow? The precedent will have been set for the government interfering in the free exercise of religion, merely because some members choose to dress outside of cultural norms. Shall we ban punk rockers next?

These two statements strike me as being extremely prejudicial. While it is true that you would expect the more devoted followers of a religion to adopt more extreme behavior relative to their host culture, it's unfair to make the generalization that everyone who wears a burqa is an extremist.

As for your views of the oppression of women, in Western countries, an individual cannot force any adult to wear any article of clothing that he/she chooses not to. No one has the right to force another to practice a religion in a certain way. Do you feel that women are oppressed because they wear burqas and men do not? If so, you are correct that a double standard exists, but you cannot fault a woman for willingly choosing to conform to a standard that has been set by religious authorities. Double standards for the sexes exist in almost all Western religions. If, for whatever reason, a woman believes that wearing a burqa is the key to eternal salvation, who are we to disagree with her? And suppose for a moment that this is a correct belief that accurately reflects the real world. Do you have the right to potentially stop her from eternal salvation just because you feel uncomfortable?

Gareth is absolutely right.

And if they did wear the burqa? What then? Would you stop being friends with them? Would you feel the need to proselytize them with your beliefs, merely because they are expressing their own? Would you continue to be friends with them, but silently disapprove of their choice of expression? Or, perhaps, would you learn to accept them and their expression for what it is?

Somehow I find the last choice extremely unlikely.

Totaly ban it and the headscarf too. They are not religious symbol, they are political symbol. It's muslim trying to impose on us there mentality. They even ask here in Canada to be allowed to go through islamic tribunal (Charia) instead of regular one. They are making honnor killing in our country etc. If they dont like it, they can go to islamic country where they can dress like they want and killed all the women they want.


/edit No where in the Coran the burqua is mentionned. It's an Arabic tradition that as imposed itself on the muslim world. So it is not a religious matter, but a political one.

This post was last modified: 10-26-2010 02:42 PM by Vampslord.

In this country, the UK, both Jews and Muslims have the options of going through their respective courts for civil matters - however, both parties have to agree, and the CPS (Crown Prosecution Service) is still the overriding force - if one party disagrees, then it's off to the regular courts with ye.

People have an obligation to be offended?

I knew a muslim girl once. She had some pretty neat hijabs. Didn’t get to know her perspective on the big focus on Islam in our country however.

I stayed in a hotel in Bangkok once. Because it was during a Middle Eastern holiday, and because the location of the hotel was just about on the edge of the "Arab Quarter", there were a number of women staying there who were wearing the burqa. There was only one lift, and it was rather disconcerting when the lift would stop at a floor, the doors would open and there was nobody standing there. Then suddenly a ninja figure would stick its head out from the side of the lift and (seeing a man in the lift) dart back into hiding. My heart almost skipped a beat the first couple of times that happened. The ladies in the burqa are also a bit confusing when you see them on a staircase, as it is not immediately apparent (until the direction of movement can be determined) whether they are going up or down the stairs.

When I was in Pakistan, being as little as I could remember, I just remember Traditional Pakistani fashioned clothes. Of course Pakistan has tribal areas, and the Tribal areas may or may not have their women wear Burqas. Even in Swat Valley or anywhere else in Pakistan you'll see head scarfs and Sari's. So if there really is a ban on it, then so be it.

Once again, you are sadly confused and mistaken. I never said the Burqa should be banned or that there should be a law against it. I said I am offended by it. I said I don't like it. I happen to believe it IS a sign of oppression of women. That is my right. I can believe anything I want. I have not attacked you for having a different opinon. Why are you attacking me for my opinion?

And how can you possible compare being a Punk to wearing a Burqa? They are as opposite as they can be. I know this because I was a hard-core punk for many years. Dressing as a punk, is a form of self-expression, and is often a rebellion against society. I feel lucky that I live somewhere that I could express myself in that way. Wearing a Burqa is the opposite of freedom of expression. It is absolutely a form of oppression, IN MY OPINION. I believe the women that wear them don't know any better. I believe that they have no choice, and that many of them would not be allowed to leave their homes at all if they were not wearing one. I also believe that it is not stated anywhere in the Qur'an that a woman should wear a Burqa. I think that it is an extreme interpretation of modesty, and is done for the benefit of the men, and to the detriment of women. And as I stated previously, I do not like any form of religious extremism, which this cleary is, to me.

By the way, if one of my friends decided that they had to wear a Burqa, I would respect that choice. I am fairly certain that it is a most unlikely possiblity that any of them would ever make such a decision.

This post was last modified: 10-27-2010 10:58 PM by wendyl.

I think that you should be allowed to wear them, but no one can make you.  Forcing women to wear burqas should be banned, the burqas themselves? Not so much.  I mean, sometimes it's just a fashion statement.

This post was last modified: 10-27-2010 10:59 PM by AspieGrrl.