Well, attitudes, motives, feelings, whatever. The point will remain that most people do believe they do know theirs, most of the time. It's one thing when somebody says, 'you seem anxious' and you know you are a bit worried about something. Or even if you weren't aware of it before but you agree or later decide you were, after all. That's all consistent with the point in question. None of that requires changing that. If anything, it all supports it.

This thread doesn't apply to motives....but incorrect actions....even if you had done something of a noble motive....if your actions caused harm...you would apologize.

Now with this....I must go to bed...I will answer more in about 13 1/2 hrs.  Thank you again for your conversation and questions....you have kept me busy....see you.

It'd have to be by mistake. That'd be fine in areas where the 'harm' or 'good' was clear and could be seen. Mostly, in the area in question, of course, it isn't. I mean, if I bumped into somebody, I'd know I'd done it and could say sorry. They'd probably accept it was an accident and that'd be the end of it. Thank you for the discussion, too!

There are people who do evil....they purposely do harm...frequently to elicit a reaction from the aggrieved that the perpetrator could point to publicly to gain political advantage in some manner.

Is this what you mean?

No, where did that get in? Until and unless it becomes clear people are playing such games, I've no way to know.

So you have a hard time understanding your own motives?  You think others have a hard time understanding theirs?  You wonder how a person can tell if there actions are right or wrong?  

I am sorry...I still don't understand what you are asking...or are you?  Are you making a generalized statement?

In the area we were discussing, there's only claims and other claims. You'd know if you bumped into somebody, even by mistake. It'd probably be accepted you hadn't meant to. It would definitely not be called arrogant to think you'd know if you'd done that deliberately or not. In your egs, the people would know what they were doing, too.

No, definitely not.  We are talking actions and results....cause and effect....these are in the realm of the Objective...not the Subjective.  

If, through your actions or inactions...regardless of motive....you cause a loss to another...you apologize.

Unfortunately, in the other area,  the connection isn't as clear. I can say sorry for bumping into somebody because I can tell I've done it and I can expect them to accept my statement that I didn't mean to. The idea of an apology used to be that you'd at least try not to do whatever it was again. If I've not really any idea what I did, I thus can't, really, apologise. If it's about some 'way', I must, as was always told, be able to tell that, say, I was arrogant, etc. Back to the problem. It is not agreed that I'd know. Yet the people that claim it's arrogant for me clearly have to think they can tell theirs. It's incredible how much more complicated this gets when I discuss it than it ever was in practice.

OK...you are saying...as an example...when you do things that you hadn't realized you had done ...you can't apologize for it?  If so...you could say that you were unaware that you had done such a thing.  

Part of personal responsibility is being aware of your surroundings.  Although you may do something that you were unaware of....there is usually evidence of it.  To walk down an isle and there was nothing on the isle floor at first....then you hear a crash behind you as you walked by....just because you hadn't felt brushing up against it....perhaps your cart or bag had tugged at it......perhaps the item was stacked in an unstable fashion....however...part of being aware is to notice those types of things ahead of time (noticing a lack of symmetry) - it ties into basic survival...you must notice unstable structures before getting into harm's way.

Well, in your eg, again, there'd be clear evidence. If I give up believing I know my own motives, etc, I don't see the basis for believing others know theirs. I never claimed to be able to judge others in such ways. If question raised, how'd I know motives of person teaching how to tell what people's motives are? That'd be impossible for me as I'd be responsible for choosing the teacher and would thus need to be able to tell their motives, which I can't. Besides, for nearly 30 years, it was clearly and simply agreed that every one had to believe they did know their motives, etc. Am I really to wonder what, say, your motives are, then? How resolve that, as I can't tell and, apparently, neither can you? Who can? How would you or I know? Raises far more questions than it can even claim to answer!

No...people generally know their motives...that is how they generally know others' motives....it just is not certain.  A person's motive can be elusive....especially when they wish it to be.  Take statements at face value....take actions at face value....judge Objectively.  Look at your history with them....are they usually coarse?....their motive doesn't matter...you don't want to be around them anyway.  

Don't try to divine a person's motive...especially in life around those in which contact is extremely limited already.  Judge by the action.  If it is a wrong action...a correct apology is in order...regardless of motive.  Never mind motives...you can never fully realize motives....actions...especially over the long term tells of true motives....it can't be simpler than that.  That is why talk is considered cheap.

Well, that needs people who agree with your approach. In that case, there'd be no problem as they'd not be continually judging my motives, etc. Only there is such a problem. So, those people don't agree with your approach! Oh, well. As soon as I can empty my mind of EVERYTHING...!

You cannot go through life expecting all around you to be a good person....there is evil out there....evil people with evil desires.  You should always prepare yourself to be able handle situations...if anything...just by being able to ignore someone safely...

Build your body through strength training.  Just by having a strong body....people will tend not to be rude in the first place.  There will also be an air of confidence about you that others respect.  I teach my son strength training for just such a purpose...besides it becoming a passion in life....and teaching him many positive lessons in life.

Don't care. For 30 years, the point in question was agreed by everybody that expressed an opinion. Before church and there. That is all. Don't know what happened to it.