I like that comparison. You know, because I am an Aspie I am compelled to be honest. When someone who is not an Aspie asks me what it is like to be an Aspie I do become apprehensive and defensive. This negative response is based on my experience that NTs are always looking for a way to enhance their own status based on the information that I give them.  For example, I am currently going through some court proceedings related to a financial crime that was done to my family. Through the process I must continually educate people about my autism. I generally get one of two responses, either the issue of autism goes ignored or it is used to profit some professional who believes that through the use of therapy or other means my issues can be resolved. I'll be more specific. I show up for an appointment with each of my shoe laces a differnt color. This makes sense to me, because why should I buy a new package of shoe laces just so that my shoe laces will match? It is logical to me that it is not necessary to have matching shoe laces. But NTs would see this as evidence that I am somehow mentally defecient. In fact, what I need is for others to realize that I am a whole person and not in need of any intervention. I need my identity to be recognized as a valid existence.  I think that there are all sorts of day to day judgements that are imposed on us as Aspies because we are cognitively different than NTs.  Does that help for you to understand? If you would like, I would even be willing to help in the developmental editing of your manuscript.  I'm an aspiring writer and I am quite good at giving feedback, but I might not always be able to express myself in ways that you would consider nonoffensive.

This post was last modified: 09-09-2005 08:08 PM by anandamide.

I have googled Neurotypical. I know where it comes from. I have visited the sites.

My use of GD is satirical and ironic.

As for your mixing up sexual preference and gender identity? Oh, my.

I could say terrible things about your lack of awareness, your lack of understanding of the issues. But I'm not going to. Nor do I choose to take offense. Your statement comes from a lack of knowledge.

Dear heart, were you to show up on a TS board, and make that confused statement... well, I don't even want to think of the flames...
I've seen it happen. It's not pretty.

Lack of knowledge is no sin.

The term NT means neuro typical, it is widely used. It is not an insult, even though it started as a humorous way of making a much needed point on how autism is seen.

I dont know why you keep bringing up, we should, or if we did, go to a Gender issues forum, its just adding to the confusion.

I love the shoelace thing! That cracks me up!

And thanks for your offer! I really appreciate it!

You bet, I will call on you!

My conception of Ivor (the character I want to write about) is that he is a cipher to normative perception. But everything in his world-model in his head makes perfect sense. And he is puzzled, annoyed, and even angry, that the world is so illogical, so much nonsense.

And he wins. He beats the lottery four times in a row. He looks at "chaos" and sees pattern, and so saves the world from an asteroid impact.

The bottom-line message I want to express is that normative thinking isn't all it's cracked up to be. People on the margins of society might just be the most valuable of all. "Normal" people are the benificiaries of the "Abnormal" people.

Some say Einstein was autistic. Check out Isaac Newton. Great ideas, life-saving ideas, come from the really odd people in inexplicable ways.

In my education in mathematics and physics, I became fascinated by how wacky many of these people appeared to be. Just about every one of them had "issues". Yet today, their names are attached to theorems that make it possible to land on the Moon!

Yet today, we might label them with a "diagnosis". We might "treat" them. And where would we be? We'd be doing our laundry with rocks down by the river.

Vendaia - sexuality and gender are linked, only a fool could deny that

I should add that this post will be my last on this topic, it looks at risk of starting a flame war (no offence)

No. Let's not go to a gender issues forum...

That wasn't the point of me bringing up my personal situation. I wanted to say something about my sympathy with the issues of stereotyping and diagnoses.

I'm trying to break through to a higher level of trust. I'm trying to say something about marginalization, and that I know how that feels.

Gareth--unless someone is asexual, but can they really be--with sex organs?

Can we really be completely unbiased?  V, you use the words, 'wacky' and 'odd' --- aren't these terms that are subjective, subject to the person defining what is wacky or odd?  The shoelace thing is a perfect example.  Odd to one, logical to another. I was upset to learn that Rain Man was supposed to be an autistic, I thought he was retarded with a 'savant' ability.  How would someone who is 'retarded' view my statement and my point of view?  Or an autistic for whom I labeled as just having nothing in their head except their 'savant' ability? (Of course, I could blame this on the ones who made and acted in the movie for not portraying a person correctly, and instead making a facetless stereotype.)

Still somewhat confused, maybe you could clear it up.

"And he wins. He beats the lottery four times in a row. He looks at "chaos" and sees pattern, and so saves the world from an asteroid impact."

So is he in a tree for the whole book, or was that a metaphor as has been suggested? Is he winning the lottery, or is that a metaphor?
Does he save the world from an asteroid?

If the asteroid is not a metaphor, it seems a highly unlikely occurence, is the book science fiction?

"sexuality and gender are linked, only a fool could deny that"

Check out the fools at http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic2789.htm

"The two terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably in the vernacular. However, in a medical and technically scientific sense, these words are not synonymous. Sex is defined by the gonads, or potential gonads, either phenotypically or genotypically. It is generally assigned at birth by external genital appearance. If an intersex condition is present, one sex is often chosen with the intention of making social interactions and rearing simpler. Gender, on the other hand, is defined by one's own identification as male, female, or intersex; gender is based on legal status, social interactions, public persona, personal experiences, and psychologic setting.

A person's sex is a primary state of anatomic or physiologic parameters. A person's gender is a conclusion reached in a broad sense when individual gender identity and gender role are expressed. An often-used phrase to point out the difference, while an oversimplification, has some merit when dealing with these definitions: sexual identity is in the perineum; gender identity is in the cerebrum. Increasingly, the more subjective sense of gender identity takes precedence in evaluating patient needs. In those instances where a discrepancy exists between sex and gender, compassion and empathy are essential to foster better understanding and an appropriate relationship between the physician and the patient.

Note that gender development and sexual development are not interchangeable terms. The sexual identity that emerges beyond childhood is very clearly a separate entity from gender identity. Aspects of physical sexual growth, eroticism, and eventual sexuality, although closely related to gender, should not necessarily be used to draw conclusions about a patient's gender definitions."

Hey, look, this is not about me. I would not presume to make pronouncements about autism or Asperger's. Don't worry about my issues. I am here to learn about autism and Asperger's. I am not here to hold forth on gender, sexuality, gender dysphoria, gender identity disorder, or any of that crap.

Just don't worry about it. I'm interested in your world view, your sense of life, your experience.

I'd describe that advertisement as exploitative flattery.

If I did so, and the members of your community told me that my character was an unrealistic stereotype, I would pay attention to their concerns and would proceed to revise my story accordingly.  I would not, as you seemed to be doing, respond with a dismissive lecture on the need for conflict in a story and insist that the stereotype was necessary for conflict.

Perhaps that was not your intent.  In the interest of avoiding a flame war, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and to withdraw my comment about professionalism.

The tree was a metaphor. It is a joking description of story structure.

I once was told by my therapist to knock off the metaphor crap and get to the point. I now think a new item should appear in DSM-IV. "Metaphorhiea" - the compulsive use of metaphor in interpersonal communication. That's my diagnosis of me.

Let me try to articulate the basic story premise.

Ivor is a medium-functioning autistic person. He has the ability to see patterns in numbers. His dad is an astronomer working on Near-Earth Orbit Objects. Ivor stims by reciting number sequences. His dad records these numbers, and finds that they fit the criteria established as random sequences. Ivor sees some of the numerical data describing trajectories of Near-Earth Objects. Ivor recites new numbers in these sequences. These conform to cleestial mechanical calculations for these objects. Well, almost. Ivor's numbers don't quite match up. Ivor's numbers predict a collision of a hefty asteroid with Earth. Ivor also gets hold of tables of Lottery winning numbers. Ivor's extensions of these sequences match new winning numbers.

Now what?

Amy, in case V doesn't answer, I'll try and give an answer: they're metaphors.  Writers are always thinking in hypothetical stories or symbols.  The one about the asteroid is saying, imagine what someone could do if they had a special ability.  Picture someone saving the world because of their ability.  It's the idea of someone saving the world because of a special ability that's important but a fictional story to convey the idea is the writer's way.

The tree thing is to illustrate the fact that a story has to have conflict, something bad or a problem happen to the hero or it's boring.  If he does the same thing every day with nothing happening, no one wants to read it.  I'm sure someone can answer this better than me, but it seems that people want to have their emotions engaged--shock, horror, sympathy,  maybe have the main character go on a journey or accomplishes something--interest, excitement, and then have the situation resolved with a good ending--relief, happiness.  You set up the character so he's likable, make something bad happen to him (he has to run up a tree), he goes on a journey or accomplishes something (he catches a rock), resolution (he comes down from the tree).  A complete story.

This post was last modified: 09-09-2005 09:28 PM by betwixt.

Did you make up the term medium functioning? Or have you seen it somewhere? I have never head of it before.

I cannot see how he could predict lottery numbers, its random.

So a skill isn't involved.

The asteroid thing is possible I suppose, but very unlikely, dont know what else to say.

Amy, look at it this way:  NTs sometimes need a made-up story to get a point across.  You can tell them something in a logical way and they don't get it or they get it but their emotions are not engaged so they don't care.  If you put it in story form, they get it and are engaged.  If you say:  an autistic guy with an ability with numbers could help the world be a better place, many people wouldn't listen, wouldn't get it or wouldn't care.  But if you make up a story about an autistic guy and you give him a personality and make him real to the reader and have him do something wonderful (though unlikely), people will listen and come to have some understanding and compassion for this guy (even though he's not real, but he's a symbol of a real person).  I think the problem is that if V doesn't get it right it will be another Rain Man and people will come away with the wrong ideas, yet again.