quoted from another thread, but my answer belongs in this one more than that one.

The main objection I've seen to the DSM V changes from those with an Asperger's DX is that they will cease being so spectacularly special and get lumped in with plain old Autists...as if they're lesser beings.

Well...they're not. We're not. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. I was 'blessed' with the ability to somewhat communicate if I have to. And with a talent for art. Leave me alone to doodle, paint, sculpt, and make pottery and I'm fine, but send me out into the world, into environments not of my choosing, to be on time, to keep track of things I have no interest in, to interact with other people...and I'm a wreck. Disabled.

No, really - I am. I've been drawing social security disability since I was 27. But did I mention I make beautiful pottery?

Personally, I think it's long overdue for Autism to NOT be considered an abnormality to be treated at all costs, but rather a difference to be understood - it's strengths to be encouraged - it's weaknesses to be accepted and ameliorated if absolutely necessary, but by humane methods. Methods which will only come into being through changing focus from a cure approach to an understanding approach.  

I see in the changes proposed for the DSM V an expansion of the Autistic Community, perceived and actual. An inclusiveness that strengthens the argument for Neurodiversity.

This post was last modified: 02-22-2010 06:27 AM by ZodRau.

This can't be happening, please let it be just a hoax please *pinches self* it isn't...

that should have gone...

it's strengths to be encouraged - it's weaknesses to be accepted (and ameliorated if absolutely necessary)

I don't think people in the real world will ever really accept our weaknesses.  We have to compensate for them or avoid them by doing things like working for ourselves.

If only there was aspie-autie jobs that were easy to get to...

Mysterywalker ... welcome ... if belatedly. Now to business ...

You are talking bollocks. Is that plain enough for you?

Taking your rationale of separating your son from the girl coming out of the toilet covered in her own menstrual blood ... the average Joe could say that they would not like their average Jr being classed in the same group as an autist ... i.e. 'human'.

Where then? Parents having to cope alone with their autistic children in fear because the thick end of the population decides that autistic foetuses should be euthanased before thirteen weeks, or after they have been diagnosed. And  don't bother telling me that this is an over the top proposition. Ask the Jews about that. Ask the gays about that. Ask the Hutus about that.

I have to say that I can't imagine why anybody anywhere would have given someone with your predeliction for being so annyoed and utterly unbalanced a gun or any place in the forces  And that it only underlines why the world is in such a pitiable state.

Furthermore, understand that if you are autistic and your son is autistic then likely his son will be autistic (oh and by the way it IS genetic / hereditary), and your refusal to acknowledge the status of autism in all its variety is only going to be handed on to your grandson in his time by your failure to fight for a better and more equitable world culture in your time. I hope you're proud of that. I certainly wouldn't be.

Now, if you are going to deny autism in yourself, why not just sod the blazes off, cos clearly you don't need a site like this, you are part of the master race which has been able to transcend its human frailty. I'd love to watch you fall from that state of grace with a good hard thump. Unfortunately, you are demanding the same thing for your son and his grandson.

<Shakes head> And then autists wonder why some idiot NT social workers autimatically believe that autists don't have the capacity to be parents. Lordy lordy.

Note to the howlers ... I WILL NOT retract or edit. This guy is hugely offensive and contributing to your repression and mine.

I'm perfectly happy for it to be all one spectrum rather than lots of different bits.  Same principle as people who are partially sighted versus completely blind. Both are registered blind, because the difference is one of degree.

What people traditionally thought of as 'classic autism' was very often a combination of low IQ , lack of language, acquired brain injury , epilepsy  or ADHD  etc.  In other words, it wasn't the autism that was causing the differences between them and people at the higher end, it was other co-existing stuff.    I suspect a fair number of people with a low IQ and no language were incorrectly labelled as 'autistic', since often the parents say that they are actually very good at picking up and using social signals, and very sociable by nature, without the usual obsessions.  In other words, it's been a diagnostic mess for ages.

Pure Autism causes social communication problems and a huge need for routine and an amazing ability to concentrate on fine detail in things for ages/months/years/a lifetime.  We share that in common with all on the autism spectrum.  I think if we start from that, and then add in the other diagnoses as appropriate (as one evaluation instead of 10 different ones), we'll have a much better idea of just how difficult life is for someone.

In my case, ok I can talk (often mostly to get myself into social trouble!) and have a high IQ (on some things, and very low on others), but I'm also face blind, dyspraxic, have very major sensory issues, & only 'see' words if I can draw or imagine a picture representing them.  It all adds up to quite a level of disability that isn't reflected in the word 'mild'.  Mild it ain't.

I don't understand why you're so obviously angry, buckthesystem.  I personally think that Asperger's and Autism are not the same thing, although I understand that clearly almost no one agrees with me on that.  My opinion isn't intended as an attack on anyone.

I also think people who are capable of functioning in society need different services than people who aren't.  It doesn't help anyone to have someone who's challenges are mainly in the area of appropriate socialization sitting in the same classroom with a nonverbal child trapped in a cycle of near constant self stemming.  I don't deny that either is human or hate either of them.  

Can't you disagree with me without presuming that I must be full of hate?  I don't even understand where that's coming from.

I don't doubt that there's a risk of Autistic people being aborted due to prenatal testing.

I am not utterly imbalanced.  I've managed quite well as a soldier for over 16 years including 5 deployments to war zones where in no case did I flip out or do anything to support the notion that giving me a gun was a bad idea.  I don't understand why your first post to me would drop to the level of making personal attacks that have nothing to do with the topic of discussion.  Nor do I understand why you presume that my entire lineage down through the ages is doomed to be hopelessly warped on the basis of a few posts I made here.

You're using the word "Autistic" as if it means the same thing as "Asperger's."  Some people may believe that, but obviously I'm not one of them.  I don't claim to be Autistic.  I'm not trying to insult anyone.

"Now, if you are going to deny autism in yourself, why not just sod the blazes off, cos clearly you don't need a site like this, you are part of the master race which has been able to transcend its human frailty. I'd love to watch you fall from that state of grace with a good hard thump. Unfortunately, you are demanding the same thing for your son and his grandson."

Why?  I don't hope anything bad happens to you.  Both my son and I have Asperger's.

"Note to the howlers ... I WILL NOT retract or edit. This guy is hugely offensive and contributing to your repression and mine."

I don't care whether you edit your post or not, but I hope you would engage me in a bit more of a civilized discussion in the future.  You're making all kinds of weird assumptions that I'm basically evil because... what?  I guess because you are convinced my opinion is wrong.  If I thought the world was flat would you assume I was evil, too?  I really just don't get it.

Setting aside whatever specifics of my beliefs that you disagree with and focusing solely on the question of whether the proposed changes to the DSM are a good idea -- if you look at national media coverage on the subject or even this particular thread, clearly I'm not the only person with Asperger's who thinks they aren't a good idea.

- Kory

This post was last modified: 02-22-2010 10:34 PM by mysterywalker.

Well, if you can’t understand that an attack on someone else with autism who happens to be more severely affected than you or your son is an attack on the rest of us, then  you have a lot of learning to do. If you feel the need to dissociate yourself from other autists because of their levels of autism to maintain your own dignity and to ensure you get better treatment than them, then you need some support to understand that an attack on one of us is an attack on us all in many ways.

That argument is so full of holes that it is unreal. There are not necessarily any difficulties with the two types you describe being in the same room. After all, one can’t talk to the others, and the other probably doesn’t want to. However, that slightly flip and ironic point aside, you will achieve no sort of equality for any autist if you split us up as a group to be dealt with. What we need is a common approach which starts with a uniform assessment of the needs of each. What you are proposing is that your son gets pulled out from assoiating with that child simply on the basis that they have apparently conflicting needs, which they don’t. If the two things can be managed sufficiently well to allow both to learn to the best of their abilities, then they should be able and allowed to.

The trouble is that the education and general culture system all too frequently says ... ‘ah, autist ... in that room there with all the others .. ah, normal, you go over there and join society”. Or to put it another way ... “ah, normal ... gun, ammo, uniform, training, usefulness, over there ... ah, autist ... oh for goodness sakes don’t insult us by thinking you can be a soldier!”

Well, if you don’t understand, and I have already told you, then telling you again aint gonna help. But denigrating a young girl because of her traits and the way it affects her, and demanding that your son is kept away from her is, in my opinion, very very close to hate. Viz:

Now if that isn’t denying her the dignity of humanity, decrying her for what she is, and placing her below your son, I don’t know what it is. Furthermore, if it did affect his poor wee fragile humility and dignity, it is surely your job as a parent to teach him that her status is no reflection on him, but that his ability to be compassionate and supportive will reflect upon him very well. Furthermore, it may actually help him with his socialisation. Seems to me the parenting aint that good here.

Oh for crying out loud! You were the one who suggested it, by saying that if you had been diagnosed, or had claimed to be autistic, you wouldn’t have been allowed access to such things. You made it the topic of discussion.

As for your lineage being hopelessly warped ... well, now, you see, that IS offensive. It seems to me that you are describing anybody with autism or Asperger’s as hopelessly warped and that such a status is a ‘doom’. You see, what I was saying was that by your daft attitudes you are entrapping your son and his progeny in the same dark place you seem to think we all are. I didn’t say he or his were doomed. I didn’t say he or his were hopelessly warped.

YOU said all of those things. Seems to me the truth is outing itself here.

I suspect you need to do a little research with your eyes and ears open. Seems to me that you have decided autistic is a bad thing, and so you are denying it in yourself and your son. I have never been on the Autism Speaks site, but from what I hear on here, that is the sort of approach they might be likely to take. It doesn’t exist as an unalterable fact. It is something that can be cured. Drivel. It can be ameliorated at most.

I say again, if you want not to be autistic, then there is really very little point in you being here. You’re not going to get much agreement about that. Furthermore, it is rather against the values of this site to deny autism by use of calculated ambivalence. There have been many discussions here about not accepting elitism. And you ARE elitist. If we take your general tenor and combine it with your separationist stance, it is way too easy to feel insulted.

In fact what you are saying is that the whole impetus of this site is wrong because it combines two things as being the same, or at least closely related. Such ‘sedition’ seems contrary to your presence. In fact it comes a lot close to the sort of thing that gets people banned because they just want to stir up trouble. Are you a troll?

And I don’t hope anyhting bad happens to you. The metaphor refers to you having to swallow some of the BS you punt. I know that irony is not an autistic trait (apparently), and even less an American trait (apparently), but I should have thought that the fall from grace metaphor was pretty well understood in the world.

Well, I base my arguments on experience and what is said. I never called you evil. Wide of the mark to the point of ...oh dear, the howlers don’t let me use that word! ... but not evil. I rarely believe in the concept of evil, as it happens. As to the what ... well, I think I’ve covered that above. And the world is flat. At least it is in a two dimensional monochromatic view, which is pretty much where I think you are. You have said not one thing to convince me otherwise.

Well, we can agree on most of that at least. If you look at the other threads you will see much in common with my thinking.

Well, the thing is that it’s not an attack on anyone.  Maybe I chose my example poorly or used wording that didn’t accurately reflect my intentions.  A girl with that ones particular needs would benefit from services that are very different from those that my son would require.  Therefore I don’t see the advantage to either of them in treating the condition as identical in the school system.  

She needs help in understanding external reality as such and his difficulties are primarily in the area of appropriate socialization and gross motor skills.  It is possible that from a scientific perspective a common cause is involved, which may be why psychiatrists want to abolish the distinction.  However, I think that would be a bad idea because the needs involved are different.

I don’t know what else I could say to stress that I’m not in any way attempting to diminish the humanity or dignity of anyone with any particular diagnosis.  At present someone with a diagnosis of “high functioning autism” probably does belong in the same classroom as my son, because semantics aside it seems pretty arbitrary who they diagnose with HFA and who they diagnose with Asperger’s.  Those are probably the same things in my opinion.  But the solution seems to me to standardize the distinctions between those and “classic autism,” rather than abolishing the distinctions altogether.  Most people who deal with children in school environments on a daily basis are not clinicians and I don’t necessarily trust them to draw or infer subtle distinctions.

No, the problem is not with them being in the same room.  It’s with them potentially receiving identical services.

Yes, the system tends to draw very sharp distinctions.  If I knew of some way to make the system stop drawing sharp distinctions along the lines of “autistic” versus “normal” then I would make that happen.  But I don’t know of any way to do that.  So in my opinion the best way to set any child up for success is to push them toward mainstreaming as much as possible for that individual child.

I don’t demand that my son be kept away from anyone.  I expect him to develop a realistic appraisal of his own strengths and weaknesses and I don’t want the educational system to introduce artificial biases that would skew his perspective.  Maybe if it was a clear-cut physical difference, then it would seem less hateful to you.  For instance, someone confined to a wheelchair should work on strengthening their arms rather than being placed on a track team in the interest of equality or false notions of sensitivity.  

No one benefits when you stare something in the face and willfully pretend that it’s something other than what it is.  This example with the particular girl is getting sort of out of control.  But really, it doesn’t help anyone to have someone who reads above their grade level studying English literature next to someone who’s unable at their present stage of development to understand that they’re being told to read something.  Who do you think would benefit in the situation?  Does it somehow ennoble that girl to place her in a setting where the expectations of the class are beyond her ability to function or does it somehow benefit my son to place him in a setting where the expectations of the class are far below his ability to function?  What practical advantage do you see in this scenario?

It’s like taking the kid in the wheelchair and telling him “walk” over and over again.  Or like putting my son in a chair and telling him he doesn’t have to walk.

And yes, if I had been officially diagnosed they would take my job away.  I am aware of a case now where that’s happening to a junior soldier.  I disagree with it, but my disagreement doesn’t help him any.
The “hopelessly warped” thing – what I meant was that you seem to think I’m giving my son a terrible upbringing and in turn he’ll give his son a terrible upbringing and so on and so on.  I didn’t say anything about people with Autism or Asperger’s being warped or doomed.  I don’t think you’re trapped in a terrible dark place.  I was responding as an individual to insults you specifically made about me and my outlook.  The point actually had nothing to do specifically with Asperger’s or Autism or any large group of people at all.

This is where you say things like “the truth is outing itself here” and I just feel confused and how completely sideways the whole discussion has gone from anything I said or intended.

I don’t believe that Autism or Asperger’s can be cured.  In fact I think that whole notion is pretty creepy as if to say that a person could be cured of being himself.  All I think we can do is to build up our clusters of coping strategies to get by in the real world.  And when we have enough of them in place, then we get the opportunity to bring our strong points to bear in order to be successful.  I don’t even think we disagree on that.  It just seems like you’ve convinced yourself of the premise that we’re automatically in opposition or something.

Research… well, I just ordered some books by Temple Grandin based on discussions on this site.  That’s something, I guess.  I have certainly researched this stuff throughout my life, albeit haphazardly.  I don’t claim to be some kind of professional specialist.
“If [I] want to not be autistic….” Is not what any of this is about.  I have my opinions about what’s true and what isn’t.  I believe that I have Asperger’s and that that particular condition is not identical to Autism.  Of course the psychiatric community can “prove” me wrong tomorrow by eliminating the distinction altogether.  And then I guess I would be autistic by definition.

I guess I do disagree in some ways with some of the beliefs held by the majority of those who are active on this site.  I don’t intend anything hateful by that, nor is it intended as trolling.  Is this some kind of political party where if I join then I’m obliged to wholeheartedly endorse an entire package deal of concepts?  I’m only trying to have discussions and hopefully some of them will be helpful in some way.  If you’re confident in what you believe in, then I’m not sure how my existence and *slightly* differing beliefs should represent a threat.
I think that in the context of having normal conversations that I can present opinions that are sometimes in opposition to other people’s without becoming “the enemy.”  But I guess if I’m wrong then I’ll be banned.  I promise I’m not trying to hurt or offend anyone.

Okay, “evil” was a simplification and paraphrase of your value judgments directed toward me.  I suppose what you most literally implied is that I’m hateful and bigoted, neither of which I believe to be true.

If there are any particular threads you’ve participated in that you feel it would be beneficial for me to read, then please point me toward them and I’ll check them out.  Otherwise I guess I’ll continue my current haphazard approach to being involved in this forum.

As to the real point of this particular thread, I do get that many people, including some who have Asperger’s, think that the proposed DSM change is a good idea.  But so far there are only two practical reasons I can see being cited.  One is that they believe the classification is more factually accurate.  I don’t find that particular line of thought persuasive because I care most about the practical impact on people with Asperger’s living their lives on a daily basis.  The argument is kind of like pointing out that a tomato is a fruit – but it has no practical impact on how you make a salad.

The other seems to be a belief that this will result in the availability of services for people with Asperger’s that are apparently not available at present.  But I don’t see that at all.  What’s important is that people get the services they need.  And if you erase practical and useful distinctions between conditions, then of course this could result in a broader range of services – but services that are likely inappropriate or unneeded.

Anyway, these are just my opinions as one guy.  I hope that you can see that even though I could be completely wrong, my opinions are absolutely not intended to hurt anyone.

This post was last modified: 02-23-2010 10:53 PM by mysterywalker.

I believe even kids on the so-called higher end of the spectrum might not cope in a regular classroom without assistance. If that assistance is not going to be given, they might be better off in special education or being home schooled. Surely somebody could have explained to your son that the girl who came out of the toilets didn't understand her behaviour was inappropriate and didn't understand what was happening to her.

She might never be able to understand or it might just take longer than usual. It doesn't help her or anybody else to treat her as if she is some kind of monster and should be kept away so she doesn't "contaminate" others.

I wish I had never mentioned that particular girl, because it just makes me appear mean and doesn't even make the point I was trying to make.  Temple Grandin goes pretty in depth about her upbringing in the 50s and 60s in the book "Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships."  The gist of it is that she credits having been subjected to the same expectations as everyone else largely with who making her who she is today.  Anyway, I think she makes the point I was trying to make better than I could here.

Also in a way that was a hypothetical situation.  The thing with the girl was real, but happened while my wife was working in a special ed class.  My son wasn't in that classroom.  He's actually 16 now... almost 17... and most of the potential school system fights that I bring up here are just principles I believe in now, because the actual fights have mostly all happened.

I don't think there's anything monstrous or demeaning in trying to work at a particular individual's functional level.  I mean would you put a 3rd grader in a 6th grade classrom or vice versa? I'm sure that if he wasn't embarrassed, then the 6th grader would be delighted, because he could sit in the back and basically read, draw, or do whatever he felt like.  But it would be really hard and unfair for the 3rd grader... I imagine most of them would shut down and simply ignore the unrealistic expectations of their environment... especially if they were autistic.

But honestly at this point I don't know why I bother to have an opinion.  We're all simply "Autistic" now... or will be in 2013. It's not like my opinion is going to be considered by any decision maker.

emphasis mine.

-----begin sarcasm-----
Oh! Poor us! Not so special anymore are we?
-----end sarcasm-------

Still, 1 out of 150 isn't so bad is it?

The source of my disappointment... in the sentence you emphasize... is that in the entire process the desires of the individuals the diagnoses apply to aren't being considered.  Maybe the majority of us would support the change, but except for isolated rants we'll never know.

If the goal is to eliminate any opinion that could be interpreted as elitist, perhaps the DSM 6 should be written to reflect the single diagnosis of "Unspecified Atypical Disorder" for not just all of us, but anyone with any diagnosable condition.

What I've genuinely come to conclude in my adult life is that the sad truth is nobody's special... which is a logical end result of all that "everyone's special in their own special way" drivel that's come to permeate all society... not just us, not just "NTs," but everyone.

I'm sorry so many people feel that my opinion is hateful.  I'm certainly capable of being hateful, but it really frustrates me when people read hate into opinions I hold that just feel like they're logical.  I might have a warped sense of logic, especially from your point of view, but I'd feel a lot better if you took it at that instead of deciding you know what motivates me.

What I think is virtually everyone on this board should be described as having "Asperger's."  I doubt there are many "classic autists" engaging in these conversations.  HFA is, ijust n my personal opinion, without question the same thing as Asperger's.  The language delay criteria is mostly irrelevant and largely ignored at random as a factor in diagnosis, anyway.  I think that there's a distinct enough difference between the needs of someone with "Classic Autism" or "Low Functioning Autism" that it would be beneficial to consider that a completely different diagnosis from HFA or Asperger's.  This is my considered opinion.  It could be flat out ignorant and incorrect, but I don't hold to this opinion because I wish anything bad for anyone.  Nor is it that as an autistic person I automatically resist change, as the psychiatrists have been suggesting.

The problem -- in my singular and possibly foolish opinion -- with viewing things from a spectrum or continuum perspective is that every human being on Earth could logically be placed on any spectrum or continuum that could be conceived.

I guess free thinking is a fine thing, as long as we can all agree on exactly the right free thoughts to have.

This post was last modified: 03-02-2010 12:12 AM by mysterywalker.

You're a flat-earther, aren't you?