Hello everyone.

I am new here. I am Capricorn, an NT female in a friendship/support role for an AS male.

I have a problem that I'd like to ask advice about, especially from the AS members, as I can't understand what might be happening in this situation from my NT perspective.

I have been close to my AS friend for 2 years now and in that time we have never had an argument. Three weeks ago we had our first big disagreement and since then my friend has refused to contact me at all.

What happened was I sent him an inbox on a particular topic. It is very private to him, so I feel uncomfortable talking about it here, but basically he did something which I thought was a really bad idea, because from my perspective it seemed like something that could cause him a lot of future problems. I sent  him a very clear and direct mail, explaining that I was worried and upset and explaining exactly why. I have always tried to communicate exactly what I want to say, because it was my understanding that this was the best way to communicate with someone who has AS. Because of this I am always very honest. Up until now this has worked very well, because he said speaking to him honestly and directly was easy for him to understand, unlike most people who alluded to things or spoke in idioms. However, this time my honesty really REALLY upset him. He didn't answer my first mail, so I sent him another. I got a furious response, which shocked me, because until then he had never ever shown anger to me. He said that what I had said to him had made him depressed and furious and he was upset and that it didn't matter what further inboxes or emails or phone calls I sent him, he would not answer me until he was ready

He has kept to his word. I immediately sent him a couple of text messages apologising for upsetting him. I said that the last thing I wanted was to upset him, but I was telling him what I thought about the situation because I was genuinely worried about him. There was no reply. I tried to phone him, no reply. Since this argument, he has noticably been absent online as if he is either hiding from me or avoiding me.

I am very upset and confused about what to do. To an NT this kind of behaviour (exploding in anger and then refusing to talk to someone afterward for weeks or more) is generally seen as a way of trying to emotionally control another person, to manipulate them or even mentally abuse them by punishing them. However, after reading about anger in those with AS it seems like it could be a totally different situation - he is in some kind of shock or is unable to cope with confrontation or is perhaps upset that he got angry with me. Or he may well be really angry with me and refusing to talk to me because he is still angry.

I really don't know what to think or how to handle the situation. Any insight or advice would be really welcome. My friends (none of whom know anything about AS) all urge me to ditch him, because they say that by refusing to talk to me until he is ready he is trying to control the relationship and conduct it on his terms without letting me have any say. I am very frustrated because the longer the silence continues the less likely it seems that the problem will be resolved.

Thanks.

Capricorn

"they say that by refusing to talk to me until he is ready he is trying to control the relationship and conduct it on his terms without letting me have any say"

I say that expecting to have it your way is no more commendable.  I'm guessing your NT friends are women, and that they would view your controlling the relationship somewhat differently.  Just guessing, mind.

Some time ago I drew a line under contact with a female NT friend.  A line was crossed, and so another was drawn.  I read one email in which she suggested she was 'owed' an explanation.  I told her a line was crossed and so another was drawn. I didn't read any more emails.  Then a few weeks ago I bumped into her somewhere where I was dependent on someone present giving me a ride home - she offered, I accepted..there's no malice or grudge held on my part, and she appears to believe we were 'on a break' and told me I could phone her.  How that interpretation is bearing up now that I haven't phoned her, I don't know.

Your man at least says he'll talk to you when he's ready - do you really have a problem with that?  I would have thought that the longer the silence continues, the greater the chance of the resolution being one that you want and one that lasts, rather than you forcing him into a confrontational exchange for which he is not prepared, which will likely lead to lines being crossed and lines being drawn in short order.  Are you in a hurry to have it ended, or prepared to wait for it to work?

Hi jiggeryqua.

Thanks for the reply.

First, most of the people who gave me their opinion are male. Only one is female.

"Your man at least says he'll talk to you when he's ready - do you really have a problem with that? "

Yes, I do. This is because by allowing that to happen I am giving him the green light to control the relationship. He already does this with his girlfriend and it has reached the point where he rages at her and refuses to contact her any time she upsets him. I am keen to avoid getting into the same rut. His parents also let his rages control the household - his mum tiptoes around him trying not to make him angry.

I do think he does this deliberately I think it is a coping mechanism for him in difficult situations. Perhaps his girlfriend and mother want to avoid confrontation. All I know is that I look at the relationship he has with his girlfriend and how miserable she is and I don't want our friendship to end up that way and so it seems to me I have to avoid letting him treat me the same way he treats her. I see this episode as a possible start for that downward slide.

"I would have thought that the longer the silence continues, the greater the chance of the resolution being one that you want and one that lasts, rather than you forcing him into a confrontational exchange for which he is not prepared, which will likely lead to lines being crossed and lines being drawn in short order.  Are you in a hurry to have it ended, or prepared to wait for it to work?"

This is good advice and it makes sense to me. Thanks for that. I am prepared to wait for it to work.

Capricorn

I don't know the issue at stake, but here's what I suspect.  I suspect he's grappling with someting that he'd like to change that neither he or you could change.  He was probably in a "wishful thinking" state-of-mind until you "hit the nail on the head" by saying what you said.  Sometimes the truth hurts even if it is the truth.  As a guy who has been seemingly cursed with love-life problems, it sure as hell hurt when the man who made me aware of my Asperger Syndrome told me that no matter what; when I like a woman, I come across as a creep and I would probably never find a true love (if I had let my then current relationship that was plagued with preexisting incidental problems end rather than accept and deal with her legal/immigration problem).

I think the guy is coping with an issue that he can't change.  He's probably not really mad at you.  More likely he's alternating between shock (the actual revelation) and denial.

Suppose you were seeing a doctor about a certain pain that was intermittently and repeatedly bothering you.  Perhaps you'd were seeing more than one doctor just to get an alternative opinion and/or treatment for the same issue.  Finally one of the doctors diagnoses the ailment.  Then he tells you that you are terminally ill.

Think about how you'd feel.  You'd probably feel very depressed.  You'd feel very angry.  You'd have mood swings; but overall grappling with this hypothetical reality, you'd be miserable.  You probably wouldn't speak to your husband/parents/brother/sister/kid/friends for periods of time because you'd be too depressed and bewildered.  Other times you might lash out at them in anger even though you're angry about your situation; not about them personally.

Well, I think this guy needs to cool off and gradually cope with whatever the issue is.  Meanwhile you may want to educate your friends that is unfair for them to cast aspersions and make judgements about him.  They say Aspies can't feel empathy.  Ironically I think this is a situation that these NT folks can't feel empathy towards the Aspie.  (Life's experiences typical for NTs are very different for life experiences of Aspies).  Bottom line is his true character in his mind and in his heart is probably very different from what they might be gossiping about.

Hi Kevin. Thank you for the reply.

"I don't know the issue at stake, but here's what I suspect.  I suspect he's grappling with someting that he'd like to change that neither he or you could change.  He was probably in a "wishful thinking" state-of-mind until you "hit the nail on the head" by saying what you said.  Sometimes the truth hurts even if it is the truth."

This makes perfect sense and was along the lines of what I was thinking. In fact, in the past he has gone very silent in face-to-face conversation and said "you hit the nail on the head", so obviously when someone does that, it upsets him.

In a nutshell, my friend got involved in a very negative lifestyle a while back with his girlfriend which he managed to get himself out of. He made sensible choices, which included leaving her, and turned his life around for the better.

Three weeks ago I discovered he had got himself back into the same lifestyle and had (apparently) been hiding it from me. He had got back into it through the same girl, who he was not only dating again, but now engaged to. I asked him why he had hidden it from me this time around (the first time around I was the person he confided in about it) and asked him if the reason he had not told me was because he was embarrassed to tell me. On top of this I outlined clearly why the lifestyle had been bad for him the first time around and why I was worried about him going back to that way. The reasons he gave me in the angry email, were not only illogical, they actually contradicted themselves. It was like he couldn't find a convincing reason and so resorted to anger. In addition he said that all the bad things he had previously said about his girlfriend were wrong and actually she was great and why did I believe the bad things he had told me about her? (That was the illogical part - he was angry with me for believing the bad things HE had said about her)

"I think the guy is coping with an issue that he can't change.  He's probably not really mad at you.  More likely he's alternating between shock (the actual revelation) and denial."

So, I am thinking he is in just such a wishful-thinking state of denial as you have suggested. I think you are very perceptive, Kevin.

"Well, I think this guy needs to cool off and gradually cope with whatever the issue is."

Yes, you are right. I am guessing that after a few weeks with the girlfriend he will start to rethink his situation.

"Meanwhile you may want to educate your friends that is unfair for them to cast aspersions and make judgements about him.  They say Aspies can't feel empathy.  Ironically I think this is a situation that these NT folks can't feel empathy towards the Aspie.  (Life's experiences typical for NTs are very different for life experiences of Aspies).  Bottom line is his true character in his mind and in his heart is probably very different from what they might be gossiping about."

Oh, they are clueless and I know from experience that trying to educate my friends about AS is a waste of time. Most people can't understand even the most basic issues I am trying to deal with, or even if they do they look at me like I am some kind of idiot and ask me why I bother with him and "put up with all that BS". This from people who I would otherwise consider to be kind and understanding.

Ah, I used a gender word and not a sex word.  After thirty plus years of aggressive feminism, most males probably do also think that a man controlling a relationship is bad and a woman controlling it is good - or at least better.  Personally, I don't believe anyone should be 'controlling' a relationship or the other person or persons in it.  But the fact that I go into relationships not aiming for control may well be a contributing factor to the levels of control I've experienced from females in relationships.  The fact that they're female, and thirty plus years of aggressive feminism may also be contributing factors...

I have to ask why you want to remain friends with someone who treats his girlfriend and parents so badly, though you do acknowledge that they enable his behaviour.

What happens if you 'ditch' him before he's ready to communicate, and then he tries to communicate anyway?  Do you refuse to communicate?  Is your control now more commendable than his?  To my mind, the only person you have a hope of controlling is you - either accept this man as he is, or not.

"I have to ask why you want to remain friends with someone who treats his girlfriend and parents so badly, though you do acknowledge that they enable his behaviour."

Because I suspect he has never been aware of the fact that there is an alternative to this kind of behaviour. I think that when he was a child, he discovered that when he had a meltdown his mum quickly gave in to his demands and gave him what he wanted to keep him quiet. Any child, with AS or not, would then think that rage was the way to get what they wanted. His girlfriend does this too. I think that he rages because he doesn't know any other way of dealing with a stressful situation. He is nice enough when he isn't in a rage, so  am hoping that he will be responsive to anger management techniques.

"What happens if you 'ditch' him before he's ready to communicate, and then he tries to communicate anyway?  Do you refuse to communicate?  Is your control now more commendable than his?  To my mind, the only person you have a hope of controlling is you - either accept this man as he is, or not.
"

There does not have to be one person in control. You seem to see it as a battle. I am hoping that we will be able to reach a 50/50 management of our friendship. What I wanted to know was what might be motivating his withdrawal - was it anger, shock, brain freeze, what? In addition I wanted to know if it seemed likely that he would get back in touch with me or if he wouldn't. Knowing that I could then try to deal with the situation.

My advice--take him at his word.
I'm sorry.
He's making choices, he's a grownup, you can be concerned on his behalf but you can't live his life.

Advice is sometimes an unsolicited gift that is given that the recipient does not want to receive.

I don't know if this will help or not but I withdraw if somebody "confronts" me about an issue I am uncomfortable with (except on the odd occasion when I am ready to admit there is a problem). Somebody here confronted me about an issue I brought up. They were mostly right but because they said I was stupid, I wanted to prove to myself that they were mistaken and the online friends I had weren't ratbags.

Well one of them isn't speaking to me now and I don't know what I am supposed to have done and I am very upset about it but the best thing I think I can do now is ignore them if they are going to ignore me.

I always hated it when any health professionals or counsellors confronted me because I felt they misunderstood where I was coming from and were only pretending to be nice to me just so they could get my confidence and then sock it to me. I am told it is a technique some counsellors use and maybe it works with various NT's but it certainly doesn't work with me and I suspect wouldn't work with other NT's or aspies.

It's really difficult when a good friend is going to make what is likely to be a big mistake. You can express your concerns but be prepared for them not to like it and even to not want to speak to you (especially if it involves an unsuitable romantic attachment). I think it can be best to let them make their own mistake if they don't want to listen to you, hard as it is to stand by and let them get into trouble.

I'd be wary of a person using tantrums to get their own way; not that all emotional displays by aspies are an attempt to control a relationship. I was accused of being manipulative but if I blew up it was generally because the weather was hot and muggy, I had PMS, and I just didn't want to be pestered any more. In other words, I had reached the end of being able to endure a particular situation. But not all aspies are saints (I'm not but don't intentionally manipulate people) and it is certainly possible for some to be very difficult to live with.

Capricorn, I think there's not much point trying to reach out to your friend now. The ball is firmly in his court and it's up to him to make contact. You meant well and I'm sure that deep down he realises it, even if he doesn't want to admit to himself that he might not be making a sensible decision.

Hi Energeia.

Thanks for that.

Regarding advice, last year he asked me for advice all the time on this girl; it wasn't unsolicited, it was most certainly solicited. Every time I met him he would start off with a complaint session about her and ask me what I thought, so as far as I was concerned, our relationship was so close that we were open with each other fully about both of our partners - this is the way it has always been. For him to keep his romance secret this time was a strange change of our relationship and one which bothered me. He probably could not see that to an NT this was a hurtful thing. It is like saying to a friend that you no longer trust them or you are no longer close to them.

Well, about your friend with Asperger's Syndrome; I think he's in a dire situation that can only get worse.  First of all, Aspies are particularly vulnerable to be manipulated.  As far as the manipulating party is concerned; an Aspie is expendable.  It has happened to me a few times in my life; the grandest incident being how and why I married my second ex-wife.  I know of a situation where my grandfather was set up before just so the perpetrators wouldn't get caught in the activity they were going to profit from; the blame would be pinned on him instead.  As far as I understant, he was totally unaware he was being used at the time.  I can think of at least one member on this board who was screwed big time by somebody taking advantage of his "Aspiness".

If this fellow feels impassioned by this girl, he's extremely vulnerable.  And she knows it.  He's looking through rose-colored glasses.  The good moments he "shares" with her are what he idealizes as the "real she".  But her true colors are probably much different.  She is probably messing with his head; making him feel guilty about doubting her sincerity (possibly even trying to convince him you're a jerk); making him doubt himself; and making him feel like if he breaks with her (as hard as it may be if he feels passion towards her), he'll gravely regret it in years to come.  Remember, if he feels passion towards her, she's got him wrapped around her finger and knows all too well the stuff she's tring to do to him in order to personally profit, taking for granted she will get away with her unscrupulousness.

Is this guy young?  I assume he's never been married before.  My gut feeling tells me he should not marry this woman.  If he does, he may end up as a "whipped puppy".  He will most likely end up being villified in a divorce court.  (I'm assuming this woman is NT and devious).  I'm sure she has friends who would support her devious kinds of deeds and back her up all the while knowing how vulnerable he is because he has relatively few social contacts.

Does this guy have a good job?  His own home?  Maybe still in school studying hard to procure a better future for himself (and a potential partner)?  Whatever nice things he has in his life, he's probably worked very hard to acheive on his own merit.  All that can be flushed down the toilet if he gets involved with the wrong woman.  These are things he should seriously think about before he marries her.  He'll have to be strong, and he'll need folks like you to help make him stronger with practical moral support; especially if this girl is messing with his psyche.  If their relattionship has a crack in it now, it will only exacerbate far worse if they get married.

Hi Pakrat.

I am sorry to hear that your friend is ignoring you, especially if they haven't said why. That isn't fair, because how are you supposed to be able to resolve a situation if someone doesn't tell you what they are upset about? I hope that gets sorted out.

At least my friend did tell me, but initially he wasn't going to; it was only my second mail that prompted the angry reply. I guess if I hadn't sent that second mail he might not have replied at all, or might just have waited till his anger disappeared before he contacted me, so I would never have known he was angry. Wow, actually, in that case, on the occasions where he has been very  slow to respond to my mails it may have been because  he was angered by something I said, but didn't tell me, so maybe him telling me this time was actually a breakthrough in communication. I never considered that.

Confrontation - I hate it too, and usually avoid it. My friend has always asked me to be totally honest with him, so I also feel that it was unfair of him to ignore me in this case. Getting angry is fair enough, but refusing to speak to me because of what I said after asking me to be honest just doesn't seem fair. Especially as he has a very strong hatred of injustice - I pointed that break in logic out to him in my reply to his mail. I am actually a lot more logical in my thinking than he is and I think that in itself annoys him. I am like a Vulcan always telling him "That's illogical".

As for his tantrums, the more I think about them, the more convinced I am that they are the only method he knows of dealing with stress and frustration. I have heard that those with AS only meltdown with people they trust, so perhaps him showing his rage to me shows that he feels comfortable and safe to do so, which would be positive in his view of me as someone he can trust, but negative in its effect on our relationship.

"Capricorn, I think there's not much point trying to reach out to your friend now. The ball is firmly in his court and it's up to him to make contact. You meant well and I'm sure that deep down he realises it, even if he doesn't want to admit to himself that he might not be making a sensible decision."

He did say to me that he knew I cared about him and could feel the sincerity in my words. I think what upset him most was the fact that he thought I no longer trusted him because he had kept her secret. Also, I suspect his pride was wounded by the suggestion that a woman was having a negative effect on his life, because he seemed to have interpreted that as me thinking she was controlling him. It seems like everyone has control issues.

Thanks again

Capricorn

Oh heavens, Kevin, you have hit the nail on the head. This girl and her manipulation - here's an example. One day, the first week he dated her, he asked me to go for a coffee with him and he said, "Can you explain to me what it means when a girl puts his arms round a man?" I was like "You mean a hug, like this" and hugged him. "Yes!" he said. "She told me that when someone does that, it mean they want to have sex with you, so I mustn't ever touch another girl and they mustn't touch me."

That is a classic example of the kind of manipulation he was subjected to. After a while he stopped telling me about it because he was embarrassed I think.

"If this fellow feels impassioned by this girl, he's extremely vulnerable.  And she knows it.  He's looking through rose-colored glasses.  The good moments he "shares" with her are what he idealizes as the "real she".  But her true colors are probably much different.  She is probably messing with his head; making him feel guilty about doubting her sincerity (possibly even trying to convince him you're a jerk); making him doubt himself; and making him feel like if he breaks with her (as hard as it may be if he feels passion towards her), he'll gravely regret it in years to come.  Remember, if he feels passion towards her, she's got him wrapped around her finger and knows all too well the stuff she's tring to do to him in order to personally profit, taking for granted she will get away with her unscrupulousness."

The first time he dated her she dressed like a quirky teenager in badly fitting sweaters and crazy hairstyles. Since then she has undergone an image change, wears lots of make-up and tiny revealing dresses and miniskirts. This coupled with him telling me before that all they really had in the relationship was sex doesn't take a genius to work out why he has gone back to her. What you said about messing with his head is EXACTLY right - he told me that he had got back together with her after long talks in which she had made him realise that what he had thought about her before was wrong and that he was dating her now to "do the right thing" and "make up for having treated her badly before". She has done exactly what you said, pulled a huge guilt trip on him and that, coupled with her being at college with him every day dressed up so sexily, has had the double effect of making him want her and feel like he is obliged to go back to her. This is what I strongly feel anyway (but I didn't say that to him).

He is young, a college student from a very rich family.

I just had a confrontation with my mother about my not contacting her often enough. Apparently she is very hurt that I blocked her e-mails. She only ever sends me e-mail forwards and articles that she didn't write herself. I wanted to hear from her and not from all the people who wrote those things, most of which I have absolutely no interest in; and I told her a lot of times that I didn't like it; she kept sending them anyway, so I blocked her. Apparently this is a horrible thing for me to do, especially since I forget to call or write to her, and she has to do all the initiating. She may not realize that I do not initiate contact with anyone, not even my closest friends; and she doesn't understand when I say that at the moment I am spending most of my energy on staying alive, healthy, and somewhat organized. Apparently a lot of people with AS have problems with social relationships. Recently I have begun to understand that the reason I don't have any problems is that I don't have any relationships. Apparently I don't know how to keep up a relationship, and the relationship just drops away when the other person doesn't keep constantly contacting me.

I don't know if your friend is like this. I do know it is as common as being too insistent in contacting your friends and making a nuisance of yourself. Often times a lack of contact can just mean that I've forgotten to do it.