Hello.  Thank you for clicking on this thread.  I have not been a frequent visitor here.  My father told me long ago, "Son, you want to keep your mouth shut and let them think you are a fool instead of opening your mouth and letting them know it."  This was sage advice from his father, and from his father before him. I try to follow it more these days than I used to.

However, I occasionally break silence.  I would like to begin a thread on changing the perceptions that most NT's hold when a person cannot hold on to a job. Most of them assume that one is a loser, immoral, or else incompetent.  Often they assume that one is not trying.  Now, I assume that most of you hold to a different viewpoint.  How do we change the common perception to one that is more amenable to our own advancement in society?

That is the question that I pose to you.  How do we re-arrange perceptions? If a perfectly well educated and intelligent person cannot get past "Human Resources," then such a person cannot prove his or her worth.  By the way, Human Resources is a term that I find offenslve.  Human beings are created in the Divine Image.  We are not "resources."  However, at the same time, I acknowledge that HR wields power, whether deserved or not.  Therefore, their perceptions are vital to whether we advance or retreat in society.  

How do we change the dominant image of a (pardon the term) "loser?" I am sorry if "loser" offends you, but your being offended will change nothing.  It will have no impact.  The question is; what will have an impact?  What will change perceptions in society?  If there is to be a serious change, then it must begin with forums like this. And, the discussion must be about political power and how to wield it, not a 1990's style conversation about terms and how offensive they are.  I believe that a real political movement should form from conversations like these.  I am willing to consider an Autistic Political Party as one venue.

I will post a poll that you are free to participate in.  You may vote more than once.  Please feel free to comment.  I will probably turn it over to you good folks and not comment, or I might comment if there is a chance to make an intelligent contribution.  Otherwise, I will follow my father's sage advice.

This is a very valid discussion.

"I would like to begin a thread on changing the perceptions that most NT's hold when a person cannot hold on to a job. Most of them assume that one is a loser, immoral, or else incompetent.  Often they assume that one is not trying.  Now, I assume that most of you hold to a different viewpoint.  How do we change the common perception to one that is more amenable to our own advancement in society?"

There are different trends in HR and hiring practices.  During the past there were schemes to select different personalities to fill "team" profiles.  Aspies often lost out because we are not deemed as "team players".  I find that a current trend (while I attended a seminar for disabled people seeking employment that totally ignored people with autism) is to judge people on their past behaviour as a predictor of future behaviours.  

Past behaviour as a predictor of future behaviours is unforgiving.  This scheme requires a full employment history with all gaps accounted for ( being unemployed would be viewed about the same as being incarcerated by law enforcement, guilty or not).  This is why some employers are asking for police record checks and credit histories.  I don't believe that some traffic violation twenty years ago should bar someone from volunteering with children -- but it does have that effect.  

It is very difficult to have a chance to prove that you have "changed" your behaviour due to the consequences of past behaviour pitfalls.  In an aspie's case, it should be sometimes others that need to change and be more accommodating than us.  Often we can not change.  

"How do we re-arrange perceptions? If a perfectly well educated and intelligent person cannot get past "Human Resources," then such a person cannot prove his or her worth."  If somehow you are in an industry where you can network, have your work known to people who actually does it -- you will get a job through them and not through human resources.  If a manager wants to hire you -- he/she will put your application through human resources just as a formality.   Some employers will hire on ability and skills rather than personality fluff that some HR people seem to love.  

Another method to getting to who makes the hiring decision is to fool the application screener.   Write your cover letter to point out exactly how you are qualified for the position advertised.  Adjust your cv/resume to support that.   If you are "too old" just include relevant experience in your cv/resume to the job you are applying.  Do not include filler jobs or maybe jobs you did ten or twenty years ago.  Do not put the year of graduation on your degrees.  Hopefully the person interviewing will be technical and have a chance to overlook your application before the interview.  They will know by talking to you what you can do.  

I would not put that you have a disability on your application or specifically list it.  I do sometimes check off disability in an application to a government agency or large corporation that claims to be participating in employment equity.  Often they will select people with disabilities/race just for interviews but you might often be the only person with experience and qualifications in that group.  

I have found that some HR people have interviewed me just for entertainment.  They had no positions available and just wanted to feel some power.  If you feel that you have been badly treated in an interview by an HR person -- write or call that company's CEO or public relations department and complain.  More than often you are a customer or potential future client.  Remind them of that.  They have to know that that they could be refused  a very important contract because they were "rude" to someone during a job interview or when someone inquired about a job.  

I didn't answer your survey because I didn't find a suitable choice.  We stop job discrimination against people with autism that same way we stop discrimination against any specific group.

Not long ago I was filling out an online application form with the Urban Institute in Washington D.C.  I refused to specify employment history beyond the items listed in my resume.

When asked for any terminations I sarcastically included an incident in a dishwashing job from 20 years ago and left the following explanation re: the employment history, in so many words.... actually this is the way I wish I had phrased it
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I feel insulted that I would be asked to provide a history of more than ten years of any and every position now that I have approximately ten years' experience with the same employer.  The Federal government on its long form SF-171 does not ask for more than this. I have Asperger syndrome and a considerable period of years of finding where you fit with a particular career and employer is normal under the circumstances. I am very happy to have nearly ten years with my employer today.
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I still have my old job search records 1996-1998. I think I will neatly write them up as a class A (interviewers who rejected me) and class B (others who rejected me) corporate avoid lists. Not very Christian, eh?

A partial list of the class A list is as follows (the total list is about 36):

* Westat, Rockville Maryland (I also did not like the attitude of my interviewer)
* National Restaurant Association, Washington DC
* ROW Sciences, Rockville Maryland
* Maryland Ribbon Company, Hagerstown Maryland



M, however, I don't think the odds of rejecting a contract are very likely, in this economy, though. But if they ever were mistreated, I'd say they deserved it.

Oh yeah. I do recall phrasing the question, is this a legitimate question or are you digging for dirt?

I was a mean S.O.B. when I was doing the hiring. Deliberately phrase the interview to see if the person would break down or inadvertently say something. Of course they dig for dirt. Trick is to be ready.

Problem for those I interviewed was my encyclopaedic knowledge of most subjects and work.

Heres a few catch outs. Guy applied for a position as a stereo installer. So I make up a hypothetical situation. Customer complains that his system doesn't work properly, what are you going to do? (I don't know, bye bye).

I want to be a spare parts guy. Well go find me a lower ball joint for a 1972 Falcon, you have 5 minutes. (I don't know where to start, bye bye)

Gee, you know what, my memory only goes back ten years.

I'm not going to tell that j@ck______ that I keep detailed records.

I do agency work - people make allowances for me..... being just relief staff. Avoid unhealthy work environments that reek of dog eat dog.

I put "try and fit in and stay silent".

One are of focus might be to fight for the right to privacy, which runs counter to ideological trends across the political spectrum against a right to privacy.  In other words, barring incarceration, one should be allowed to keep areas of your life private.  The increasing use of past experiences as an indicator of future behavior is one sign of an ominous trend toward the Panopticon, a society of total surveillance.  

Such a society is harsh and unforgiving.  It will coursen the public, and make people less willing to make genuine contacts. And yes, it will be detrimental to our cause.  Politicians encourage all of these things because it makes us easier to control.  Bosses encourage this movement because it makes employees easier to control.  Finally, intellectuals seem to be on board because a great many political philosophers of the twentieth century have been averse to individual thought and in favor of mass conformity.  Organized religion and organized secularism have both encouraged mass conformity in the name of "getting along."

In addition to a new political party, I am open to something that I have never advocated before, an organized and vocal boycott of voting itself.  I am reluctant to take that step, since I consider voting a civic duty, but I am beginning to think that a strategic boycott of the voting booth might deny legitimacy to the System itself.  If the reasons are stated outrightly, that the people involved are not apathetic, but that they have a specific reason for abstention, then it might be extraordinarily effective.  Once certain demands are met, voting would resume.

Yet, for those unwilling to take such radical steps, protests in favor of increased employee privacy might be a good step.  Actual protests in front of businesses or other concerns might be effective.  My one concern would be the criminal element, those who really do have reasons why they are covering up,joining such a movment.  Therefore, I *AM* in favor of criminal background checks.  I am not in favor of having to account for every action I have made in twenty years, as this is none of anyone's business.  

ATM

My favorite Dilbert character is Catbert - the evil director of human resources....

I, too, did not vote in the above poll because I didn't see any options that seemed suitable to me. I have never been fired from a job for being Aspie, but I have quit several because the situation seemed untenable. I don't seem to be good at handling "Catch 22" situations where there is no right answer. I also seem to place much more importance on the perception that my contribution is valued than others do. If I don't feel that my work is valued, I have a hard time seeing any reason to stay in a job.

As far as whether I am viewed as a "loser" or not... I am resistant to keeping score the same way as the rest of the world. We have several acquaintances who seem to have trouble figuring out where to put us on their socio-economic score card. Our home and vehicles don't fit easily into anyone else's rating system, but I know a lot of people are jealous of our contentment level. The important thing is to have a life you enjoy - who cares what other people think.

Its not easy owning the company. One swaps one boss for a much harder task master, the bank. I am amazed I did all that myself to this day. Well, I had a dream.

ATM, again it seems you and I have more in common.  (How are you?, Wwll, I hope.)

There is a very disturbing trend of companies (in the US) doing background check , even for menial jobs, or for small companies.  (All in the interest of "safety".  They do financial background checks as well.

People are being basically being treated like criminals if they have less than stallar "credit scores".  

If a person lost a job (many do after all) and they miss a couple of payments - they are then for all intents and purposes, now unemployable .  A vicious cycle.

How about health issues- one visit to a hospital for a week or for surgery (G*d forbid) and you can end up owing 100,000 dollars... who can withstand both the bill and the loss of work and still keep up stellar credit scores.....

People are being treated like numbers, not like human beings.  Regular life issues, many completely out of a person's control - like bad luck - are making people into unhirables - similar to someone who has a criminal record - a felony.

Evenn misdemeanors show up on these reports....

(Also to get a government job, you need finger printing etc.,)

What is next a blood test... already happens..


ATM PANOPTICON is here.  What can we do about it?

I had cancer once without health insurance- Feb. 1997. 99% cure rate. Bills were extinguished in 2.5 years.

Fortunately today I have FICO near 800, clean criminal record, not even a traffic accident in 4.75 years.
I was recently cleared for an interim Secret Government clearance.

My husband does some work at power plants, refineries etc., so the new standard is a TWIC card.  Finger printing etc., He went through with it, but it is strange....

the new generation coming up wil lhave a harder time with these kinds of requirements, because the people factor is being taken out, and the computer is being used to gather, filter and sort information... also many more things are criminalized and kept track of.  

What is next RFID cards with all our health info etc.,  I disagree that any of this is helpful - they will call it "helping streamline/saving costs" so that company that wnats to hire can ne more "efficient" and save money on insurance"

Coming soon/ already here: No such thing as privacy in medical records - every one saw all the ads and commercials on tv, 1 in 4 are on some sort of mental health/depression drug.  Will that be held against people? Is that even a question.

Maybe it is our society that causes depression and mental health problems

A Marxist would say, "People are on drugs to escape your capitalist reality, people sell drugs and have prostitution because it is the capitalist thing to do"

We can guess that our economic system marginalizes some of our pre-existing population and would rather have an immigrant or a high tech visa

Our social system has broken down to the point where you need E-Harmony to find a lifemate, or need an organization simply to find friends.  I am intermediate, although I did not find a spouse in college, I found many friends I still have 20 years later. I attract many women as friends, but you often find a woman's communication of interest is very vague. It could mean "I really appreciate this friendship" to "why aren't you pursuing me for a life mate?"

I would err more on the side on romance if it weren't so emotionally costly.  I feel a little bit like the Soviet pilot who fired on Korean Air Lines 007.

"Zabuska", "missiles away", picked up by a CIA listening post (Doomsday: On The Brink, The Learning Channel, in the context of KAL 007 and Reagan response ratcheting up the Soviet paranoia and danger of WW3.  See also training exercise Able Archer.)