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Schizoid traits and AS
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Batman55



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Schizoid traits and AS

If an Aspie has Schizoid traits, is it more accurate to say these traits developed on their own over the years, or that the Schizoid qualities are in fact a "separate entity"?

Some Schizoid qualities--check out the higher value placed on the internal/fantasy life--could arise from a bunch of factors related to ASD:

-difficulty comprehending social situations
-trouble learning the NT value system (for instance, the "why" of things such as gaining a support network, the "why" of pretending to show confidence in one's personality, etc etc)
-generalized anxiety about everything, over the years, which results in avoidance, and then the avoidance results in a more introspective/self-interested person doing things their own way, with a lot of inflexible routines/rituals that one derives enjoyment from.

As they say in the description for Schizoid PD, when the external world becomes too much of a threat, the internal world takes on a greater importance for the person and thus this is how the person can cope with the threat, and feel like they can control something.  The fantasy life may even be a way to maintain some level of happiness, in absence of anything more practical going on.

But here's the kicker...  there's a lot of similarities between the two.  Some Aspies may have predictable, inflexible routines that they derive enjoyment from.  Some Aspies may be "in their own world" a lot and require a lot of personal space--and, logically, the internal Aspergian life is usually based around specific interests.  Many Aspies lack interest in having a relationship or a successful social life and prefer to be solitary or the "lone wolf" per se.  Judging from AFF, the asexual/aromantic thing is common with Aspies, although I don't have this quality myself (I'm interested in such things, but am too fearful of rejection and just how I would incorporate the new demands of a relationship what with abysmal executive functioning, etc.)

For those of us who know something about this subject, do you agree that Schizoid traits with AS need a different set of accomodations?  As said, I don't think an Asperger patient with Schizoid traits is a typical AS patient.

And--as I've asked in the first paragraph--are Schizoid qualities in the AS person just a "greater caliber" of specific AS traits, or an actual separate disorder with its own mechanisms?

05-27-2008 09:48 AM
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energeia



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS
05-27-2008 04:51 PM
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Batman55



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

I've already read the wikipedia entry.  I've brought the topic into the open to see if anyone else knows anything about it.

Anyone?

05-28-2008 06:46 AM
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alectrum
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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

The clinical diagnostic criteria of these conditions have no basis in the etiology of them.  If the etiology in reality has thousands of different components that make up AS or SZ then it's logical to infer that some people are going to get a mixed bag from the genetic sweetie jar.

05-28-2008 10:32 AM
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Batman55



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

alectrum Wrote:
The clinical diagnostic criteria of these conditions have no basis in the etiology of them.  If the etiology in reality has thousands of different components that make up AS or SZ then it's logical to infer that some people are going to get a mixed bag from the genetic sweetie jar.


Can you put that in simpler terms??

Which point/question that I was asking in the OP were you addressing, for starters...?

05-29-2008 07:14 AM
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Saint



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

I think that the problem with that diagnosis, Batman, is that it is often used in lay- terminology to mean, "nuts". After all, people might get the wrong idea.


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07-10-2008 03:34 AM
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outsideL00kinN



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

What you describe sounds more like Schizotypal PD than Schizoid PD.

Wikipedia Wrote:
The schizotypal individual develops a fear of, strong objection to, or incapacity for social interaction, due to the sum of their past social experiences being negative in nature. As infants they do not learn how to interact with others, and as children and adults this inability quickly makes them a target for other people. Eventually, the individual learns (most often unconsciously) to see people as harmful and a source of negativity, suffering and ostracization. This leads to the development of "ideas of reference," in which the schizotypal individual believes that events are of special relevance to them or that benign events are somehow related to them (e.g., sees two people laughing and believes that the people are laughing at them). The individual may realize that their ideas of reference are irrational, but maintains them nonetheless. This exacerbates the individual's social anxiety, causing them to skew away from society and withdraw into their own world.

There are many similarities between the Schizotypal and Schizoid personalities. Most notable of the similarities is the inability to initiate or maintain relationships (both friendly and romantic) The difference between the two seems to be that those labeled as Schizotypal avoid social interaction because of a deep-seated fear of people. The Schizoid individual simply feels no desire to form relationships, because they quite literally see no point in sharing their time with others.

Schizotypal PD fits better with your description of desiring relationships but being fearful of rejection.


Batman55 Wrote:
are Schizoid qualities in the AS person just a "greater caliber" of specific AS traits, or an actual separate disorder with its own mechanisms?

Both, IMO. ASD has it's own version of Schizotypal, Schizoid, or Avoidant PD built in. Depending on one's level of dysfunction and one's experiences over the years, they could develop into a separate entity. It's a matter of degree. (I've been diagnosed with all three, each at various times - as well as a slew of others.)

What accomodations did you have in mind, btw?


Motto: quis custodiet ipsos custodes (Who will guard the guards?)
07-10-2008 09:19 AM
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Max the Bear
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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

I was going to post the same thing, Batman. Sounds more similar to schizotypal.

***
Classic schizotypal personalities are apt to be loners, having few to no intimate relationships. They exhibit extreme anxiety in social situations, often associated more with distrust and an inability to communicate with others than with a negative self-image. They view themselves as alien or forlorn, and this isolation causes pain as they disengage more and more from relationships and the outside world.

People with schizotypal personalities often have odd patterns of speech and ramble endlessly on subjects tangent to a topic of conversation. They may dress in peculiar ways and have very strange ways of viewing the world around them. Often they harbor unusual ideas, such as believing in the powers of ESP or a "sixth sense." At times, they believe they can magically influence people's thoughts, actions and emotions.

In adolescence, signs of a schizotypal personality may begin as a gravitation toward solitary activities or a high level of social anxiety. The child may be an underperformer in school or appear socially out-of-step with peers, and as a result often becomes the subject of bullying or teasing.

Symptoms of schizotypal personality disorder include:

    * Incorrect interpretation of events, including feeling that external events have personal meaning
    * Peculiar thinking, beliefs or behavior
    * Belief in special powers, such as telepathy
    * Perceptual alterations, in some cases bodily illusions, including "phantom pains" or other distortions in the sense of touch
    * Idiosyncratic speech, such as loose or vague patterns of speaking or tendency to go off on tangents
    * Suspicious or paranoid ideas
    * Flat emotions or inappropriate emotional responses
    * Lack of close friends outside of the immediate family
    * Persistent and excessive social anxiety that doesn't abate with time

Schizotypal personality disorder can easily be confused with schizophrenia, which is characterized by intense psychosis, a severe mental state characterized by a loss of contact with reality. While schizotypal personalities may experience brief psychotic episodes with delusions or hallucinations, they are not as pronounced, frequent or intense as in schizophrenia.

Both disorders, along with schizoid personality disorder, belong to what's generally referred to as the "schizophrenic spectrum." Schizotypal personality falls in the middle of the spectrum, with schizoid personality disorder on the milder end and schizophrenia on the more severe end.

07-10-2008 09:37 AM
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Tigger_the_Wing
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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

For quite a while there has been a movement to get rid of the label 'schizophrenia' altogether on the grounds that it is a meaningless umbrella term for a wide variety of essentially different disorders:

BBC 10th October 2006

BBC News Wrote:


Schizophrenia term use 'invalid'


The term schizophrenia should be abolished, experts have said.
They claim the category falsely groups a wide range of symptoms and encourages over-reliance on anti-psychotic drugs rather than psychological intervention.

The academics also said the label stigmatised people as being violent, dangerous and untreatable.

But other scientists said the term should not be scrapped without finding another means of classifying patients with psychosis.

Quote:
"I think the concept is scientifically meaningless, clinically unhelpful and ultimately has been damaging to patients"
Richard Bentall


Schizophrenia represents a complex mental health disorder. Symptoms vary from person to person, but include delusions, hallucinations and disordered perceptions of reality.

It is estimated that one in 100 people will develop schizophrenia at some point in their lifetime.

But experts, speaking on the eve of World Mental Health Day, are calling for the term to be scrapped.

Richard Bentall, professor of experimental clinical psychology, from the University of Manchester, said: "We do not doubt there are people who have distressing experiences such as hearing voices or paranoid fears.

"But the concept of schizophrenia is scientifically meaningless. It groups together a whole range of different problems under one label - the assumption is that all of these people with all of these different problems have the same brain disease."

He said this can misinform treatment, and has encouraged the widespread use of "drastic biomedical interventions" as the first-line of treatment, rather than psychological help.

Although drugs were useful for some patients, too often they were given at extremely high doses and had some dangerous side-effects.

Professor Bentall said: "Overall, I think the concept is scientifically meaningless, clinically unhelpful and ultimately has been damaging to patients."

Stigmatising patients

Paul Hammersley, also of the University of Manchester, who is involved with the Campaign to Abolish the Schizophrenia Label (Castle), wants the term dropped.

He said: "It is associated with violence, dangerousness, unpredictability, inability to recover, constant illness, constant need for medication and an inability to work. I cannot emphasise enough how stigmatising this label is."

But the academics could not give a definitive answer to what should replace the term schizophrenia if it was eliminated.

They pointed to Japan, where the category schizophrenia was replaced with "integrated disorder" in 2004, as a possible model.

And Professor Bentall suggested patients should be treated on the basis of individual symptoms, as opposed to an overarching category.

Quote:
"We should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water"
Professor Til Wykes


Robin Murray, professor of psychiatry at the Institute of Psychiatry, London, said most psychiatrists accepted term schizophrenia was imperfect but warned that were it discarded another method of classification must be devised.

He said: "If we don't have some way of distinguishing between patients, then those with bipolar disorder or obsessional disorder would be mixed up with those currently diagnosed as having schizophrenia and might receive treatments wholly inappropriate for them.

"Most psychiatrists would still agree that the term schizophrenia is a useful, if provisional, concept. My personal preference would be to replace the unpleasant term schizophrenia with dopamine dysregulation disorder which more accurately reflects what is happening in the brain when someone is psychotic. "

Til Wykes, professor of clinical psychology and rehabilitation at the Institute Of Psychiatry, said: "We should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water, as despite its limitations, a diagnosis can help people access much needed services.

"What all of us have to remember is that these are people with a diagnosis of schizophrenia, not 'the schizophrenic'."

Marjorie Wallace, chief executive of the mental health charity SANE, said: "While we recognise that the term 'schizophrenia' can act as a stigmatising label, without identifying this condition as a serious illness how can there be any hope of researching it and providing better treatments?

"Simply replacing the term with another is unlikely to add to our understanding of this complex condition."


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07-10-2008 09:51 AM
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DogBrain



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

1 in 100 get schizophrenia?  Then why isn't it being touted as a HORRIBLE EPIDEMIC!?

07-10-2008 01:28 PM
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FeelingArranger



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

When I'm in bad mood and feel anxious about everything in the world I simply drop all desires and enjoy the thought that I really don't need to accomplish anything.
That state of mind seems to be the definition of schizoid personality?

But I'm not like that all the time, mostly I'm quite the opposite, needing to know and have control of everything, so I really need that relax every now and then.

That ability is definetly something I've developed over time, it was even a psychologist who gave me the specific tip, to just drop and don't care sometimes.


"The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be"  -Douglas Adams
07-10-2008 07:14 PM
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FeelingArranger



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

DogBrain Wrote:
1 in 100 get schizophrenia?  Then why isn't it being touted as a HORRIBLE EPIDEMIC!?


Because the ignorant quackers are busy with us atm.


"The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be"  -Douglas Adams
07-10-2008 07:15 PM
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Callista



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

I am an Aspie with many of the traits of schizoid personality disorder.

Schizoid personality disorder does not have much to do with schizophrenia, though schizophrenia in its prodromal stage may look a little like schizoid personality disorder. Schizotypal PD has a connection with schizophrenia and is thought by some to be a very mild form of schizophrenia which does not impair functioning or cause distress except as a result of social isolation.

Schizoid PD is a sort of extreme-loner personality. Like all the personality disorders, it is a life-long, pervasive pattern of behavior and emotion. Unlike the other personality disorders, schizoid PD does not cause distress either for the person who has it or, usually, for those around him; and as a result many psychologists believe it does not qualify as a true mental illness but as an extreme personality profile.

Here's why Schizoid PD is not a true mental illness.

Diagnostic criteria: Match four or more of these seven. (I match exactly four: 1, 2, 3, and 5.)

Quote:
           1. neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
           2. almost always chooses solitary activities
           3. has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
           4. takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
           5. lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
           6. appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
           7. shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity

Only #4 could be considered to be at all troublesome--but you could have one obsessive special interest and still  qualify because you don't enjoy anything else. Most of the rest is a matter of showing little emotion and few social connections.

Quote:
B. Does not occur exclusively during the course of schizophrenia, a mood disorder with psychotic features, another psychotic disorder, or a pervasive developmental disorder and is not due to the direct physiological effects of a general medical condition.

Here's why I (and any other Aspie) doesn't qualify as schizoid PD--because having Asperger's automatically disqualifies us from also having this particular personality disorder. The only possible exception would be someone who had been social-but-clumsy in childhood and adolescence, but withdrew from society afterwards--and even then a better explanation would be an episode of depression, which is the most likely cause for a formerly social person withdrawing into isolation.

However, "Asperger's with schizoid traits" is highly possible. Those of us who are not strongly motivated to interact with other people tend to be warned off by failing at it whenever we try--leading to the conclusion that a solitary life is better and happier. Add to that asexuality and a tendency not to express emotions, and you have someone who would present with a textbook case of schizoid personality--if he weren't also autistic.


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07-11-2008 02:32 AM
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micgrace
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Post: #14
RE: Schizoid traits and AS

Callista, I suppose you could consider schizoid personality disorder (SPD) a co-morbid then?


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07-11-2008 02:38 AM
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Callista



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RE: Schizoid traits and AS

I don't think it's a disorder. But yes.


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07-11-2008 04:32 AM
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