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Autism and Jewish People
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
I thought one could be Jewish based on either: 1. ethnicity (inherited from the mother, and... either from the Northern European strain or the middle Eastern/"gypsy" strain) 2. religion or 3. culture
The bottom line is, the mother must be Jewish in order to be part of the tribe -- unless you officially convert -- which is really more like being adopted into a tribe. But having a Jewish ancestor back there somewhere does not make you Jewish unless the line is unbroken (and converting to another religion breaks it, because you are leaving the tribe). Jews do not recognize a "gypsy" strain, whatever that is, I never heard the term until just now and I'm a rabbi. Jewish law is very specific about who is or is not Jewish.
Yes, Judaism, the religion, is part of it. And yes, there are "cultural" Jews like Isaac Asimov who are not religious but maintain the culture. But you cannot just declare yourself Jewish the same way you can declare yourself a Christian (or whatever). It would be like me trying to delcare myself a Sioux Indian just because I like the culture.
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 06:24 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
So in Star Trek, who's the Jew? I'm going with Kirk
Both William Shatener and Leonard Nimoy are, in fact, Jewish. But the Trek culture that is closest to Judaism is the Vulcans. The logical thought processes of Vulcans strongly resemble rabbinical (Orthodox) Judaism. In fact, the Vulcan Salute is based on a Jewish blessing gesture. If this really interests you, you can read my explanaton of it at <a href="http://www.pinenet.com/~rooster/v-salute.html"> The Jewish Origin of the Vulcan Salute.</a>
BTW, the Ferengi are NOT "Jews" - they are based on "Yankee Traders" (episode TNG "The Last Outpost.")
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 06:30 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
So in Star Trek, who's the Jew? I'm going with Kirk
Both William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy are, in fact, Jewish. But the Trek culture that is closest to Judaism is the Vulcans. The logical thought processes of Vulcans strongly resemble rabbinical (Orthodox) Judaism, which is a highly structured, ritulized way of life simiular to Vulcan. Nimoy consciously drew con thi background to develope Spock.
In fact, the Vulcan Salute is based on a Jewish blessing gesture. If this really interests you, you can read my explanaton of it at <a href="http://www.pinenet.com/~rooster/v-salute.html"> The Jewish Origin of the Vulcan Salute.</a>
BTW, the Ferengi are NOT "Jews" - they are based on "Yankee Traders" (episode TNG "The Last Outpost.")
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 06:31 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
OOPS! My browser went nuts and posted the same comment twice. If there is a moderator around, please delete one copy. Thanks!
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 06:33 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
Good point, merrymary. I am not offended, whatever you were referring to.
Another reason that Jews came out "smarter" than their European gentile neighbors is because Judaism has no monasticism. For 1000+ years in Christian Europe, the best and brightest went into the convents and monasteries because that was the only place that had books and study (i.e., Scholasticism). Monks and nuns are celebate so the Christians were in effect lowering the general IQ level of their population by removing the most intelligent people from the gene pool.
Jews were doing the opposite. Everyone was expected to marry and reproduce and, as I said earlier, marriage into a rabbinical family was highly prized. A successful businessman would often "marry up" the social scale by marrying a rabbi's daughter. Or vice versa -- a brilliant but poor rabbinical student might marry into a successful upperclass merchant family. A merchant would need good math skills as you point out, and and a rabbi would need intellectual logic skills, so these things got "married" over the centuries.
Education also played a role. Literacy among Jews (for males at least, although it is known that many of the women were literate also) was close to 100% -- still is. There are VERY FEW Jewish dropouts compared to the general population in the USA. Jewish boys traditionally started school at age 3. As we know now, stimulating the brain at an early age produces more synapses, which can actually increase intelligence. In later years, the logical debates of Talmud study also sharpened the mind. Compare this to the fact that the average Medieval gentile -- even kings and queens -- was often illiterate and, in their culture, "Judaizing" (being overly intellectual) could get you burned at the stake.
So yes, one could say "Darwinism" played a role but it was not "racial" per se, it was social. I do not know enough about Asian culture/history to say whether the same process took place. But would appear possible that, if there is an autism gene and it is in the Jewish gene pool, then the culture was selecting for it. But it was not being done consciously as any form of eugenics, it is just that Jewish culture valued autistic-type qualities and encouraged them.
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 06:57 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
One woman I work with asked me to add up a list of numbers for her and was surprised when I said I'd need a calculator, because, in her words, "you people are all mathletes." I told her that no, I'm hyperlexic, (the written word/facility with languages) which is completely different, but she just didn't seem to get it.
Alison
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, Allison! You just gave me the explanation -- and the term, "hyperlexic" -- for what I am! I have been repeatedly asked "how can you be autistic when you are such a good writer and have poor math skills?" SHEESH!!! Don't they get it that we are not clones???
BTW, not all Jews are good at math, either. I can hardly add a column of figures even WITH a calculator. A lot of Jews have been scientists but one could argue that this is due to Talmudic logical thinking patterns which are valued in the culture even by those who do not study Talmud. Talmudic logic resembles scientific method in many ways. At the very least, it teaches us to question things.
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 07:14 PM |
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Alison
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, Allison! You just gave me the explanation -- and the term, "hyperlexic" -- for what I am! I have been repeatedly asked "how can you be autistic when you are such a good writer and have poor math skills?" SHEESH!!! Don't they get it that we are not clones???
BTW, not all Jews are good at math, either. I can hardly add a column of figures even WITH a calculator. A lot of Jews have been scientists but one could argue that this is due to Talmudic logical thinking patterns which are valued in the culture even by those who do not study Talmud. Talmudic logic resembles scientific method in many ways. At the very least, it teaches us to question things.
Yeah, I know the feeling: I can add up 3+3 three times and get three different answers! But if I see a word once, it gets added into my mental landscape, complete with GPS, street directory and road signs, and I'll be able to spell it again, know it's probably language of origin, what it means exactly, and probably how long it's been in common usage.
Alison
To be ruled by tradition just means that you're letting yourself be outvoted by the dead.
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| 03-23-2009 09:24 PM |
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Alison
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
Yeah, I know the feeling: I can add up 3+3 three times and get three different answers! But if I see a word once, it gets added into my mental landscape, complete with GPS, street directory and road signs, and I'll be able to spell it again, know it's probably language of origin, what it means exactly, and probably how long it's been in common usage.
Alison
Oh, and extremely poor sentence structure above, but it's still very early in the morning here in Australia, and I'm still on my first cup of tea to wake up...
To be ruled by tradition just means that you're letting yourself be outvoted by the dead.
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Check out my DeviantArt gallery for my stories, art and photography:
http://fayzbub.deviantart.com/
I'd love to see you there!
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| 03-23-2009 09:26 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
Oh, and extremely poor sentence structure above, but it's still very early in the morning here in Australia, and I'm still on my first cup of tea to wake up...
Technically it was grammatically correct -- a bit run-on, though LOL! BTW, we are on opposite sides of the planet -- I'm in Minnesota, USA.
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 11:12 PM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
I was taking a summer training workshop for teaching children with Autism - 10 children, no Jews! 1 India/Indian, 1 Arab, 4 very blond Caucasians, 1 Asian, 1 African descent, and can't remember the others.
Hmmmmm... interesting. Of course, a lot would depend on WHERE this workshop was taught. Jews are not evenly distributed, many areas have few or none. Also, I doubt you would have any Hasidic/Orthodox Jews in the group because, as I said earlier, a lot of autistic-type behaviors are considered normal in those cultures. Plus "Jewish" is rarely listed as an ethnic group on forms, since it is generally thought of as a religion. I often write in "Hasidic Jew" under "Other" but I doubt that means anything. I probably get lumped in with "white" anyway. Weirdly, many US govt. forms consider Arabs and other Middle Eastern peoples to be "white." Try telling that to the KKK....
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-23-2009 11:22 PM |
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Aeolienne
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
German (Catholic), Irish (Catholic) and Native American with some Pentecosts thrown in.
Isn't Pentacostalism a religion rather than a race?
As the player's breath warms the fipple the tone clears.
It is time to consider how Domenico Scarlatti
condensed so much music into so few bars
with never a crabbed turn or congested cadence,
never a boast or a see-here; and stars and lakes
echo him and the copse drums out his measure,
snow peaks are lifted up in moonlight and twilight
and the sun rises on an acknowledged land.
Basil Bunting, Briggflatts
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| 03-24-2009 12:31 AM |
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Vulcan613
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
German (Catholic), Irish (Catholic) and Native American with some Pentecosts thrown in.
Isn't Pentacostalism a religion rather than a race?
Yes, it is. Pentacostalism is a type of Christianity. I think the confusion here is that people think of Jewishness as ONLY a religion as in "Catholic, Protestant, Jewish" dialogues. Jewishness is not a RACE, but it IS an ethnicity that goes beyond religion. Perhaps it is time to post the "Gershom Theory of Jews As a Tribal Culture" (which I have explained in all my books thusly):
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"....Being Jewish has ethnic and cultural dimensions as well as religious ones. In fact, neither Hebrew nor Yiddish has a word for “religion” as something separate from everyday life. Traditional Jews use the term Yiddishkeit (meaning “Jewishness”) to include everything from synagogue worship to recipes for chicken soup. That's why the phrase “of the Jewish faith” sounds strange to Jewish ears. Being Jewish is so much more than just a faith!
"Rather than define Jewishness as a religion, I prefer to think of it as a tribal culture. Anthropologists sometimes use a five-point checklist to define what constitutes a tribe, and Jews fit all the criteria:
(1) common founding ancestor story (Abraham and Sarah);
(2) common language (Hebrew);
(3) common land of origin (Israel);
(4) common religion and/or mythology (Judaism)
(5) common customs centering around traditional festivals
and foods. (Kosher laws, Jewish holidays, etc.)
Note that “religion” is only one part of this definition. Many secular or “cultural” Jews have no religious affiliation per se. If they do belong to a synagogue, it's more for social reasons, as a place to interact with fellow Jews. Nevertheless, such Jews are still considered bona fide members of the tribe..." (excerpted from "Jewish Themes in Star Trek", Gershom, pp. 22-23)
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We should also note that Jews who "convert" to Judaism are adopted into the tribe. They are given a Hebrew name plus "son or daughter of Abraham and Sarah" as their patronymic for ceremonial purposes. (Born Jews use the names of their biological parents but, since a convert does not have Jewish parents, they are adopted by the original father and mother of the Jewish tribe). The children of converts will inherit Jewishness automatically as members of the tribe. This is why there is no Jewish "race" in the biological sense, because Jews now come in all colors, from the black Jews of Ethiopia to blonde Russian Jews and everything in between.
Another factor is that Jews were raped and pillaged by gentiles for many centuries in Europe. Since Jewishness is passed down through the mother, children born of such rapes by Cossacks or Crusaders or whatever would be considered Jewish and the rapist's ancestry -
- whatever it might be -- would enter the Jewish gene pool.
"Never give up! Never surrender!" (Galaxy Quest)
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| 03-24-2009 01:08 AM |
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Pakrat
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
One woman I work with asked me to add up a list of numbers for her and was surprised when I said I'd need a calculator, because, in her words, "you people are all mathletes." I told her that no, I'm hyperlexic, (the written word/facility with languages) which is completely different, but she just didn't seem to get it.
Alison
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU, Allison! You just gave me the explanation -- and the term, "hyperlexic" -- for what I am! I have been repeatedly asked "how can you be autistic when you are such a good writer and have poor math skills?" SHEESH!!! Don't they get it that we are not clones???
Yes, I've got that too. It's not that I'm poor at maths overall - just poor at the type that involves using symbols rather than numbers. Aspies are not "supposed" to be creative either but I have been told I am creative.
Having the various skills like artistic expression and writing can overshadow other deficiencies such as lacking social skills. Often this is a good thing but not when one really needs help with something.
Kids and adults used to look at me strangely when I was very small and came out with big words eg. when I was 6, I told these people that the prawns in their rubbish bin were "tainted" because they were smelling bad. The mother said I was just making up a word and didn't know what I was talking about.
I could say big words but not write them until I was older and this is despite usually having better written than verbal skills. The gap has closed a fair bit but it has taken years and years to happen. It goes to show there is hope for us if we haven't gone through rigorous "treatments" for our autism.
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| 04-10-2009 04:18 AM |
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
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| 04-10-2009 04:54 AM |
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RE: Autism and Jewish People
Please disregard the questionnaire above, it is being spammed upon us and is unauthorised research.
also, it's linked to Autism Speaks.
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| 04-10-2009 06:18 AM |
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