The publicity though is negative. Remember the trouble with Encyclopedia Dramatica? While they were of course exaggerating, the parody represents the NT view on autistic culture; a bunch of whinny brats out to prove how smart they are. NTs will think of us this way if we keep relaying on the "so and so had AS argument".

Exactly right.

I have lived through enough *** to take this mantra as anything but empty words. I'm not willing to let me life turn to crap just because it's more of my "true" self. The true me is not a self-destructive, depressed good-for-nothing. If it were, I wouldn't want to be me.

This is bullshit. If you're lucky, it may be that it works out for you, but I can tell you, being oblivious to what other people think of you has done nothing but bring me trouble. The reason I care what other people think about me is because of very real, pragmatic knowledge, accumulated through experience: I don't want a crappy life and I don't want to die lonely and friendless.

Which is to say, it's just rude to suggest that everyone who cares what other thinks of them does it because they want to. That ignores the very real issue that many people aren't aligned with society and get very real troubles for it. Think of gay people, especially some decades ago. Think of black people, also still only decades ago. And think of everyone else who doesn't fit right into the conformist stereotype. Crap comes the way of the oblivious.

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as annoyed, I'm just saying the choice is always there, that was my main point.  Empty words for you have filled my life with purpose and satisfaction.  I never meant to imply this is how it is, seriously, it's just my opinion.

Works out for me?  Did I not state above I lost 3 jobs?  It works out because being myself > Any job.  It doesn't mean I'll be successful.  And by your own words, in your last sentence, first paragraph, you just proved me right.  Their opinions matter because you want them too.  You say you have a crappy friendless life without caring, therefore it is your decision to care.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see how pointing out the obvious is rude.  In my eyes, I'm not really insulting someone for trying to tell them that it shouldn't matter what others think o_O.  I never stated to be oblivious, or do nothing.  Obviously you have rights and should stand up for them.  But you can't give me one reason why letting other's opinions get to you helps, or makes things easier.  Stand up for your rights, be yourself, and damn anyone who wont accept you for who you are.  

I'd also like to point out, my life hasn't been easy either, in fact anyone I know has had it rough at least a couple times.  I'm not blaming you for bad stuff that happened to you, I'm just saying that if their opinion bothers you, you don't have to let it.  I've been beat up, and picked on all my life, understand you're not the only one who gets *** on, and understand that it's nothing especially worse for you, there are always people with similar problems, or in worse ones.

Learn to read, and learn to think.

I don't want anyone's opinion to matter for my life. I have no wish to go to extra lengths to satisfy anyone else's opinions.

However, if I don't, a whole load of crap is coming my way. Therefore, I have to.

It's like if you haven't eaten anything for a long time, have gone hungry for days, you'll eat almost anything that resembles food. And you'll do it regardless of how nasty it tastes. Now, this isn't because you want to eat things that taste like crap, it's because you want to survive. Similarly, if you want to survive as a sane person, and you're not extraordinarily lucky, lots of things in your life will depend on others' opinions of you; thus, these opinions will matter. Not because you want them to, but because you have to to survive, and for your own sanity to survive.

Every time people treat you badly because you don't fit it, you have two choices: either you can conform to their expectations, or you can try to change their mind. In either alternative, what they feel and think about you is important.

Every time people treat you well, it's also to a large degree because of their positive opinion of you.

Humans are social animals, and it's almost impossible to live a life today without depending on other humans; even if you could, you'd go insane in the process. Opinions matter. If you don't want a miserable life, you'll have to take that into consideration.

You've gone further, stating that people who acknowledge that it does matter, regardless of whether it should or shouldn't matter, only say that because they want it to matter.

You're saying everyone either wants to be dependent on other people's opinions of them, or they're paranoid and making up excuses. Do you not see why someone might call that rude?

See, I've tried that. Does not work.

The point is, if you're oblivious to how people feel about you and your actions or if you simply choose to not act on this knowledge, in either event, you get the same outcome. It helps to care because other people have the power to make your life miserable or wonderful. Despite what you may tell yourself, every single person's happiness is largely dependent on the whims and fortunes of that indefinite mass that is other people. I repeat: unless you want to lose jobs, friends, be picked on, be the eternal outsider without friends, unless you don't want to be happy doing whatever it is you like doing, then what other people think matters.

I'm not saying you should believe anyone who calls you a loser, or anything along those lines. I'm simply repeatedly stating the fact you ignore, that you have to uphold a delicate balance of conforming to expectations and influencing others to change their expectations if you want to get where you want in life.

Don't talk about things you have no knowledge about. You don't know how much or how little I or anyone else here have gone through. You don't know whether my life has been all rosy or living hell. You don't know who I am, you don't know me and I don't know you, so neither of us can know how the other's life has turned out so far. I refrain from baseless speculation for this reason, but that doesn't seem to stop you.

Taking this off the personal plane and putting it back on the more general plane, autistics, given that they want to lead happy lives, and given that this depends on not being rejected by society, have every interest in caring what others think of them. It's in everyone's best interest that the general opinion of them is positive, rather than negative.

You must have heard horror stories about neglect, abuse, and rejection. You must also have heard positive stories, full of hope, acception and support. The relative frequency of these two kinds of stories is determined in large part by the general opinion about and knowledge of autistics.

So it's in our best interests to care. And I'm pretty sure it's in your best interest to do so too, but what the heck, I'm not gonna tell you that you're living your life wrong. I'm just gonna establish that for most people, it is in their best interest to care.

I can understand that it might sound like a conspiracy theory, but really it's all out in the open - Autism Speaks are actively pursuing pre-natal testing research, and are actively engaged in negative publicity campaigns. They aren't doing this covertly, they're saying it in public, and unfortunately they have a lot of support for it.

I think the reason it sounds unrealistic is that genocide is often associated with wars - but negative publicity campaigns designed to reduce the number of autistic births still qualifies as genocide, as it's "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group" (from wikipedia).

To clarify, I don't think that anyone will "kill the unwilling". Forced rehabilitation, on the other hand, is going on even today.

The genocide I'm talking about is a campaign brought about by "nice" people - there's no group plotting to kill us all, just a group that would prefer that no more of us were born.

True - it's a tool that needs to be used carefully.

That being said, I think the people you're talking about are the ones that use these celebrities as a way of saying "autistics are superior" - which isn't really what I'm advocating.

You seem to have the assumption that "Have to" and "Want" are different things.  I wont go into the vastly documented studies and science proving that we're all self-serving.

Another assumption.  Lots of things CAN depends on other's opinions, it doesn't necessarily need to.  Then again, you seem to also think the bogeyman is going to come and wipe any Aspie off the face of the earth so I don't blame you for feeling like your helpless.

That is horrible reasoning - you're starting to shift into a victimizer's mentality.  You again assume that those are your only options. But really, it's because you lack the ability to find another solution.  I can name 2 other solutions just off the top of my head without any real effort. 1.  Don't conform, let them think what they want.  2.  Earn their respect, so they appreciate the differences.

So?  So you're basically telling me you'll do anything to fit in, so that you don't have to deal with the pressures of worrying whether their negative thoughts of you will make your life worse.  Also, I treat everyone equally, I will smile, or help anyone in need, unless they have wronged me - it is also possible to give people the benefit of the doubt, and have a neutral opinion, with a positive outlook.

True statement.  If don't want to prepare yourself for the consequences of not fitting in, then you are actively choosing to let them have power over you because you like it better than the alternative.  When my boss lies, I call him on it.  I may lose my job, but his opinion does not matter to me, I wont let it.  He can affect my job, but I am capable of getting other jobs, he does not affect my life, *I* effect my life.  Get it now?

And as soon as you can quote me saying these words, I will take it into consideration that maybe I've lost track of what I've said.  My whole point, which I will repeat for the third time now, in slightly different wording: is that you can chose what matters to you, you can chose to be bothered or to not be. You're not paranoid or making up excuses for making other's opinions of you important - you chose to live that way.  But do not assume that it's like that because you didn't want it to be.  Personally, I find that mentality cowardly, but then again, my opinion doesn't matter ^_^.

Well since I never argued this point. I concede, you're right.  Just what I've been saying, other's opinions matter, if you want them to.

Seeing as I didn't speak about you, merely letting you know that other's have it worse (Which you can't deny, you're on the internet, there's millions who don't even have that luxury).  I have neither spoke about something I don't know about, nor said a word about you that I didn't already know.  Not to be pissy, but I hate it when people put words in my mouth or interpret what I say, instead of read it.

As for the rest of your reply, the only reason to believe what you believe is the assumption that there is consequences.  I'll keep living my life and deal with problems that arise, and you can keep catering to others so they don't treat/think of you poorly.  I hope one day you're not stretched so thin you forget who you are.

Zakkie...

But you think that just because one organization is speaking out about it, that it will make a difference?  Do you know how many people would be against it?  

Lets put this in perspective.  Here in America, the majority are Christian, and Republicans.

Why is it then, that abortion has not been outlawed, and gay marriage is being lawful in more and more states?  Not only is the entire liberal sphere going to be defending you, but so will the AACLU and other various organizations.  If one organization had any real hold over your lives, the KKK would be knocking at your door and asking where the black people are in your town.

I know it's scary, but you have to realize there's almost no possibility of any bill going through to make it compulsory to abort, kill, or correct autistic children.  In the long run, it will be up to the parents who have the kid in the first place.

An after thought to my first post, I didn't take too much time reading the statement.

But basically, earning their respect is a form of changing their mind, so I'll renege that statement.  "Without much effort" indeed lol.  I should have taken more effort.

I think we may have misinterpreted each other.

I don't believe that it will ever be compulsory to abort or kill autistic children - what I'm talking about is negative publicity campaigns, combined with pre-natal testing. This still fits the definition of genocide, as it is a measure designed to prevent births within the group.

Note that this doesn't say "prevent all births within the group". If the autistic figure is anything like the Downs Syndrome figure, though, 91-93% of autistic fetus's will be aborted, which will be enough to wipe us out in a couple of generations.

And unfortunately, very few people are against this.

Autism Speaks does not have the same stigma as the KKK - they are a major charity organisation, and are generally thought well of. People support them via misguided compassion, not via bigotry. Celebrities support them, major corporations (such as Toys 'R' Us & Starbucks) sponsor them. The things they do, they do because society supports them.

Ah I see.  When you said genocide I thought you meant instantaneous - my bad ^_^.  Like some men in black would come around to kill off the ones alive, and prevent their births.  So really, the problem is once again for people not thinking for themselves huh?

Thats the reason I don't really like people.  It really is just all up to the parents, however, downs syndrome doesn't seem like a good comparison.  Retardation is a far cry away from autism.  Downs syndrome really is a hindrance to everyone who has it, despite how self-efficient they are, it's never near what someone without it is.

I guess people feel they can be smart/talented without autism so they feel that it's an inconvenience more than a benefit.  I like the normal course of nature though >,<.

Say you're trying to consider whether you, as chief of the US armed forced, should drop the a-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or risk prolonging the war indefinitely and maybe suffer even harder losses--or your bet might turn out well, the war will quickly be over, and the civilian losses will be much smaller than if you drop the bomb. Now, whatever you do, lots of people will die. Would you say that this choice of death is because you want people to die? I would say that you don't want people to die, you were forced to make that choice. It would be incorrect to state that the people responsible for making that decision did so because they wanted lots of people to die.

And that is the difference between wanting and being forced to do something.

No, but more often than not they do. Whether you will have friends, a job, a good relationship with your parents, the house you want, whether you're able to pursue your interests, whether you'll find a mate or die lonely and childless, whether you'll live rich or live poor, what education you'll get--all these things depend on other people's opinions of you. Some clearly more than others, and in some situations, extraordinary situations, what you do will matter more than what people think. But more often than not, it will.

You're making assumptions again, and again your assumptions are wrong.

I was assuming you'd want an end to the bad treatment. If you're a masochist, go ahead. If not, then choosing 1) will only prolong the bad treatment. Choosing 2) would either be a different wording of 1), or it would be trying to change their opinion of you, which entails caring about what other people think--depending on what you mean.

You're once again making assumptions wildly off the mark. I have said no such thing as "[I'll] do anything to fit in". This isn't binary. There's a difference between never doing anything to fit in, always doing everything to fit in, and sometimes doing something to fit in.

You effect your life, but your boss clearly affects your life.

You're not actively choosing to "let people have control over you". People do have control over you. It's inevitable. We live in society--in society, people exert power over people. No man is an island, and no man is unaffected by the power other people exert on them.

I'm guessing you don't say you're actively choosing to let people have control over you simply because you choose to live in society, as opposed to, say, becoming a hermit on a faraway mountain top.

Since you don't care what I say, I don't feel bad for calling you an idiot. This is idiotic.

Once again, you seem completely unable to see the conceptual distinction between doing something because you want to, and doing something out of necessity. I need fluid and food and shelter, and I'm willing to do very much to get it. Now, I live quite comfortably and don't have to go out of my way to get these essentials, but if I were extremely poor, I might well be stealing, threatening, fighting, maybe even killing for water, food and shelter. Many people do live like that, because if not they die. They don't choose to live a life wherein they'll have to steal, they do it because they have to.

And if you don't want life to become a string of disappointments, you'll either have a mentality that is inborn (I say this because you apparently are fine with the way your life turns out, despite not caring what other people think--well, if that's the case, you're endowed with a mind of a kind that I don't have and can't will myself to have, and neither can most people), or be exceptionally lucky.

Neither is something a person can choose to do. You can't choose to be lucky, nor can you will yourself to be happy with the consequences of not giving a *** what other people think about you. For most people, this is contrary to their goals of living good lives.

Do you think people can choose not to want happiness?

If not, then you might see that for many people, this happiness is entirely dependent on the opinions of others, whether they like it or not (I for one, don't particularly like this realization). So, they don't choose it, it happens out of necessity. Anything else would be contrary to their nature.

You wrote, "understand that it's nothing especially worse for you". How the hell could you know? You don't. Of course there are always worse things that could happen, but that doesn't mean something isn't "especially worse". Say, if you're talking about a victim of a brutal rape (note: this is an example, and only an example), you'd be wrong to say, "Hey, there are people who get abused to death! This is nothing especially worse for you!" And so it is with everything else.

I acknowledge that there are always people who have gone through worse, but setting aside extremes, you don't know *** about me and therefore cannot tell how good or bad my life has been up to this point. Quit making faulty assumptions.

Wow. It's all binary to you, is it? There is a large continuum between doing nothing without getting acceptance from peers, and doing nothing   to ever get acceptance from peers. There is a large difference between someone who's unable to think or act for themselves unless they're certain they'll conform to society's norms, and someone who realizes that sometimes one needs to either conform or change the norms, for living on the side of the norms will often not be beneficial.

This isn't black and white.

I think this whole thing is pretty simple, and it looks like you'd both probably actually agree if you both stopped butting heads.

People choose the degree to which they wish to fit in based on the things they want, and the things that are important to them.

Simen, you choose to do so more than Zachrates. Zachrates, you find personal expression to be more important than achieving goals.

Neither of these positions is incorrect, as they both apply to only one person - yourself. No-one gets to choose the criteria for another persons happiness.

*grins* No probs.

I think Downs Syndrome has some of the same sorts of negative publicity as autism. I don't know a large number of Downs people, but the one I do know is quite socially adept (i.e. loud, funny, and well-liked), and is also quite an avid political activist.

I do know that there are accomplished Downs artists & actors. I've even heard that they have their own neurodiversity activists - though I've never actually met one.

Also, negative publicity campaigns on autism are far worse than those on Downs Syndrome.

Imagine if pre-natal testing for autism was available today, and a pregnant women was told her child may be autistic:

She might remember the NSW autism ads that I grew up with, with the slogan "What disorder can stop a child from loving their dog?".

She might go looking on the net, and find numerous blogs from parents moaning about how autism "stole their childs soul".

She might remember the numerous news articles about the autism "epidemic", or various autism "tragedies".

She might have seen Autism Speaks "Autism Everyday" video - featuring lots of kids having tantrums (no other footage of the kids was shown), parents complaining about their lives, and including the woman that stated she thought about "putting her autistic daughter in a car, and driving off a bridge". She also goes on to say the only reason she didn't so this is that she has another "normal" daughter at home. All said within earshot of her autistic daughter, of course.



Of course, I could be wrong, and the autistic abortion percentage could be, say, closer to the 70% mark - which would still be enough to do the job.