Hmmm, it's interesting to watch the birth of a nation (and I'm not referencing the Klan, by the way). One can naturally expect to have supremacists when Ethnogenesis is occuring, as some people believe that their new identity makes them superior to others - it's nationalism by another name, and provided that they have a creative outlet for it (for example, proving why they are superior by building a state), it ought to be rendered pretty harmless, albiet unhealthy. I must wonder how long it will take, though, before a significant minority of Autists consider themselves seperate from the rest of the nations and take upon themselves to be the carriers and parents of a new culture and a new nation (the definition of which is, alas, rather blurry).

Autists are not, however, baseline humans by my understanding, as they lie outside the 95% limits for at least one major human trait group (not that I have discovered what that is yet). Nearbaselines, yes...

I guess the mention of John Zerzan and primitivism caused me to want to "bump" this!  Oddly, I take a somewhat nuance standpoint.  I think that originally it was Aspies who were looked up to in Cro Magnon societies, while perhaps not as much among Neanderthals.  This specialization, starting about 30,000 years ago or so, is something Zerzan has critiqued.  

As much as I admire him, there might be something of the Neurotypicalist in Zerzan's otherwise fascinating and insightful line of thought (perhaps blaming us for technology and computers).  My sense is that the original specialization was one of respect among equals.  However, this original specialization eventually led to Astronomer-Priests who were admired for predicting eclipses.  Initially they were Aspie and non-coercive.  Yet, they lost out to NT style power plays and the dawn of hierarchical civilization, agricultural serfdom, and slavery came about with the downfall of Aspie-ness as a valued commodity.  The Neolithic in all of its brutality was born. It is at that point, and not before, that I would say that what could have been the growth of a non-coercive and egalitarian form of civilization had the Aspie path been followed became the "civilization" we have known throughout the 10,000 year history of civilization.

Zerzan does not quite see the different phases of it all.  He criticizes cave art as being a sign of emerging class differences, a Puritanism that I find a bit too much for me.  However, I am glad that he has written what he has written to shake up Anthropology and to point out that human "progress" has not always been progressive.  He is certainly correct that human dominance of Nature has also meant human dominance over humans, a sad state of affairs indeed.

diehard rationalist returns

[quote=redbirdny]
[quote=Autistic_Shoes]
Thanks for all your replies. Taking Victor13d' s comments. The reason why I have the Asperger personality before the tribal personality is simple. If it had come after we would have all inherited tribal characteristics. Convention thinks "disorder" ie these characteristics have been lost. It makes much more sense to think they wern't there in the first place than somehow the brain malfunctionioned and rather carlessly lost them.
Saint: Thanks. Asperger wasn't quite the great hero everybody thinks he is. His work was based on eugenics which wasn't one of the sounder branches of science. The Asperger personality didn't just happen over night its always been there. In 1652 it was the personality that formed the Quakers. Their beliefs are all based on the Asperger personality.
I'm full of fascinating useful facts. Well at least I think they are. The tribe and the Asperger personality did come together and the Aspie formed the special place of religious leader to the tribe. This was after the minds were formed.

Hi - do you have any reference sources that link A.S. with the Quakers? I would like to research this interesting point because I have always felt an affinity with Quakers and Sufis.

I have come at this from a quite different direction and suspect that Asperger's personality is in fact an incomplete but very necessary evolutionary change working its way through the human race. I am looking back on human prehistory. It seems (as best as we are able to figure) that about 70,000 years ago human kind was on the brink of extinction both Mitochondrial DNA and the "Y" chromosome show that at somewhere about this time there were only a few thousand Humans alive. We the human race did nothing expanded not at all for the first 150,000(aprox) of our existence as a race. We invented nothing, made no art, and did not expand out of our very small home range in south east Africa.

Then suddenly we not only recovered we began to thrive like never before. in less than 10,000 years we had filled all of Africa and had left that content and were well on our way to filling all the world. At this same time we began to invent new weapons and tools we began to make art. Obviously, some great change began to over take humanity. The only thing in the modern world that fits the bill for this is Asperger's and autism. We know that it must have entered the human race before we left Africa as it is in all races if it had come about after we had started our great migrations there would be populations of humans with out it.

I do have to admit it is a bit of personal prejudice on my part that says that we must have first appeared during the near extinction event as I just cannot see how we the Asperger's personalities could have managed to sit around and do nothing and think no new thoughts for 150,000 years. It is just now our way.

This is a way over simplified look at this concept but it should be enough to get you looking into it more as I am still doing.

After looking into this I feel that the rise of Asperberg's / autism is the only thing that fits well in this situation. It also explains why such a difference exists among living humans today. Like many evolutionary changes through time it has not been neat, clean or instant and is still on going.

This post was last modified: 04-30-2012 01:32 PM by mels8780.

Thanks, Ivar T

Just in case some people did't follow your link:

"... let me tell you about David. I was locked up with David. He had Down’s syndrome and, like a disproportionate number of people with Down’s syndrome, he was also autistic. He made one sound over and over again, and was regarded as “not being in there”. But everyone but some of the staff valued him for who he was. To us, he was another person, a real person, not a mistake or a defect. To some of us, he was a friend. The problem was not that he was autistic, not that he had Down’s syndrome, and not that he was classified as low-functioning, but that he was born into a world where these things are not considered compatible with full personhood. Amanda Baggs"

[this post was written for

Aspies For Freedom Forums / General / General / Another forum with people less prone to stereotyping?

but cross posted here because I used quotes from this thread]

If you all still cannot understand after reading the following, I think it is a choice of your part to not understand.

LFA/Classical Autism = evolutionary junk  (EJ) theory: blatant example (and hidden behind Jim Crowism by the more enlightened among us)

Recent examples

This statement reeks of Jim Crow (“separate but equal”) policies resulting in disavowed discrimination. <Patting the little retards gently on the head with a kind smile before returning them to the institution>

I am being harsh on Alison who conveniently provided a recent example of discrimination AFF.  I know Alison to be an intelligent and very decent person, and I used her words to highlight what is too insidious to be perceived by so many (i.e. “Oh, I didn’t mean it THAT way”).  



I know that I risk banning to quote from another thread, but here is my neck - cut off my head. (I will post this entire post there too)

The following includes statements supporting a more defined negative discrimination of one group of autistics against another. ῦ boasts many administrative stars, and so clearly represents AFF view of blatant EJ Theory.

If one goes to
Aspies For Freedom Forums / General / Aspergian Ideas / The cause of Asperger's : Evolution
You will be able to read the defense for those labeled LFA/classical quickly:

Yes 1 person out of 202 comments recognized and stood against the negative stereotyping.

This post was last modified: 05-05-2012 06:56 PM by awiddershinlife.

This came out all wrong

I meant this was irrational thinking of person holding the belief this would be a way of improving their status, not in reality.

This kind of hierarchical thinking is very damaging. I used this example because it is one that has been prevalent, discussed, and measured. Not because it has any validity.

No group of people are better than another, and one person's misfortune does not elevate another persons intrinsic worth.

All people are equal in intrinsic value. Do not confuse that for them all being equal in extrinsic value. A mechanic is worth more than a programmer when your car needs fixing, even though they are instrinsically worth the same. Evolution cares only for extrinsic worth.

The range and complexity of autism argues for a polygenetic cause, but that doesn't change the fact that someone high functioning is extrinsically worth more than someone who is low functioning, and hence can pass on the autism alleles to the next generation.

Someone who's impaired so much that they drain a lot of resources from the system *is* useless. That's not to say that they're worthless - intrinsically, they're worth the same as anyone else. But as I've said before, when you're comparing lives, you can - and must - discount their instrinsic value, which is equal for everyone. Sorry, but there is a place for utilitarianism.

Now, the question is, what can we do to help those who are more impaired by their autism live happy, fulfilling, and importantly *productive*, lives. Merely keeping them wholly dependent is not the answer. If we don't want autism to be eradicated, we've got to show that we're equals. The blacks did not wait for white man to decide to give them rights before they started excercising them. Showing that it's possible for someone with severe autism to contribute to society in a tangible way is only the start.

Do I believe it's evolution? Maybe. But when did mankind have to evolve in a single direction?

Magneto exists so that I will appear superior: I look better, act better, and smell better because he is so lowly.

But please, folks, remember that poor little magneto does have intrinsic value despite how pathetic he appears and also please do not think that I feel superior to him in any way.

...What?

Did you even bother to read what I said, or do you want a gardener to perform heart surgery on you, because he's just as valuable as a trained surgeon? Or would you rather people do what they're good at? To deny that some people are better than others at a given thing goes beyond mere willful stupidity into what I must call malicious stupidity, for want of a better phrase.

I am still better than you magneto (extrinsically speaking)!!  I am your genetic superior. Your existence justifies me!!!

But intrinsically, I respect you. And the others who supported a 202 comment thread disrespecting an entire group of people (including the many starred administer).

I am going the way of Heinrich anyway....

Me talking this way doesn't feel good to you does it?

There have been both threads and videos posted. If you want to learn more you can. You can even got to know some people first hand who have been filed away under "LFA".

Educate yourself or not, but I will not tolerate an entire forum that condones ignorant, hurtful comments - forms and supports damaging theories that negate an entire class of people (please do some background googling on genetics so you all don't come off so ridiculous in your negative prejudices) at the administrative level.

Let me see if I can better explain what Magneto was getting at. HFAs and aspies are much more likely to be able to live independently and to pass on their genes to future generations.

That's not to say that LFAs are without value, or even of less value. Many of them have beautiful artistic abilities. Those who can write or type eloquently have shown that they can be amazing thinkers.