IF..and ONLY IF, you are wrong...you owe more than the utterances of apology. You have drawn first blood. You must expect them to be angry..of course, in appropriate relation to the offense. You allow that. You correct the offense...and, this is important...you pay back..with interest.

Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right (be assertive...fight the good fight...the honorable one). If someone tries to make you apologize for something they had done, they are seeking dominance and should you cave in...the short term effect may be one of "peace"...but the long term effect is one of no self respect and thereafter, getting no respect from them. It will increase to no end. If you know you are right...and can show the other person objectively and convincingly...that they are wrong...THEY are being stubborn...they will seek to impose their will upon you...knowing you will cave. You will have sold your soul to the devil...and shall live your life in hell so long as they are in your life.

Apologize correctly and you have the right to expect it in return. With this, and only with this...progress can be made.


Thoughts on this?

Well, it's made more complicated by 'the way it's said'. There, you can be 'right' in WHAT you said and 'wrong' in the WAY. Only it's almost never possible for me to find what 'way' people are talking about. And it's not even agreed that I'd know what way I meant to say anything.

Usually there's more than one view on any topic. So ... I think your advice(?) is ... incomplete.

I once more see my values echo'ed back at me.
I teach my kids that if they do the wrong thing then acknowledge the wrong, apologise, seek to right the wrong, make a concerted effort not to do it in future.
It is so simple. I take the same line myself. IF I am wrong and see it as such I will not shirk from it.
If I am right then I will fight tooth and nail. If someone seeks to dominate or beat me down I will fight it.
The whole concept of "people in authority" holding more sway or dominance, I have never appreciated or understood. Right is right and wrong is wrong and to minimise this minimises us, ultimately.

You can't apologise sincerely to someone you're playing, and crazy people, particularly ones in positions of authority, need to be played. Last two years I've learned how to play everyday crazy people, telling them what they want to hear, apologising not where necessary but where they believe is necessary. It means there's no respect between you but if you do it right you have the power. I'm not certain I see another way of dealing with them, unless you don't mind getting fired by most idiots. Your way is purer, Shiroi, but less practical.

That is why the emphasis on KNOW.  And don't forget the rest of the thread...if you can show them objectively and convincingly they are wrong.

This is also a general rule....not a golden one...if in doing so...you risk the long term...your job...just document and don't insist....take it up at another time...preferably after you have found another job.  

What kind of job would consist of you taking someone else's blame?  Perhaps you may have to keep quiet at the moment...but you would be foolish to not document and save evidence....anything worth hiding by the uppers is worth being able to prove your innocence later.  You may otherwise find out you have been played for a patsy.

Yes...and if more parents taught this....can you imagine how people would relate to one another...with fairness.  Knowing they would be called on it...they would be far more careful in the first place.

Absolutely.

@ OP    On the internet that philosophy  would lead to flame wars , if disagreeing parties refuse to back down and agree to disagree.

In an objective argument...one where right and wrong can be established...it is through mutual cowardice that both "agree to disagree".  It is allowing the status quo...which the incorrect party counts on in the first place....just place a big enough threat and everyone must back down...because in their minds...to win..or at least to not lose...is far more important than what is right.  

For the person who is right, to abdicate moral correctness is to desert all those whom are dependent upon the situation changing.  Just for the argument to use as a future reference in their defense.  It also demonstrates to those who seek to profit from wrong...that they have a much better chance of getting away with it...because no one is there to challenge them and their deception...greed...evil.

First..you've got to know the difference between right and wrong.  Don't do wrong...you will have nothing to apologize for.  Just concentrate on being right.

Try not to speak...try to show through your actions.

That is why in certain religious sects...there is a code of silence...it is to force the initiates to do good...not merely think and say it.  Most concentrate on memorizing texts of information...it is in the application that is of importance...and the true effort and sacrifice.

DO good acts in life...and you will have lived life well.

This post was last modified: 08-30-2010 03:15 PM by Shiroi Tora.

Um. Since you're saying that, you can't be saying that all talk is 'wrong'. Take that away and there is no 'right' to do, anyway. Then, the 'way' applies to actions. So, if it's relevant in anything I say, it is also in what I do. How many times the supposed difference is some part of the 'way'! Which version of morality are you talking about?

Please understand that I am an atheist...I have no theism....it is false that only religious people are moral...or that they have even the appropriate morals.

What is right for you is also what is right for all...we are talking about basic good and evil...right and wrong.

EX.: For humans...to take unjustifiably...anything from another that is rightfully his...is wrong.  This includes life.  

I can go into great detail into the essence of right and wrong and good and evil...perhaps this Wed or Thurs night.  It is a basic moral, I had incorrectly thought, everyone had known.

I don't think there's much argument about the part you mention. Problem being the rest! It's as indisputable in any discussion that I've been in that, for most stuff, it's far more the 'way' it's said or done. As in, you could take food out to the homeless with the genuine desire to help them or to try to manipulate them, for an eg. I'm sure there are plenty more. And that's where any good I tried to do goes wrong! Then, suddenly, the whole thing collapses.

There will always be people, who because of their displeasure in the place in life they are, will try to bring others down...so as to not feel so low in comparison to others.  They are not to be your concern.

Think and move in a simple manner.  Try to limit any unnecessary movement in motion....and any unnecessary words in speaking.  Limit the volume and intonations.  Try to be humble in every way...keep a pure heart and purpose...do these things...and it will be their fault...and not yours.

Worry about building yourself...there will be those that attempt sabotage...they can only become successful if you allow them.  

Think of ways to improve yourself and your situation in life...those should be your goals.  Cut out the unnecessary drains on your time and energy.  Work on you.  That is your path.