You know, sometimes I wonder whether NTs "sharing" these emotions isn't a way to subconsciously try and "pass on the burden", or lessen the impact for the individual. Perhaps we are just more sensitive to the loss of experience/emotion when having to share these things?

It does look like that.  I've observed that people seem to get something out of sharing their emotions, some sort of comfort, but I don't understand it.  I don't tell anyone something is wrong unless there's something they can do to help me with it, and there usually isn't.  I don't want to burden people I care about with anything they can't change, I don't want them to feel as helpless as I do.

Just yesterday my sister (safe person) and I went to see the new "Pirates of the Caribbean" movie, and on the way there I asked her about the way she, our older sister and our mother like to tell everyone they can about every conversation they have, every phone call they make, every thing they do, in detail, over and over, which looks exhausting and illogical.  I asked my sister if everyone does this, and she said she didn't know, but I didn't think just then to ask her why.

Maybe it's a way of figuring things out.  Maybe if you go over a situation aloud over and over, you begin to see it more clearly and thus determine out how to proceed.

Hmm.  <hugs>

Athie

You certainly speak well for everyone, thank you.

I've got to be honest.  This is the kind of thing that makes me think I don't even belong to Aspergia.

Interesting. From my observations, my preliminary conclusion is that not everybody repeats conversations in the same way, and I think not all for the same reasons.
Some (not all) people repeat literally "she said... and then I said ...". The purpose might be just communicating with eachother, to achieve a feeling of being together.
Some people maybe share the conversations they had to convince themselves they said the right things, to reduce uncertainty. Another reason might be to create or maintain a certain image of themselves, and repeating discussions to others helps them to impress the person they're talking to now. Or perhaps sometimes they do it for fun, to make others laugh.

I don't understand - first you say the poster spoke well for everyone and then you turn around and use the very same quote to complain about how it doesn't apply to you?!

Perhaps Homo-sapiens-sapiens....sapiens

...

I remember when I was younger I always wanted to do things in another way than others did, I probably still do, as it avoids competition and comparing yourself to others.
[/quote]

The first comment was supposed to be biting sarcasm (as in, he's talking about how those with AS are so good at Math and crap like that, and I'm nutmeg dumb in most academic areas).

But I guess some of you didn't read it that way.

Ah, good points here.  These possibilities cover more situations than what I'd previously theorized, thank you.  I think I'll try to keep this in mind next time I'm overhearing a conversation, and try to see where it might fit.  

My sister, I know, is prone to telling stories that make one laugh; she especially does it when I get quiet.  Since she's the one I go to about this stuff, I'll ask her about this again, now that I have more to say.  Thank you again, Five!

<hugs>

Athie

That quote is signature-worthy!

This pretty much sums it up. Too much sensory overload at times, blank aloofness at others. Attempting to overcome phobias and fit in ta times, and at other times zoning out in one's own world. Struggling to overcome obstacles at work and socially, only to become labelled once again. A whirl of thoughts and emotions that noone seems to see. Precision and calculation in one area, only to fele completely retarded in some other area. {typing and finding the letter coming out backwards as you type them} Rapid inattention and scanning quickly through material to gain a brief understanding without reading all the words, or gaining the full meaning. DySrEGuLAtiON.

I am also much better at reading people than the aspie steroetype which leads to, actually, more anguish. In other words, I am fully aware of people's power motivations, social heirarchy, caste, manipulation, and know when people are either uninterested or gauging what I have to say.

Oh, right.  But I have my fair share of learning disabilities (from having Asperger's) and executive dysfunction.  There are certain things that, honestly, I'm much worse than both AS *and* NTs in.  Other things (like the size of my vocabulary; also creative/divergent thinking) I am well above average in, but these have little practical application esp. seeing as I have no practical life skills (sp. social skills) and no willingness to gain them.  I'm a stubborn mule and proud of it.

Aspies are honest, and so am I, even it includes putting myself down.  It's not a putdown if it's true.

And besides, I hate working on things that I'm "much below average" in anyway... that is illogical to me.  I'd much rather work on something I get a thrill out of, and it seems Aspies favor this approach as it is.

Basically I need some kind of stimulation or at least an "interest level" going, or I won't do the work.  This attitude quickly brought me to dropping out of many classes in school, since I didn't have social skills for group work OR natural interest in the area(s), I found no reason to stay.  I was bored and I couldn't pay attention to the subject material, so "f**k it" is the attitude.

I'm not a logical Aspie, I'm actually an impulsive/right-brained one; it doesn't seem like a good "set-up" where education is concerned.  It seems like the extreme left-brained/logical ones fare much better.

Yes I complain, but since I have no desire to improve my s**t areas, oh well.  I change for no man.. or woman.

Shallow?  That's grossly oversimplified -- it's almost like when a NT calls an autistic person selfish.  
Simple?  How so?  Complex emotions?  Complex thought?  
Unpredictable?  If NTs were unpredictable then Aspies wouldn't be identified as different.  It's the fact that aspies' lines of conduct do not follow the patterns that NTs do that make them be classified as different, "eccentric," etc.
Driven by strange urges that make no sense?  Come on, now -- just because it's not obvious to you doesn't mean that it's senseless.  

Are you ever going to understand how a NT works fully?  Probably not; imagination only goes so far.  But that doesn't mean that you cannot understand them at all.  If you don't feel like taking the time to understand, that's your choice and certainly your right, but don't make judgments out of ignorance.  I'm not attacking you, so please don't take offense to any of this.  I knew (or at least knew of) the autistic teen I've been mentoring long before I began mentoring him and before I knew he was autistic or what autism was, I assumed he was crazy.  He definitely did not deserve that label, but, out of ignorance, my friends and I believed it was appropriate.  I am no more deserving of those labels than my (now) friend deserved to be labeled crazy.

Every thing a person do is some how motivated by selfishness. An NT is shallow to me, because they are usually very interested in other peoples attention for things like, haircut, new car silicon implants...They have more "vanity issues", and unfortunately this influence everyday decisions. Also most NT's do many things, because "everybody else does", How shallow isn't that?!
By being socially disconnected/independent you also become more conscious and make your own decisions about things. Your more likely to use your own brain, then to depend on others.

What about the "Complex emotions" that makes you all become pretty predictable, and doing mainly the same things as anybody else?!
Today I told my son a couple of easy things. If you don't like football, pretend to like football, until you start liking football, and you will get friends. And I asked him; "why don't you want to be with the others?" He says: "They only tell stupid jokes about farting and stuff like that". I told him 3 new jokes about farting today. He, he.. He's being bullied already for having different interests than other's. He is 8Yo ,and unfortunately it seams like his main interest is science. ""
I'm not going to comment your "Coplex thought?" issue, ..more than this; <- .

NT's use hidden language like hinting. They also change their opinion of what they want to do, based on emotional impulses. They also use "double language" like To aunt-Helga they say. "ooh, you got a nice haircut", and two seconds later they say, "I don't understand why aunt Helga always have the same ugly haircut".

Hm.. To me, wanting to go to a night club full of people, going shopping just for foun.., is pretty strange and senseless.

.."I'm not attacking you, so please don't take offense to any of this."..  What is that supposed to mean?!
"That, if any of the offending things you write actually offend me, I shouldn't respond, because I probably don't understand F E L I N G S ?!".

I believe I have the full spectrum of feelings.
Unlike NT's, I believe that I'm very much in control of my feelings, and I'm not run by automatical-emotional-reflexes.
This unfortunately some times makes me slow and unable to respond emotionally spontaneously and "properly" enough.
So I believe I experience normal felings, and I analyze them, but I'm not sure I always have the right way of responding in a way that an NT would expect.

When I wrote: .."
I never felt very normal, and I never felt that I wanted to be normal.
Normal people is shallow, simple, unpredictable and driven by strange urges that makes no sense.
".. I wanted to say to the Aspies/HFA that they don't miss much.
If you disagree to that I would prefer that you reply in a Private Message.

Please tell us why.

Yes.  We certainly know compassion.
I think I only teased one guy in ninth grade, and no one for the rest of high school.  I feel sorry now, but I thought I was retaliating then.

Abuse is the best way to learn compassion, you think?

I really like that wording, "Blank aloofness". Although I think the overload is often responsible for this in the first place...

If you haven't read it yet, you might enjoy reading Temple Grandin's book "Animals in Translation"

I merely feel accused of being a monster.  Shrek I is a very true to life movie, except if my first gf had been Fiona she'd be back in a tower right now.

Wow! What a great point. I've often wondered about this... sometimes I find myself a little jealous of the NT ability to just spontaneously express and share things with those around them. When I try to do it, it is very conscious and forced, and I don't feel good about it. I wonder, why is it so simple for others to just say what they are thinking and feeling? I really wish I could "connect" to others that way and get on the same vibe.

All my most intense experiences have been alone.

As a child, I used to play by myself for hours and hours and hours in the sand. Growing up, my "emotional life" was played out sitting on a computer. If I played with friends at all, it was nearly always one on one, and usually in a highly focused activity or complex fantasy game (role playing, making animated claymation movies, video games, etc.) - there had to be some kind of "hook" to keep us locked into the same reality. Otherwise, I couldn't seem to just enjoy the simple company of others well. Even though I enjoy the exercise somewhat, sports have always held very little interest for me - I wonder if it's because I don't really appreciate or "get" the "team" aspects of working together, bonding, sharing, or connecting... I'm usually too acutely aware of my body aching, feeling sweaty, breathing hard, etc.

As I've gotten older, it's been more of the same "experiencing life as a lone wolf" - I traveled for a year on my own and didn't really miss my friends or family. I met lots of people while away, but once we parted, they left my life - "out of sight, out of mind". Abstractly, I worry I should miss them more.

Normally my "independent nature" doesn't bother me, but at 25 and done school (an intense source of focus for most of my life), I now feel very lonely about life. It's finally occurred to me how "stuck in my head" I am, and how much of life I have lived on my own. If I map out my "social network" in my head, I see how few people there are in it. I feel like a stranger to even my own family...

It's a big worry. Sometimes, I feel trapped that I will never actually be a part of anyone else's life again, or they mine. As time's gone on, the isolation has become more pronounced. While my peers become more socially advanced, I seem to be regressing as I am able to relate less and less. Sometimes I don't leave the house for days, and in social gatherings, I tend to sit mum and motionless. More and more, I feel like I've "forgotten" how to be a human being. I feel more kinship toward cats and other non-verbal creatures... Sometimes I wish I could stick a sign on myself that would read, "Caution: Aspie. Approach with caution. Do not feed or make direct eye contact."

As you get older, life is much less about "what you know" and much more about "who you know" - not just in terms of career connections, but just quality and breadth of experience. I account a lot of my current existential poverty to poor social connections. I'm sure this is something many Aspies struggle with.

One solution seems to be to consciously seek and establish community and participation - to enroll one's self in the "school of sociability" so to speak, so that regular social contact is unavoidable, even though it might not always be actively sought or appreciated at the time. I fear doing this because I know I can get pretty drained in social settings, but I see now that the alternative of complete isolation is not pleasant either.

Every thing a person do is some how motivated by selfishness. An NT is shallow to me, because they are usually very interested in other peoples attention for things like, haircut, new car silicon implants...They have more "vanity issues", and unfortunately this influence everyday decisions. Also most NT's do many things, because "everybody else does", How shallow isn't that?!
[/quote]

Shallow/selfish!

I just had a big falling out with an NT friend about this very issue! She accused me of "over complicating" and making everything "too deep", I called her on being "superficial". She said I have "no fashion sense", I expressed frustration that it's all she thinks about.

Who is right?

The tension really bothers me. I want to like other people, but I have nothing to add when someone talks about their hair for 20 minutes... I spend my time reading Wikipedia, not celebrity tabloids. I relate emotionally over ideas or factual concepts the same way she gets excited about carpet shopping. It's extremely frustrating to feel like we do possess the same emotions, but triggered in a completely different way. Since the world is on the NT side (marketing, advertising, etc..), I always feel like the inferior one... Arrrrgh!

True, but this can be very isolating when you feel like no one else shares your interests. Sometimes I am quite jealous at the way that NTs are able to gush, laugh, joke, and bond over the most mundane and base topics - mostly about the dynamics of other people.

I find I can't participate in that because I'm all too aware that anything I say can logically be applied to me as well, since I'm human too. Some people would say I "think about it too much". But to me, it's not over-thinking, it's just obvious: I can't express "what a *** so and so is..." because if she's capable of it, so am I, and I don't take pleasure in emphatically expressing how wretched a human being I am. Where's the pleasure in that?

I get the impression that NTs just don't take it that far... When they feel something - e.g. "frustration" - they immediately emote it by projecting it on a ready or favourite target - e.g. "My boss is an ****!!!" - to which other NTs, innately seeking to be liked and part of the group, nod and offer sympathetic statements - e.g. "Yeah, what a jerk!" - to which the first NT is soothed by and feels closer to his "allies". I can clearly OBSERVE this process happening, but like Data from Star Trek, I feel unable to genuinely feel anything of it myself.

When I DO *** (and who doesn't?), I usually have a damn good logical reason. Since logic already justifies my reaction, I don't need other people to vindicate my anger. Even when they attempt to sympathize in the NT way, I don't feel any particular emotional soothing or "kick" from their support. Abstractly, it's nice to have, I guess, but I know it's superficial and doesn't really solve anything. An issue is an issue, whether anyone else agrees or not.

The sole exception to this rather neat and tidy reality is interpersonal issues. Here, in the muddy waters of NT land, I am lost and blind. People get upset with me, and I have no idea why. People expect me to do certain things, or behave a certain way, and I don't. People will do something which I don't fully understand, or I feel is "wrong" or "hurtful", and they will have no idea why I'm so upset. It causes trouble. It causes awkwardness. It causes tension, strife, embarrassment, misunderstanding, anger, resentment, hostility, anxiety, and STREEEESSS.  

In times like this, I get why NTs just try to "go with the flow" and minimize all conflict. But it's still not something I can do.

In my completely unscientific opinion, I believe NTs and ASers have different primary drives.

I believe the primary NT drive is EGO - that is, to save face, appear as #1, to be well liked, minimize conflict, and above all, serve the PERSONAL NEEDS of their self. They will unconsciously do what it takes to maintain and increase their social status, even if it means logically being irrational or directly contradicting one's self. Being emotionally inconsistent does not bother an NT, because their reaction always feels congruent to their EGO SELF.

ASers, on the other hand, have a strong drive toward LOGIC - they want things to make sense, be clear, and above all, be consistent with the HIGHER TRUTH of universal logic.  It makes them very "honest" in a way that makes them reaction to NT ego games as "manipulative", "dishonest", and "senseless". They will unconsciously do what it takes to maintain logical TRUTH, even if it means violating certain "social faux pas" like correcting others, being blunt, or expression one's true opinion. Being logically inconsistent bothers an ASer, because - as human beings - their emotions do not always rigidly follow congruently with UNIVERSAL TRUTH.

ASers think like robots, and feel like humans. NTs are human, through and through. No wonder there is conflict!

Personally, I "get" why they like it. It's just not something that "does it" for me. I'll go, I'll dance, I can go through the motions, but it's like a gay man having sex with a woman. Something just feels... off.

My estimation is that ASers do not react strongly to EGO appeals - e.g. all things and activities related to vanity, "personality", "me and other people". I would guess this is because ASers inherently have less of an established sense of individual "self" to feed - e.g. the whole "theory of mind" bit. They are still child-like in their concept of self, and thus largely unaware (and therefore unconcerned with) the world's "toys" for ego (e.g. fancy shoes, makeup, sexy clothes, funky hairstyles, accessories, hot clubs, "who's who" lists, etc).

Naturally, you won't care about your identity until you actually become aware that you have one in relation to other people!

I think ASers can "understand" NTs in the sense of emulation - they will never BE NT, but they can develop a pretty full conceptual model of the NT reality. Their quest is like that of Data - to be LIKE human, if not actually human.

I believe this is a key point. For ASers, many emotions feel like a conscious effort, whereas NTs appear to experience happiness, sadness, anger, etc rather spontaneously. I find I sometimes have to give myself "permission" to feel happy or sad or anger about a situation once I have logically processed it. Often, there is an incredible delay on this - days or weeks or sometimes years - which can lead to a lot of pent-up and unexpressed feelings once they are finally triggered. This is bad bad bad... I believe it's a misnomer to for ASers to think they are in "control" of their emotions any more than NTs just because there is a delay. When I get upset, I'm just as irrational (if not more so) than any NT. It's what you'd call a "freak out".

I agree. It's part of the AS charm and curse to be highly observant of all that goes on around you. I've experienced a lot of discomfort at sometimes baring "uncomfortable truths" I've notice about the people or things around me, without them realizing it. Maybe NTs can do this too and are just better at handling it gracefully. For me, it causes discomfort as I become unsure as to whether it is "socially correct" to mention something or not.

I respect your opinion but I do not agree with it. You bring an interesting subject .
I think for both NTs and Aspies the ego drives the behaviour, only in different ways.
You say NTs minimise conflict. Have you noticed all wars?
You write NTs strive to increase social status. There exist NTs who don't care.
Not all Aspies have the same strong drive towards logic, there are creative Aspies too.

And I say digress from that and revel in what you want to do, the way you do it, instead of submitting to the anarchy of social interactions on a daily basis.

And I say you're a fool, for saying such a terribly oversimplified thing as seen in the bold print.  That's not true and if you insist it is, I will fight you on that until your fingers are numb from typing responses.

I respect your opinion but I do not agree with it. You bring an interesting subject .

Respectful disagreement is appreciated.

I think my terminology might be off. What I mean is that NTs are driven by peer pressure that comes from being very aware of one's self within a group - that is, to look, act, think, speak, and smell a certain way... whereas by definition, those are the spectrum are more in their "own world". Both still have ego needs, but the NT ego needs are more dependent on the concept of 'other people', whereas AS ego needs are more internally focused.

I realize it's not a perfect statement... Pardon my sweeping generalizations I was trying to share some perspective on what might account for the so-called "difference" this thread is discussing. It's not meant to be an airtight statement of absolute truth.

Maybe "avoid conflict" would be a better way of describing what I meant - I was referring to the "social niceties" that NTs use to placate one another.  NTs will laugh at jokes which are not funny, smile at someone they don't like, give compliments which are not genuine, all to avoid "causing waves". Most seem to have a strong need to maintain civility. Most of the time, it works great, allowing many NTs who might not necessarily completely love one another to work and get along... probably an important evolutionary trait for survival in the "pack".

I believe most wars (both personal and national) are caused by either misunderstanding, or as a reaction to aggressive behaviour. While the latter may well be intentional (hostile takeovers, invasions, terrorist acts), the former is almost always unintentional - it's the "he said, she said" stuff. A "war" to me is as much fighting with your GF as it is picking up arms against another country.

ASers are far more likely to simply state something, regardless of whether it violates popular opinion. It might come off as offensive or "insensitive", but the ASer will still say it. NTs, on the other hand, might avoid saying it outloud for the sake of avoiding conflict, only to say it behind someone's back... If the person finds out, that's one good way to start a war!

a) I wouldn't say being a logical person invalidates being a creative one too. If anything, it might make a person more creative by allowing them to "logically" run through extensive permeations of an idea without duplicating thought patterns. Here I meant that ASers seem to have a strong drive towards "truth" (maybe as a way of making sense of a crazy world?), which is naturally by definition a universal concept that logic should theoretically support.

b) Social status is certainly important to ASers - but is it fair to say that most are probably not as concerned with it as NTs? When you live in your own world, you don't really especially need the validation of another one. Nice to have, maybe, but not necessary. Why would you want to be regarded highly by a group you don't especially feel a part of? Other than the logical perks (money, fame, privilege), the sense of "belongingness" would still be missing. I could see an ASer on American Idol for the sake of wanting to win the challenge, but not really for the adulation of the screaming crowd. I'm sure it would please them, but I doubt it would be a primary motivation. Am I wrong about this?

In Amy's "AS Types" video, she mentions there's a "Warhol" type, which craves the center of attention. My response to this would still be that such a type does not feel "belongingness", but rather, experiences a sense of logical validation by being externally recognized as something "special" by an NT mass. There is still a fundamental divide there.

That is certainly the AS way!

Hmm. Sounds like I offended your ego. ?

(That was a joke! Smile!)

By "child-like" ego, I mean that an ASers concept of the world is perhaps more holistic compared to the NTs - they view the world more as an independent floating consciousness, rather than an entity of "one among others" -

May I use an example to explain?

In early development, all children initially view the world and their selves as one. For instance, young babies do not understand that their thumb is "theirs". They will stare at it like it is a foreign object. Only once they "discover" that their thumb is "theirs" do they begin to develop a concept of self in relation to the rest of the world. They then go through a period of "testing" the world, to see what is "theirs" and what is not. Usually, this happens at around age 2, which is why parents refer to it as the "terrible twos".... the child is constantly testing boundaries, usually by being a real nuisance!

Since autism is considered a developmental disorder, it makes sense to me that something in this period might get delayed or modified compared to NT development. Perhaps ASers discover "less" in this period about the boundaries of the world between "me" and "them", and grow up with a concept that is still integrated like the infant's world - hence my comment, "child-like".

To others (especially in early childhood), an ASer might appear more self-absorbed, but it is actually because to the AS perspective, there is less distinction between "me" and "everything else".

I recently spent several years getting into Eastern philosophy, studying meditation in India. I was amazed at the similarities in the notion of "All is One", and the AS worldview (as I understand it). Much of Eastern religion focuses on the concept of "Ego" - specifically, how to "transcend" one's ego to obtain higher realization.

Ken Wilber developed a philosophical concept known as the Pre/Trans fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre/trans_fallacy) - My argument above is essentially that AS, in many ways, is like the "Pre" state of Enlightenment. The fallacy would be thinking that just because ASers may have less "ego baggage" than NTs, they are somehow "better" for it. This is likely not true, even though a so-called "enlightened" being would probably appear more AS-like than NT.

There's a well known website you've no doubt seen that describes what it calls the "origins of autism": http://causeofautism.com/ - It's a very thorough investigation of a possible link between autism and evolution. The most interesting point is that the needs of evolution itself might actually contribute to increasing rates of autism - i.e. the implication is that ASers are actually "good" for humanity at certain points in its history. Could the "Geek Syndrome" really be part of Nature's grand design? Interesting thought...

So bottom-line: I didn't mean "child-like" as an insult... in many ways, it can actually be a very good, exceptional thing.

You are right.

You wrote "AS is like the pre-state of enlightenment". That's the understanding I was looking for in the thread "what is autism". The link between autism/AS and enlightenment. Great!

Did you visit the Osho International Meditation Resort in Pune?

Indeed.. precisely my point!  And sorry for calling you a fool, by the way, that was just an overreaction "in the moment" thing for me..  something I'm very prone to.  They say some Aspies have angry outbursts a lot... I believe I must be one of those.

If I'm going to be honest, I'm going to say I'm still very bothered by such a statement (in bold print) however much truth is to be found there.

I don't think anyone likes to hear they have a "concept of self, still integrated like the infant's world"..  and you can count me as one who really doesn't like to hear that.

That's just my two cents.  If you can either apologize for making the statement (I know that sounds odd, but oh well) or explain it in a different light--by saying that ASers have a "different" view of self/view of world, rather than infant-like--then you and me will get along a lot better.

For right now, I'm depressed from the implications (via your writings)that I'm still infant-like (or child-like) at an advanced age.  To me that's an insult... whenever anyone has said that to me in real life, vocally, it was used as an insult.

I think lonelywolf's comment in the quote is pure crap. I've seen no evidence of this, neither research nor personal experience. I know this isn't my experience. I know there is nothing in the diagnostic criteria that can be used to draw a conclusion like this. I really don't have a clue as to where this kind of thinking comes from.

Ultimatums like this, on the other hand, seem doomed to provoke more conflict in what is otherwise a pretty compelling thread.  I mean no disrespect by this, but this thread strikes a pretty personal note for me, and obviously for a lot of other people here too, and this is maybe not the best place to be defending in this manner against what I assure you is an imagined slight.

Formation of the self-concept requires a theory of [other] minds, as it is impossible to perceive of oneself as an object outside of oneself directly -- it requires interpreting how others interpret oneself (viewing oneself indirectly).  So autism and an underdeveloped self-concept are linked.

That's what I was saying and I agree here.  Personally I find it almost insulting that such a statement would be made about ASers.

I know AS is a developmental disorder, but I don't believe that that concept lends "truth" to the idea that our concept of self is "stuck in the infant years."  I suppose such a thing could be implied, but to go around saying such a thing--especially when a lot of NTs believe everything they hear--is not helpful.

This is very true. Asperger's and PDD-NOS often see themselves as ugly since they think that people are judging them based on their appearance. I have a friend with PDD-NOS who does this.

You know who you are if you're reading this!

In reality it is the lack of outward expression, lack of eye contact, and {in my case} the inconsistent drive/meter of speech and emotion which may actually be the culprits.

Often times people, are simply just people. They don't notice anything at all. If we display worry, it causes those around us to worry.

Well then I would like to "un-say" that statement because I have erred.  Truly, I don't really follow this kind of thinking.  For one thing, I would never refer to people who have a neurodiverse condition as child-like or infantile, nor would I say that some of their concepts (sp. of self) are stuck in an infant's world, etc.

That's just my two cents, and I know people will disagree (as you have, veebles.)  In this case we'll agree to disagree, and I'm certainly fine with doing that.

Yes, you might say that scientific literature/AS research indicates that "infant-like" is accurate in this case, but I choose to interpret that a different way, and that's my right.  After all it is not the researchers who deal with Asperger's every day--it's the people who have the condition.

Why differentiate between Asperger's and PDD-NOS?  That's not an important distinction, and some who have PDD-NOS probably have Asperger's; and vice versa.

It bothers me that people think I'm more PDD-NOS because I'm extremely poor at classic Aspie strengths like Math, Science, Academics (I did horribly in school because I couldn't comprehend the materials, at least not fast enough.)  But then that could also mean 3 things:

1) I could be AS with comorbid ADD
2) I could have a lot of learning problems along with my AS (certain learning disabilities like dyscalculia are common)
3) I could have more profound Executive Dysfunction, than others

The other thing is that folks tell me I don't think logically/practically.  True enough, I seem to be more impulsive/distractible, and common sense (logic/pragmatism) is skipped over.  But I don't see why this would be so uncommon.

My research shows that some with AS may be "more right-brained" or "creative/divergent-thinking," instead of logical/practical.

If I understand things correct, you like me, is a grown up man with a god portion of social experience and history of trying to adapt and fit in. Could it be that some of the original symptoms and criteria for a secure diagnosis is disturbed, manipulated or even created by this "wrong kind of" social stimuli?

I'm more like a dog.  In fact, my best friend thought the matter over and pronounced me a border collie.

Have you read Grandin's Animals in Translation?

silky Wrote:

I'm more like a dog.  In fact, my best friend thought the matter over and pronounced me a border collie.

Have you read Grandin's Animals in Translation?

Yes.  After joking for years about me mentally being more like a dog (I had 23 of them at one point), I did read that book.  Just finished it a couple weeks ago.  What did you think of it?

knoxboxlox Wrote:

silky Wrote:

I'm more like a dog.  In fact, my best friend thought the matter over and pronounced me a border collie.

Have you read Grandin's Animals in Translation?

Yes.  After joking for years about me mentally being more like a dog (I had 23 of them at one point), I did read that book.  Just finished it a couple weeks ago.  What did you think of it?

I thought it was really fascinating.  At first I thought it was going to be a little demoralizing for autistics (since she's saying they're "on the way station between animals and humans" (or something like that)), but it turned out to effectively present the autistic mind as a difference (i.e., something different, not something worse), providing both the benefits and disadvantages compared to the NT mind.  It really helped me understand the autistic perspective a lot better.  The teen I've been mentoring reminded me of my dog sometimes (his reactions and emotions and obviously NOT his intelligence,etc.) but I always had felt guilty for even thinking that.  Now I know seeing some similarities between him and my dog isn't mean/wrong: in fact, by understanding certain aspects of my dog, I understand certain aspects of him better and visa versa

That's a very interesting thought.  Yes I have been aware of the "hidden curriculum" for a while (it really hit me in high school) and my hypersensitivity to criticism comes from a young age; it is possible that the fact that I've tried so hard to "act proper" and "fit in" has taken me away from some of the more stereotypical Aspie traits.

What's interesting is that my older brother (from my observations) has the more obvious traits intact, but he is less aware socially.

Awareness to criticism, and awareness of oneself could be a part of Avoidant Personality as described in DSMIV. The less aware person is simply detached but unlikely to seek assistance because that person is involved in his/ her own interests and doesn't really care about social considerations.

I already know I have Avoidant Personality.  I was told by a therapist, in fact.  But there's a lot of things I have that are not exclusive to Avoidant PD.

Anyhow, Avoidant PD is a comorbid pretty common on the spectrum.  I believe my AS is the cause, because I can't read other people's intentions properly and therefore I think what they're saying is criticism, when it really isn't.

Don't you have awareness of self, awareness of criticism?

I don't see why this would be rare for Asperger's, I have frequently heard that those with AS don't deal well with criticism, and yet have the double standard of being critical themselves (which describes me perfectly.)

Hm.. Me to!
Strange, I thought it came from the viking bloodline in my family.
Anybody else have a lower than average body temperature?

Did you see the pictures of that guy who had his body surgically modified so he'd look more like a lizard?

Yea, even saw a few specials on him on discovery and national geographic, loved the horns.

Mjølner: My mother does too, and as far as where it comes from, I'd never find out, my maternal grandmother's family is like a Heinz 57 variety, you name an ethnicity and it's in there.

Thankyou for pointing this out.
To know whether you feel "as human as an NT", or "feel any different," surely you have to experience being NT before you can draw any comparisons and conclusions?
If you are either NT or AS, how can an aspie or someone neurotypical say they feel different from something they have never experienced?
There is no logic to this.

Do you like the usual and common things that most people do?  ...if not, It could be a noticeable difference.
You don't have to be a Horse to know that you feel different from a Horse? ..am i wrong?
I feel very different from very social people. I don't understand their urge to be with other people as much as possible. Do I have to be hyperscosial  first to be able to feel different?

No I don't like the usual common things that most people do. Nor am I "hypersocial". I am quite the opposite, and I am NT. What does this say about me? It doesn't give me any ability to make a judgement as to whether I feel any 'more human' than someone I have no experience of being.
Concerning the question, "Do you feel as human as an NT". We are talking about comparing human to human. As Noetic said, "I wouldn't know what it's like to feel like anything or anyone other than myself".  To state: "You don't have to be a Horse to know that you feel different from a Horse?" maybe true, but is an irrevelant analogy.
Neigh, I think you are wrong.

AFF Neurodiversity!

I know exactly what you mean - When I was younger, I used to obsessively read fantasy novels, and I especially loved the ones where the protagonist turned out to be from a long forgotten race, with hidden abilities...

*grins* I guess I had an inkling even back then.

The truth is GuessWho I had the same Naive notions that christians were "better people" then the masses, but the case is... they only act like it superficially, most of them are only in it for the reward of eternal life, not because they genuinely love god or jesus, or any such garbage.  If it wasn't for the teaching of forgiveness, most people would never become christian.... I can only imagine how long christianity would have lasted if you had to be totally pure and make few or no mistakes.

Being able to make mistakes lets people excuse themselves and gives people an out to be irresponsible (cheat on their spouse, divorce, whatever you want).

Most Christians today are far and away not very Christian at all, and you should know that better then anyone.

Unfortunately, I think this is all true. Mind you, in Jesus' time, there were similar people - the Pharisees, so religious hypocrisy has been around for a long time.