Would repetitive rituals, preference for sameness, inflexible routines be a common diagnostic feature found in Avoidant Personality Disorder as well?

I see my routines as more reflective as Asperger's because despite being able to handle social situations "fairly well," I really prefer not to attend social events because, as you say, my train of thought begins to get "intruded upon" and all that "NT acting" starts building up and eventually I feel "out of place"... could be this a kind of overstimulation, which is more along the lines of AS than AvPD?

I would like to point out, also, that I am almost certainly NOT Schizoid as I care intensely about what others think about me, desire emotional reassurance, and I do desire friends despite not knowing how to establish relationships and so on.  I have a lot of trouble with social cues and everything I've found to be part of "the hidden curriculum" in my research, and the difficulties were greater in childhood.  I remember a tendency I used to have where I would be disagreeable to other's opinions and let them know about it, bluntly (tactless, sorta) and I would also try to force people into believing the same opinions I had.  I had to "drive my point home" although now with social anxiety, I don't do this much anymore (not in public anyhow, but if you've read my posts on AFF, you know I'm like this.)

To those who know about AvPD and AS, does the above sound more Asperger's with comorbid Avoidance, or just plain Avoidance?

Whew.  This describes me pretty well too.  I was starting to get a little worried, reading for the first time about APD, because I see some of myself in its description.

However, one thing that really stuck out for me is that, with APD, the tendency to avoid social situations stems from an unpleasant or traumatic social experience.  (having been rejected, etc.)  When my first therapist was trying to trace back my agoraphobia to its point of origin, we couldn't find what set it off.  The anxiety I live with just broke through one day, like it had been stuffed down too long, which it had.  I believe that I've always been this way and just controlled and hid it well for years until it became too much.  Agoraphobia (which seems rather like Avoidant Personality Disorder, I wonder if they'll end up being merged into one) didn't adequately explain my anxiety, and didn't address my obsessive nature or my feelings of being different from the other kids.

People with APD don't have the "special interest" symptom, do they?  That would be one way to separate APD and AS.  Batman, I know you and I both have lacked the knowledge of social cues and how to read expressions, and have tried to learn this from observing others.  Would this be uniquely Aspie?  It seems to me, and I may be wrong 'cause I'm very new to this, that those with social phobias stemming from bad social experiences would have this social knowledge that comes easily to NTs.  They would not have the "oops, wrong planet" feeling because they, unlike us, are wired "normally".

Am I making sense?  I want to think more about this...thank you for bringing this up, Batman.

<hugs>

Athie

But Athlynne, you did have unpleasant social experiences.. am I right?  Or at least, they were unpleasant to your mind?

What makes it difficult to untangle my "mental profile" is that at the same time I'm very poor with social comprehension and theory of mind, I also fear being rejected and looking foolish, because it has sometimes happened to me in the past.  I have had lots of unpleasant social experiences... but nothing "traumatic," so the idea that I have a developmental disorder tied to childhood trauma is just plain wrong.  But I mean, social anxiety (fear of looking foolish, etc.) is also very common for people with AS for obvious reasons.  If you're self-aware AS then you almost certainly will have social anxiety.  If you don't know how to talk to people "the right way" and you're self-conscious, then social anxiety is the logical result.  Many people on AFF (so I've found) do have social anxiety.

I believe you can have Avoidant Personality with Asperger's at the same time... somewhere in Donna Williams website she mentions that they do sometimes go together.

Athlynne you may want to look into Schizoid Personality Disorder and Avoidant PD to make sure they don't define you better than AS.  I have ruled out Schizoid but I can't rule out Avoidant... so I think it's comorbid to my Asperger's.  Agree?

I am just curious, since your main reason for lack of social contact appears to be in your own words down to a choice to avoid people, and down to an intense fear of closeness, friendship and intimacy? Regardless of where this fear comes from (social skills problems, trauma etc.), that seems very classic Schizoid social behaviour to me.

That sounds more like paranoid personality to me (suspicion about personal questions and people's motivations etc.) - as far as I'm aware with AvPD it's more a question of pervasive fears of beng judged negatively, being convinced that one's social and conversational skills, sometimes one's looks etc. are "below par" and being terrified of others discovering one's perceived flaws. (The lady I quoted in my first reply is classic there - she is obsessed with wanting an AS diagnosis because she is convinced someone will "discover" her social skill problems and confront her claiming she had AS - since 9 doctors including 4 or so specialists have said she does not have AS, it seems evident that the social skill problems are all in her head)

You know, I was going to use my friend back home who is diagnosed with Borderline PD but who seems half-Borderline (she definitely has the "I hate you/don't leave me" thing and is constantly manipulating people and situations for drama etc.) and half-AvPD, as an example of my point.... but thinking about it, yes you're right... Darnit!

She does indeed appear "almost" paranoid and is very very guarded and can be abrupt and "rude" as soon as someone gets "personal". ("They must want something, they must suspect something, why else would they ask?" etc.)

She is generally very guarded, not in the same way that I know I sometimes *appear* to be (because it often doesn't cross my mind to talk about certain things unless something sets me off/triggers a memory - it doesn't always seem obvious to me that others do not already know what I know, and it is too frustrating to communicate what is necessary as I tend to "have" to convey the full picture which quickly becomes fragmented and derails).

More that she, while she is obsessed with gathering dirt on other people, especially her neighbours whom she despises (it often seems like she is trying to deal with her own low self esteem by teaching herself that others are much worse - not a bad strategy if she didn't constantly start actual feuds with them!), seems to believe everyone else also seeks out dirt on her and thus is trying to protect herself from such observations by keeping her personality tightly wrapped up and hidden.

I used to wonder if she might have AS, especially when she told me about how she hated public transport. I thought maybe it is touch sensitivity and not liking sudden touch and so on (few things make me jump - and want to hit out! - more than someone occasionally gently touching my leg), but when she is out with her friends she has no such problems.

She will make a huge drama about how she "can't sit next to a stranger" on the train,

The way she dislikes closeness to people is different to the way I dislike touch too (cuddles and greetings with relatives used to be horrible for me sensory-wise especially the smell of their saliva, and even the smoothest facial hair felt like needles, although thankfully it is now only some forms of soft touch that offend my senses - I do enjoy firm hugs though, and nowadays hate polite kisses mainly because I never read the signals right and end up doing one too few or too many or hit the other person on the nose with my face etc.).

She *claims* to dislike touch and closeness but with people like myself, who frankly are too unaware of her small dramas, she is spontaneous and does not at all react with the usual "Oh no you can't touch me!" spiel.

I remember the utterly bemused look on our mutual friend's (she being my first real permanent friend I made, all because I "needed" someone to guide me at our tap dance teacher's birthday party - see below Re: "using" people) face after I had said my goodbyes to my BPD friend.

"She HUGS you?!"

You see, apparently said friend decided once upon a time (years after we first met I might add!) decided that she disliked people touching her, and me being one of the few friends she has who do not "read" her body language and her psychological cues, I had absolutely no idea!

I make a point of hugging everyone goodbye when I see them the last time before I go back to the UK, and in a way I guess she sensed that I don't "buy" (not even register!) her rejecting, avoidant facade and reacted naturally just as she probably would all the time, if it wasn't for her anxieties.

Not really a fear of social interaction as such, although that was originally part of one of those psychobabble theories that tried to explain autism as just "being afraid to get close" etc.

But there are newer theories and ramblings out and about (and in books) about "exposure anxiety" (Donna Williams coined that phrase and while some of the neurobiological conclusions are very illogical, it describes what I experience very well), about reactions that do not at all relate to conscious "fears of" (failure, embarrassment etc.) but about an inability to function while you are aware of your actions.

Being 'exposed' (confronted, scrutinised, watched) makes you more aware of what you are doing at the time, and this seems to often stop people from completing the action. (George in the book "Sam and George" is practically anorexic because he cannot make himself eat "for himself" - his mother has to talk aloud about how the food she is making is "for Sam" and then leave it lying unattended, with nobody else paying attention to George. Then he can connect and make the movements necessary to nibble at the food a bit)

For me even just the presence of someone whom I know well enough to register them as "a person", that takes up my focus and I often *cannot* pull my focus from "being with that person" towards an action I am supposed to perform, I cannot divide my focus.

Thankfully precious few people are "real people" in my memory, in the sense that I can feel close enough with them that I can fully hold that person in my attention and awareness though...

That was definitely something that I have experienced since long before I was really aware of people other than perhaps my parents, and judgement or embarrassment only occasionally came into it, in my late teens.

Me too... although I do sometimes like to go places as long as someone I know well is with me the first time - if it is a social event I often have been guilty of "using" people (although to be honest most of my few friendships developed from this) as a go-between that others would talk to, because I eventually realised that I seemed unable to think or react fast enough in most such situations to be able to respond without shutting down.

If it is something I want to do (and I mean I want to be very much consciously aware of what is going on and I want to remember it) then I almost *need* to do it on my own, because unless an impulse catches me unawares, it feels almost as if the other person's presence is physically pulling my focus towards them (literally it feels like something is pulling strings on my upper right back), causing me to lose all connection to what I actually want or intend to do.

The lady who diagnosed me (after referral by a neurologist who diagnosed "an Asperger like syndrome" - he had an odd way with words) put this in my report, most of it was more from her experience than from what I wrote to her though (I sent her a few dozen pages of different thoughts and memories, plus the document I'd originally sent the neurologist):

(The bit I object to is that she refers to "emotions" - what she seems to label as such is not the same was what I attach value, meaning and emotion to. It's more the subject/object of my focus than "emotions" that I can't 'connect with' when expected to instantly talk about them)

I am too, although I do have attentional/memory issues as well - ADD meds do work for me because they help me block out things and stabilise my perceptions but the only ADD people I "resonate with" are ones, usually male and diagnosed past the age of Thirty, who also have an ASD.

Btw, it is more and more acknowledged that those who have "pure" autism without any comorbids, especially without ones that cause particular behavioural issues such as aggression, are least likely to be diagnosed and end up included in research and case studies.

Spit roast in case anyone is wondering... Damnit how do I stop the cartoon chicken in my head doing "breakdance" in a pool of spittle now?

Have you considered the possibility that Asperger's may be involved, instead of the thousand other possibilities you suggest?  Have you considered the possibility that I looked into Schizoid on my own and figured out it doesn't fit me?

You're really starting to aggravate me and about 2-3 more "disagreement" posts from yours you will be history on my computer screen as the Ignore button will be utilized, so take your distrusting nature and use it to help others realize they have no place on AFF, just like you are doing with me.

I'll talk to you on the combined type Tourette's/rapid cycling bipolar forum, once I find it.

Uh, yes that's why I asked. I was wondering why you mentioned Schizotypal did fit you but decided Schizoid didn't suit you.

I was, as I stated clearly, curious. I'm curious and want to know how many things work, I'm sorry if that's a crime in your eyes.

Yes, I did...but this began just after the social anxiety began.  The anxiety caused the bad social experiences, not the other way around.

Schizoid?  Oh, hell.  Let's see.  Apparently those with schizoid disorder have few acitivities that give them pleasure.  That doesn't work.  I have a close relationship with my sister, and I'm not always cold.  Hermit-like, yes.

gemtnt said:

1.  Yes, sometimes.
2.  Big yes!
3.  Echolalia, yes, a little, when stressed.  My voice also tends to be flat, and stays around the same volume.

<hugs>

Athie

Awww, it will be all right, tis just a spirited debate.  

*my Orca hugs everyone with her fins*

Ah, I wasn't trying to say it was a crime. It's just that I can see that people are getting confused when all these other conditions are being brought into the equation.

The thing with me, though, is that I can't fix/take anything apart for my life, and I am absolutely horrible at Math (despite trying hard at it for a while, because I was interested in programming.)  I would have gone further with computer programming if I only had the Math skills, but I learned through experimentation that "I just didn't have it."

So what makes my case more confusing is that I am STRICTLY in the less-typical, creative subtype of AS (from my research, this is the type that very often includes AD/HD, and sometimes Bipolar), and I really don't have any practical/pragmatic abilities (unless utilized in an extreme rote fashion, every day, otherwise I "forget" how to do it) at all.

As far as being logical, I'm not sure about that; however I do know that I'm very analytical.  The one official IQ test I took, the test giver said I was "an analytical thinker."  I've read that Aspies are logical quite often, but a few sources I've found online say that some of us are excellent analytical thinkers.

Hmm, I forgot about that echolalia thing.  I actually do this very frequently, moreso when younger but still, I love to repeat things that others say.  I like to imitate, as well, especially when the person has an unusual voice.  I've always been good at mimicry and sometimes I also imitate others behavior, for the hell of it.

About voice being flat, I don't think that really applies to me; but I do seem to have a problem regulating the volume of my voice, it seems to be inconsistent and I'm not always aware of it (people have to tell me.)

Athlynne, I don't think I'm Schizoid either.  I was DXed with Dysthymia in the past but that was when I was going through depression in adolescence, oddly enough at the same time I was extremely paranoid and I believe it was the paranoia that led to my "breakdown" more than anything else.

I'm still a paranoid person.  So I say more Schizotypal than Schizoid.  For I have had tendencies for "magical thinking" in the past (some of them enough to be worrisome) and of course intense fascination with the Occult, unexplained phenomena, and so on.

Very "right brained" would mean more a "feeling" or "creative" kind of person, than a logical/organized type?  If so, maybe that helps to define my comorbid Avoidant PD.  I'm not very pragmatic/logical.

Poor social skills in group settings is what I have; with individuals I'm comfortable with (only specific people tho), I'm fine.  I don't know about sensory issues at the age of 25, although I am noise-sensitive and only wear specific clothing.  Literal thinking used to be heavy, now I'm a little better.

Is this correct, are those early memories an Asperger trait? I have very early memories.

This thread has confused me, like some of you. Until now I see myself as probably borderline Aspie.

I have 1 or 2 special interests. I tend to behave like a hermit. My reasons to avoid social contact are, in the right order: fear, lack of interest, lack of social skills.

People who are visual thinkers (rather than verbal ones), as well as autistic people, who often tend to have strong sensory memories (as opposed to remembering abstractions of those sensory impressions), usually have memories going back to well before they could speak.

Most NTs on the other hand tend to remember only from an age where their thinking had become verbal (usually when they learned to talk).

In fact there is a huge overlap with NVLD and that usually brings with it specific LDs in maths as well.

(Italics are mine)
I read it like this: If – because of AS – you are experiencing "problems of social performance" and therefore "personal distress" you could develop APD in consequence.
The question for me is whether the "hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism" applies to verbal and nonverbal clues of your vis-a-vis – I'd never get nonverbal clues unless hit in the face .
For "habitual exaggeration of the potential dangers" you would need some Theory of Mind, I guess.

So then I would assume NVLD often includes problems with sequencing?  Or is that more Dyspraxia?

I had some "strange" problems with Math.  If I was taught something in the same day and learned it properly, it seemed like I "got it" and the person teaching me was convinced I was actually pretty smart.

But then 1-2 days later I would forget everything I learned, almost as if I hadn't been taught the lesson in the first place.  In such a case, if I had to apply the specific material, I'd have to find a way to re-trigger it in my mind (associatively) or I would have no chance of being correct.

I must have Theory of Mind, then.

What now?

I guess that means that your "case" cannot be decided by just looking at the above-mentioned symptom.

What about "hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism". If (e. g. in a meeting) someone (your boss) states something truly stupid, do you (a.) nod approvingly or do you (b.) tell him/her the truth?
[a. could mean NT, APD or shy Aspie, b. would mean Aspie – or someone who really wants to get the bosses position by "turning him/her over"]

It's definitely A.  I tend to be extra careful around bosses.  In general I usually suppress what I really think.  I do worry about what others think of me, there's no doubt.  

I really want to make all social interaction "smooth" and "painless" and "conflict-free."  To some degree acting formally (I tend to have a very restrained, formal approach to things) allows me to achieve this, and I'm bothered when I have to "break character" if someone with a narcissistic/sarcastic personality comes along.  Those types of people are very "abstract" in their behavior and I can't really gauge what's going on, what they really mean (social subtext), etc.

  We'll get along great, then.

<hugs>

Athie
who should go to bed, probably

Do you have those healing magicks ready for me, yet?

That's, um, interesting...

That's, um, interesting...

You don't believe me!  I remember labelling walking as not interesting when I tried to but couldn't yet. Really!

Non-Verbal Learning Disability (or Disorder)

Noetic Wrote:

That's, um, interesting...

You don't believe me!  

I do believe you!

It's been done.  Unfortunately, the effectiveness of such a healing depends heavily on the positive atttitude of the person being healed, and it's hard to keep a positive attitude when you need healing.  Still, it should make some difference.

<hugs>

Athie

Ah, thanks for that. I get confused with some of these abbreviations.

I have a memory of two cribs, side by side, in a dimly lit hallway. My mom couldn't believe I could remember this, she wondered if she had told me about it. She said I was right, as babies, my sister and I had cribs by eachother, in a small room. I was a bit off about the hallway, but it was a memory from when I was a baby.

NVLD=NonVerbal Learning Disability

it is a really confusing name for a disability in which the person has difficulty with nonverbal communication such as body language, spatial skills, and math.  

People with this label are verbal, but they do have difficulty with language.  They might not easily understand jokes and figurative language.  People tend to be labeled NVLD in late middle school or high school because the complex language difficulties are more apparent then.

The feature that really differintiates it from ADD is the spatial piece.  As a label, it became very popular in the very late 90sand early mulinium.  

Now there is some talk that women who may actually have AS were given this label or ADD instead.

Janet

Maybe the time of onset...?

"The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, pp. 664-665) describes Avoidant Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, and hypersensitivity to negative evaluation, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following...(http://www.ptypes.com/avoidantpd.html)"

I have all these difficulties, but isn't this pretty much the same as AS, anyway..?  Wouldn't most people with AS have at least a few traits of NVLD...?

Seems less like a comorbid and more a part of AS, to me.

I fit all criteria for Avoidant PD.  But I've read that it can occur with Asperger's as a comorbid; in other words, you can have both conditions.

ADD, NLVD, and AS are confusing, and only become more confusing the more you know.

The distinguishing feature that causes some people to believe that NLVD is not spectrum is the poor math abilities.  

However, as I have gotten to know people on this forum, I have found out that some aspies do not have good math skills.

ADDers tend to immature, but do not struggle so much with social communication

I was evaluated in 1999 for NLVD.  The psych said that my spatial skills were higher than in NLVD and said I had ADD instead.  She did not adress my social-pragmatic concerns at all (I guess it didn't fit in neatly enough).

More recently, people are looking at how AS varies b/t genders and are rethinking the the labels of ADD and NLVD, especially in women.

Really?  Just some Aspies?

It perhaps doesn't speak well of your AS knowledge for me to find out you "never knew" some Aspies are poor at Math, until you came on this forum.

I am disappointed.  Ever since I came to AFF, I have been preaching the good word:  this stereotype is far, FAR from universal in terms of Asperger's.  It needs to stop.

I have learned so very much on this forum.  

I personnally was told that I couldn't aspie (from PhD level "Professionals" with years of experience in the field) b/c I have poor math skills and that is a distinguishing aspect of AS & ASD.  And spatial skills too good for NLD

I was therefore given the label, ADD, despite my life-long difficulty with understanding anything socially - but at least I had my focused interests to get me through the rough times!!

But I am done with labels anyhoo.  

Just last night I was reading that they are going to start subdividing ASD into sub groups, because researchers cannot draw any conclusions as it is now.

Autism Spectrum Quarerly (Spring 2008)
"Autism Subtypes: A key to understanding a purplexing spectrum (Lars Perner, PhD)"

the technology is upon us when we could categorize people by
genetic make up (10 - `15 genes appear to be associated with autism)
enzyme, etc activity or levels
brain scans
behavioral subtypes (which the author feels may hold the greatest promise)

The author would favor subtyping in hopes of being able to efficiently figure out which treatments would likely be most effective.

Dr. Perner was labeled AS at the age of 31

I would be ashamed to be associated with professionals who believe stereotypes like that are actually part of the AS/ASD criteria.

For the record, both my Math skills and spatial skills are very poor.  What does this suggest to you..?

You have to remember that until recently, the Aspergers and Autism diagnosis was much narrower and typically only included the savants and a few others. Therefore, many of these people were educated with this definition and therefore still use it.

That's what I was thinking.. perhaps I should have included that in my last comment..  

Yeah, it does seem that some of the stereotypes are loosening up a bit, now, for a broader and more inclusive grasp of ASD...  but still, it's not quite enough to satisfy me.  I'm one of the biggest opponents to the "Math skills" stereotype, and what's more, even the "genius IQ" stereotype bothers the hell out of me.

IMHO, it's very likely there's a lot of folks with AS out there who have average intelligence, like me, it's just that they may not be as noticeable because they don't have the typical academic/scientific interests.  I have no interest/skill in either area, my only interests are in art/creativity and entertainment media, and even then I'm far from being any kind of "gifted specialist."  Far from it, in my honest assessment.

I do seem to have some "idiosyncratic" ability in some narrow categories of art, but it is not orthodox and basically goes against how art is taught.  I would not call myself gifted in art because I have not been able to learn spatial representation and perspective--these things are exceedingly difficult for me.  So, realistically, I don't think you could call me gifted in art.

Your boasting is inconsiderate to me.  I am 26 and art is one of my few gifts, and you are telling me your 3 year old son could draw with 3 dimensions--and I still cannot.

I have serious deficits in both Math and spatial skills and I am not good at anything.  Except art perhaps, but apparently your son is a hundred times better than me.

Thank you for mentioning my name alongside tenaciouscj with unorthodox skills... that was nice of you (sarcasm)

I'm not gifted when a 3 year old is able to learn spatial skills, and I am 26 and still unable to learn it.

Your positivity with me is heretofore contradicted by honestjohn's description.

I am good for nothing.  I am defective.  I am s**t.

That sounds quite like my spread of abilities... I am bad at many areas of math, and my short-term (working) memory is crap; occasionally when I am driving somewhere I will forget where I am supposed to be going and drive back home. I have very good visuo-spatial abilities, though, which I've read is unusual for Asperger's (of which I have a semi-official diagnosis) and Nonverbal Learning Disorder (fully-officially diagnosed). Does your son also have strong verbal/reading abilities? We seem to be very much alike based on what I've read... I tend to be rather quiet rather than talkative, though.

Official testing I did back in October proved that my full scale IQ was completely irrelevant to anything, as is the case with many (dare I say most) Aspies due to the extremely uneven spread of abilities. My IQ ranges from 78 (borderline retarded) to 176 (genius-level), based on the specific subject that is being tested. My full scale IQ was within the high-normal range, but it is still rather common for me to have times when I feel very unintelligent and other times when I feel "gifted". Sometimes they happen simultaneously.

Batman, I feel this is a rather unfair thing to say to honestjohn.
  I know you are feeling jealous, but this boy's talent really has nothing to do with you.
You can both be artists, actually.

I do have intense obsessions, but not to the extent that most Aspies have them.  In fact it seems a lot of people know more about my interests than I do--my method of retaining information is "broken" and not very effective.  Basically I retain "random information" and cannot learn very deeply into any topic, because of learning problems.

However, I do have lots of routines and rituals--shouldn't this be more AS than NVLD?

I do not stim very much, however.

Batman, one way or another you need to get yourself IQ tested again. Basing your whole self opinion on the result of a single test is arrant foolishness and is tragically limiting your life.