The same reason why this is a different one
http://afroamhistory.about.com/od/people/

The same reason why this is a different one
http://afroamhistory.about.com/od/people/[/quote]

They are not the same.  For one thing the list of scientists and inventors is nowhere near as long on the African American history page.  The white history page really does come from a supremacist group and makes it seem that the white race is superior.  Not so with the AM page.

I'm actually starting to see what you are getting at though.  If Lili had listed more entertainers, artists and other people who've accomlished things besides becoming a famous genius, I would have less problems with it.    

Why doesn't Lili include George Washington Carver in her list? I saw a show on The History Channel about him and he seemed very Aspie to me.  I shouldn't encourage her but this is another reason I don't like her list, only white people.

Well thats the thing about it, if you don't accomplish something amazing, you rarely end up in the history books. There are probably plenty of third rate aspies, but you don't see anyone writing books about them. I agree that there is a line that should not be crossed between Aspergian Pride and Aspergian Bigotry, but that line is difficult to define, and right now I feel Pride has more place than humility. A common comparison is drawn between the different movements of Martin Luther King and Malcom X. Yes X crossed the line in most peoples definition, but it was a time when it was more important to achieve goals then to show humility. The difference is that the white list is an attempt to reinforce an immoral establishment, while the black and aspie list is an attempt to tear down that same immoral establishment.

What do you think of the people on this page? Aspies?

http://www.karakuri.info/master/index.html

I think sometimes it's more important to get some respect than to aim for popularity. Will mass popularity ever be a realistic goal for autistics as a group? I have doubts. I also think there are times when building "self-esteem" within one's own group is more important than promoting one's status with other groups in the wider community. (I hate that that pop psychology word "self-esteem", but I couldn't think of a more applicable word.)

Maybe I need to explain explicitly what the two lists in this thread are and are meant to mean. Firstly, both lists are fully based on what other people have either written or said. They are not my own personal opinions about who may or may not be an aspie. In another thread I have a list that is more influenced by my own opinions. The lists here are either based upon self-diagnosis reported in the media, or self-reports of diagnosis reported in the media, or are based on books written and published by book publishers thought to have some reputation, and most of these books are written by authors who are generally recognized as being appropriately qualified to diagnose autism and autistic spectrum conditions. Therefore, no one can say that these lists are concoctions of autistic rights extremists created to paint a false picture of autism/AS as more valuable or less pathological than it really is. While I did choose the media products that I drew the lists from, (I don't recall deliberately ignoring any reasonably credible sources) I did not choose which names I drew from the books, with one exception. I did leave out one famous person identified in one of the books who was given an unconventional and unrecognized autistic diagnosis, because the diagnostic category itself was most contentious and the person was someone who I personally wouldn't be proud to be associated with. I was indeed disappointed to find few females and I don't think any non-caucasians in the lists, but there were a few gays and bisexual males (and how would you be being gay as well as aspie? - must be a challenging life).

The shorter list can be seen as an elite sample drawn from the larger list. I just thought such a list could be more readable by virtue of being briefer (who has time to read much these days?) and the elite level of the awards and honours given to the people on that list are so dazzling that I think it should give pause for thought to any NT twit who thinks that aspie kids can never amount to much because of their autism. I actually had one particular NT twit in mind when I started those lists. There's nothing like a grudge for motivation! :lol:

I think it's a good thing to be able to look at a list of people who were most likely autistic to some degree, but who were almost certainly never given any "therapy" or "early intervention" with the aim of curing or minimizing their autism, who still accomplished great fame and achievment on their merits alone. No one can say of the people in these lists "He couldn't have achieved so much without his meds." or "He couldn't have achieved so much without the ABA early intervention." or "She's really only famous because she makes a big deal of her autism." or "He couldn't have got that award on a level playing field."

With regard to the accusations that I am an autistic supremacist (and haven't I already dealt with this stuff before?) I'm happy to admit that I think that autistics in general, all things being equal, have an edge over NTs with regard to originality and systemizing ability. I also have a strong suspicion that autism is somehow linked to general intellectual giftedness, based on much anecdotal evidence, personal experience, one small study's findings, and a scientific theory about anomalous cerebral dominance which links the two characteristics. I'm also happy to admit that NTs have the edge with regard to social stuff and activities requiring teamwork, including sport and many workplace situations. How fair is that?

If anyone can spot similar errors or omissions with these lists, please let me know.

My cousin and I used to put on puppet shows all the time at family gatherings. Even if we didn't have real puppets, we'd make some out of paper, or use stuffed animals, or even just objects and figureines.

Shockley was hated because his beliefs were considered racist.  He was a firm believer in pseudo scientific theories such as the Bell Curve and the intellectual inferiority of black people.  Of course this is no denial on my part that he was an Aspie.

Albert Einstein and Bill Gates didn't need any schooling to accomplish what they did.  Sometimes I think formal education is worthless for Aspies.  Some of us can earn all sorts of university degrees yet get nowhere in life.  Others like Gates can drop out of college and become the richest man in the world.

While that is true, unless you have Bill Gates confidence and aggressiveness, having the right training on your resume opens the door.  If schooling doesn't go well for my son, I won't tie him to it.  But I'm not going to work on the assumption that he can skip it, either.  Bill Gates tells others to finish college ... unless a once in a lifetime opportunity is knocking, like it was for him.  Start out on the assumption you can skip the degree, and you start out with a huge and very real handicap.  Reality.  It's pretty difficult to live life without ever accepting reality.

I'm one of the many aspies who have a degree and have no hope of having anything resembling a career, despite years of giving the career caper my best efforts. Whenever I get a job in some government department or company my health starts to fail due to the inescapable stress of having to interact with people for hours in a day, and usually I end up being excluded or bullied by work colleagues or supervisors. I hate having to pretend being a neurotypical in job interviews, having to perform body language that I feel is ridiculous, trying to hide the fact that I'm not "outgoing" or "extroverted". And if you met me in the street I doubt that you'd think I was autistic at all, I regard myself as close to neurotypical. This is reality.

Vespers wrote

I think if someone has an autistic close blood relative that's a pretty good reason to suspect that someone who has a lot of autistic eccentricities is the real thing themselves. If these facts about Strom are all correct I'd be happy to call this guy an aspie (but not happy to be associated with a neo-nazi nutbar).

I believe there may be an ugly minority in aspiedom, and their mindset is an extreme of male stereotype psychology. These people appear to be afraid of or angered by the existence of people who are different to themselves (racists, homophobes, religious sectarian hate merchants, mysogynists), possibly because they are afraid of anything that they know they don't fully understand, and social change makes them feel uneasy too, because anything new is something that they have not yet got their mind around. I think they have a feeling that things or people that they don't fully understand cannot be trusted. I think they are a very anxious bunch, with a lot of bitterness, due to bad life experiences. I think these people want more than anything else to control their lives and their environment, but find they are powerless due to economic disadvantage or lack of social climbing skills, causing huge frustration.

It seems likely that the original nazis had some aspies high up in their ranks, and William Shockley may also be a variation of this mindset, I'm not sure. I have always thought Australia's most famous neo-nazi, Jack van Tongeren, was of a type that I felt an odd familiarity with. He is thought to have post traumatic stress disorder due to being very jumpy and a Vietnam veteran. Jack has buggerall facial expression and very little variation in the tone of voice. I can't say I've noticed much body language either. I always thought when I saw him on TV "Why don't his lips move when he speaks? - he would make a great ventriloquist". There must have been some Jewish conspiracy to steal Jack's body language.

I agree with your point(s).  I was basically posting an example, but it is highly oversimplified.

Both my husband and I are currently self-employed.  My husband has more Aspie traits than I do, but neither of us are probably officially Aspies; we just had enough genes to create an Aspie child.  Still, we both ended up wanting to do things our own way after years of paying our dues in the employment world.

Even for me working for others was a rough road.  I got very good at it, but I would sometimes refer to it as learning to act a part.  When I started mentoring younger associates, I spent a lot of time teaching them how to play the game.  I'm not sure anyone feels some of the roles you are required to play in the business world are "real."

But, neither my husband nor I could have the businesses we run now if we had NOT spent those years working for others.  We built the contacts we currently feed off, and we learned the technical skills schools just can't teach you.

In the end, it takes a huge combination of things to have a successful work life.

If my child comes up with a marketable invention without ever having to work in a larger company, I can help him take it further.  I do know about starting a business and making it successful.  But, I would prefer he learn at the hands of others first ... sigh, this is part of the wide world of "we'll have to see when we get there."

I work a few days a week with a business that hired a young man who I am sure is Aspie.  He was actually an extremely talented employee.  The problem was, he didn't like the job.  The owner of the business was really sad to see the young man leave; and the young man has no idea what he'll do next.  I know he'll never interview well, but he'll always get one hell of a sterling reference from his former employer.  If he ever figures out what he wants to do.

OK, enough rambling without solving anything ... just, yes, I see the issues.  But sometimes you have to choose a road regardless of the fact that all of them look bumpy.

So do I.  Everything I've read and seen about Himmler says to me that he was an aspie.  He was described as pedantic with a montone voice.  In pictures he is often shown with a weird expression on his face.

The firewall where I work doesn't allow the streaming video to work so I didn't see the video.  I could download the file but it's quite large.  I suppose you could be right about Einstein.  It's just that I've never heard the words "extramarital affairs" being associated with AS males.

Epilepsy is associated with neurological cell loss in the amygdala, as is autism. Perhaps that's why he exhibited similar behaviours?

Did anyone see the Hallmark version of "Hans Christian Anderson"? Sure it was a semi-fictional biography, but the actor playing Anderson was SO portraying an Aspie character.

They are not the same.  For one thing the list of scientists and inventors is nowhere near as long on the African American history page.  The white history page really does come from a supremacist group and makes it seem that the white race is superior.  Not so with the AM page.

I'm actually starting to see what you are getting at though.  If Lili had listed more entertainers, artists and other people who've accomlished things besides becoming a famous genius, I would have less problems with it.    

Why doesn't Lili include George Washington Carver in her list? I saw a show on The History Channel about him and he seemed very Aspie to me.  I shouldn't encourage her but this is another reason I don't like her list, only white people.
[/quote]

So whenever there's a black history page, it's in good taste, but whenever there's a white history page, it's automatically considered to be supremacist?

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.  Either both sites are supremacist, or neither site is supremacist.

Yup. In my opinion, if you're going to go around making lists, why not include everyone on the same page?

Sorry, but Aspies are usually not psychopathic.  I think you are off-base.

Hmm, well I am right handed.. what would this say about me?

I think you are right, I believe I was saying "psychopathic" because he seems to "skip over" the entire concept of concern for innocent people, indeed anyone who genuinely had respect for life and especially innocent life, would not be able to do the things Osama has done.

But perhaps Muslim fundamentalism allows you to skip over this natural concern in specific cases where a perceived enemy is concerned.

I take back my initial thought.  I do definitely believe that he would be a case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, or at least a highly narcissistic individual.  He seems to be full of grandeur, and delights in thinking that he's a great leader for his people, etc.

Oh you'd be surprised...

I hope I don't seem..difficult?..in noting that your prose style is...almost English? In fact "Cambridge English"?

I believe he would be, yes.

An example of AS with strong divergent thinking ability, certainly going against the grain that says "we lack imagination."  Nothing could be further from the truth when talking about a comic genius such as Kaufman.

I hadn't seen the entire list so I didn't know about Andy Kaufman being there. Bruce Chatwin was another one that I had thought of that I now found in your list. What about Richard Brautigan 1935-1984? Or Peter Sellers?

AFAIK Peter Sellers has only been speculated to have a personality disorder.  I saw a movie about him and he looks like a narcissist more than anything else.

I was always the "creative one."  I had an unusual/offbeat sense of humor since I was little, in that I would notice peculiar things that others wouldn't.  I think I might be Nicholls-type Asperger's, as my whole "persona" revolves around creativity and art, without the slightest bit of science/math components.  I don't have the cognitive abilities needed in those areas...  I am "under-able" as you say in Math, in fact very under-able (that is, if we compare my Math skills to the Aspie-Math stereotype.)

That might be something to explore, a little.

I believe if you took away my creativity/divergent thinking ability (which AFAIK is well above average) and replaced it with strong math/logic ability, I bet somebody from high school might have detected Asperger's (as I did have a lot of social difficulties then, as always) and I might actually have a diagnosis by now.

Still, the Math stereotype remains, and makes those who have creative ability well above math ability seem just like "odd artist types" rather than Aspie.  And that pisses me off.

To me the interesting thing about Peter Sellers was that he was never completely comfortable out of character. (There's that famous story about his interview with Michael Parkinson and how he would only agree to be interviewed if he could come in the persona of a German soldier...)

That is interesting, but all my readings about him have mentioned a strong likelihood that he had a personality disorder...

If you have any reputable links that discuss Sellers and the possibility of Asperger's, I'd like to read them.

And by the way I am of the opinion that mimicry, or taking on the mannerisms of another character, is certainly something that an Aspie might be good at.  I can't act for beans, but I am very good at mimicry and imitating others.

Well, I don't. And I don't really think he was aspie. I just think he was a very interesting character.

I see a personality disorder in him, more than anything else.

I'm going to agree here, he used very few characters in his stories (I have read many of his short stories) and those he used lacked any kind of expressive range.  In fact it seems like he used the same character over and over for many of them, and often the character wasn't given a name.

He was a very solitary, peculiar fellow who much preferred letters for communication than being around people themselves.  Much like me...  

You're right about Jesus Christ, I have read from a couple reputable sources that he was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome when he hit adolescence.

I thought this was funny in an absurdist kind of way.

You guys don't agree?  Come on, give me some slack

Curious... Who's to know, I suppose?

Seriously, though.

Already mentioned this once or twice (ages ago) but I heard somewhere about some theory that the Pharaoh Akhenaten may have been autistic.

Now every genius in their respective field has Asperger's.  This is something that starts to bring out the elusive "angry skeptic" side I have.

Come on folks, let's restrict the posthumous Asperger's speculation unless there has been a published, reputable source written on the individual in mind, which reputably discusses the possibility of said individual having Asperger's/ASD, and so on.

Right now, for instance, I think James Joyce is a strong case of posthumous Asperger's--if only because a book was written by a scholar on the subject.  This makes it more official, despite the fact that you can't diagnose someone who's passed on to the other side.

We can speculate about other "greats" all we want, but indeed if we start speculating about any random "great intellectual" having Asperger's simply because they were solitary/reclusive/eccentric or all three at once, then that puts a bit too much glamor on the Asperger's label and is not in keeping with the pervasive developmental disorder aspects which are probably familiar to many, if not most, Aspies.

This "every solitary genius had Asperger's" just does not pay dividends to those of us who struggle with AS but don't match the incredible genius stereotype.

I am not a troublemaker and I don't have communication or cognitive disabilities.  My Asperger's is a self-diagnosis and I have never had, in the entire span of my life, even one person tell me I have the disabilities you speak of or suggest I may have thereof.

If anyone's a troublemaker with communicative disabilities it might be you, I don't know how many times in the other thread people said they were deeply offended by you "brushing off" Astrology as something that mentally ill people explore.

You accuse others of being troublemakers and lacking diplomatism.. how about you look at you look in the bloody mirror, mate?

Edit button...

I don't believe in any of the sayings above.  If it came off that way, then I apologize and in this case I hope you take back your statement that I have "cognitive/communication disabilities" because I don't, and that's a hurtful statement directed at me without considering that I take criticism literally, too often.

I never said it was a conspiracy at all, but I feel that there's a glamorous aspect of Asperger's hanging around public perception, which is more-or-less tied to the knowledge that many great people have had a form of Asperger's, or are at least highly speculative.

I should clarify that there's nothing wrong with posthumous diagnosis, it's just that to my mind, it seems to be getting a bit "wanton".. but that's if you ask me, and I could certainly be wrong.

That's what I was getting at, or trying to get at...

Thanks for putting it into the words I was looking for, but could not find.

I thought it was a known fact that Alexander the Great was gay.

Well the ancient greeks[not to mention the persians before them]sure as hell knew about it! WHAT on earth makes you think that homosexuality is a new concept?

Ahh, the pot calling the kettle black ;-)
I hope you realize that male Bonobo's[a chimpanzee species closely related to humans] have been observed **** each others asses. So clearly what we call "homosexual" behaviour has been around for a looooong time; even if there wasnt a word for it. So look here bub, you think you're right and I'm wrong why dont you cite your sources!.

STOP HIJACKING THE THREAD

I never defensively dismissed it, it's just that I found the name "Jesus Christ" on a list of possible Aspies as a tad bit ludicrous.  I suppose other people will think it fascinating and worthy of exploring, however *I* felt it was ridiculous.  Personally.

Speculation will be harmless and I have no problems with that... but... Jesus H. Christ...

Do you live in New Britain?

What if he's not much of a book-reader?

(No intentional offense toward thee, Ziyaret.. I just felt like scribing a "zinger")

Just curious, but what would lead you to believe that Diane Keaton is an Aspie?

I can see Woody Allen.. but.. Diane Keaton.. not sure.

I think Jody Foster is much more obvious.

New Britain? No, I live in regular, boring, 100% original Old Britain. Great Britain, the United Kingdom, 'England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland', or whatever else you want to call it, but definitely not New Britain.
Where on earth is New Britain?

If you really want to know... ask Meiloyn.  

How about the great "quirky book writer" Edward Gorey, who died recently?

He was variably discussed as gay or asexual, and was a highly eccentric, reclusive individual who was also quite intelligent.  He seems to fit the Aspie profile.  Maybe we should start gathering data on him, and add him to the list of posthumous Aspies.

Yeah it's like I can certainly discuss artistic video games and a film by a director I love, with great enthusiasm (in a very social manner), and I can also show my offbeat sense of humor to one who connects with it (in a very social manner), but besides that I don't have a place in the narcissistic male NT world.  I don't have any "genuine social exploits" to talk about, and so on, it's just not within my realm of consciousness and therefore I'm quite left out.

Funny. Of course I suppose with Canadians you wouldn't be able to "tell" as much as with other places, particularly with such similar accents.

Personally I do not believe that Steven Spielberg has Asperger's.

I think Tim Burton is very likely, I have seen interviews with him and he has this "self-righteous attitude" that tends to often occur with AS, and esp. the most dedicated/hardworking Aspies.

your welcome!
sorry i couldn't remeber his name my dad said when i told him that Satoshi Tajiri (i had to paste that ) had as he said he wasn't suprised that you needed a form of autism to understand it! XD

well i dunno i had heard rumours and just thought i'd say but a friend of mine said he was quite sure of tim burton being an aspie!

I already said I agreed to that--yes, Tim Burton is almost certainly Aspergian.

It is Steven Spielberg that I have my doubts about.

she is certain because he has displayed enough autistic traits to probably be autistic

How do you know? I maintain that this amateur distance-diagnosing of famous people is both (1) unprofessional, (2) unfounded, (3) unhelpful and (4) unjustified. We are not qualified to diagnose anyone, let alone someone we have never even met and observed in person. This useless "claiming" of people as "our own" has got to stop.

i could say the smae about your delibrate attempts to annoy people

but it is only an assumption and it doesn't have to stop if they are only saying that they are quite sure of someone having a form of aspergers is that harming anyone?

I never attempt to deliberately annoy people. This is bullshit. Keep on topic; criticize my ideas, not my person.

As everyone here is fond of reminding us, it can be a burden to carry in today's society. And would you be happy to find a website full of amateurs speculating that you were schizophrenic, psychotic, had Down's, dyslexia, or whatever?

Of course, the same doesn't apply to dead people. But in any case, it's mostly amateurs that have no qualifications to diagnose anyone, doing it on the basis of third-hand information, without ever observing the person or even speaking to someone who did, without ever going through the various methods used to assess whether someone really has AS. It's unprofessional, the claims are unjustified, and it's misleading.

I agree that it's unprofessional, but as long as we all agree that it's not professional diagnosis, and don't think of it as anything other than a fun game, I don't think it's a problem. I've seen some quite interesting discussions on the nature of Autism come out of these sorts of threads...

All this is just as long as we're not using the names outside these forums to justify debating points - that is counterproductive.

I don't know:  ask Lili Marlene, who maintains the list of famous living and non-living Aspies.  You'd have to ask her, and not me.

to be perfectly honest sometimes unproffesional speculation can help to an actual diagnosis which is why my grandmother was eventually diagnosed with schizophenia.

this is all just speculation nothing more if you don't like it than don't post

i wouldn't bother with him any more i think he got the message

Some points. You shouldn't go by DSM-IV alone, it's far from the only diagnostic criteria in use throughout the world.

So, fuckups happen. Doesn't mean unqualified amateurs are any better at diagnosis. You shouldn't presume so.

As for schizophrenia, there is a type of schizophrenia not too different from AS that doesn't require split personality, psychosis and so on.

[quot]Regarding your protests that we are diagnosing people that we cannot observe, well in the age of almost limitless electronic media access, this is not true. I think someone on this thread wrote that they had observed Tim Burton, I assume in some mass media programme. I'm sure that most famous people have some footage of them that can be viewed in the internet, TV, video-hire, DVD-hire, public libraries (that loan all kinds of stuff) or through purchase of media products. Look at the references section of my list and you can find links to moving images that you can view over the net of Bill Gates rocking and also some of Glenn Gould being Glenn Gould. I've recently realized that a hugely well-known female Australian journalist appears to be AS. I've seen her body language innumerable times on TV over a span of decades, and it's plainly obvious that she has hypertelorism and a monotone voice. A while back I was watching a documentary in which my favourite Australian musician was interviewed, and I couldn't help but notice his utterly deadpan voice and body language (that he has always had) and they way he rocked his way through the interview. Knowing that he has a BIG reputation for behaving in an Aspergian manner, what am I supposed to think?[/quote]
How would you like it if someone made a website where they speculated in YOUR mental health? Oh, she looks so schizophrenic, or, hmm, maybe narcissistic. In fact, this is what happens to a lot of celebrities and guess what, most of the amateur-diagnosed illnesses are wrong.

Seeing someone on TV isn't enough to diagnose anyone. ALL the traits you've mentioned are non-essential; one cna have them (yes, all of them at the same time) without having AS and vice versa.

Look at some other diagnostic criteria. Also, note that none of these traits are ones you have if, and only if you have AS or some kind of autism.

I haven't attacked you personally. You're free to make a list of people speculated to be autistic. I'm not out to get you, but I disagree that the people you presumably link to (havn't seen the list) are qualified or justified in their speculation.

If it weren't for having some of these physical traits, I probably would just consider myself to be nerdly rather than aspie. To me, it's the weird assortment of these that, imo, tip me into the aspie camp.

I have a fantasy that one day I can ask Bill Gates what he thinks of the fact that some people have diagnosed him with AS. (This is far-fetched but not totally out of the realm of possibility, since he occasionally shows up in my workplace.  I've been within about 6 ft of him--he looks pretty normal to me but consider the source.)

hypertelorism - is this a trait common in aspergers/autism?

I have no idea what hypertelorism is, but I'd like to point out that I didn't write that. Perhaps it's an error in formatting

You cannot generalize in this way. There's a huge logical gap in there, between "doctors and medical professionals aren't omniscient" to "they aren't qualified to make diagnoses".

No, psychosis is most definitely not the defining feature of modern, mainstream medical definitions of schizophrenia. Here's one modern, mainstream medical definition, from DSM IV:

As you can see, it suffices to have "(4) grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior,
(5) negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition" and social/occupational dysfunction.      

Well, excuse me for not applying a word filter to remove the offending language. You understood well what I wrote, even though I may have had to write "YOUR neurological variation" to please you. Oh, and I don't care about "how we view autism in this forum". There is no collective brain here, there's a spectrum (haha) of views and beliefs. Last I checked, members didn't have to agree with any opinions to join here.

Your nitpicking about language completely ignores the point of that section. Also, I have never said or implied that autism is an illness. Just because I'm not always politically correct here doesn't mean I necessarily disagree with you.

Perhaps you'd like to make a substantive response to the point of that section, which was that amateurs constantly speculate about the mental health and neurological variety and everything that's got to do with the minds of celebrities, and that they are wrong as often or more often than they're right?

What makes you think amateurs are qualified to diagnose autism?

Would you please provide a reference that says these things are sufficient to diagnose someone with autism, or that rule out that these traits could be caused by anything else? Until then, I suggest at least sticking with the official diagnostic criteria.

We were not talking about writing about the autistic spectrum. I never denied that anyone had any right or qualifications to write about the autistic spectrum.

We were discussing the far-diagnosis of people. The diagnosis of people whom the person doing the diagnosis hasn't met. The diagnosis of people long dead. Do I think that anyone is qualified to do that? Let's say I still hold my reservations about such far diagnosis, regardless of who makes them.

I must admit that the total disdain for science and evidence, as well as the staggering naivete and the uncritical embracing of information gets a bit irritating too.

But you know what is even more irritating? That people aren't supposed to disagree. People aren't supposed to be skeptical or question established truths.

I do not hold any holier-than-thou attitude. You're welcome to be skeptical of any claims I make; unlike some, I welcome criticism and disagreement so long as it's constructive. What pisses me off is this constant focus on people and their attitudes and ways of expressing themselves instead of what they express. I thought aspies were supposed to be non-prejudiced, taking things literally instead of focusing on the person making a claim. I'm starting to realize that was only prejudice from reading too much and meeting too few aspies on my part.

I haven't kept up with this thread, but Dr. Fitzgerald has indeed done this far-diagnosis of people long dead.  His book Genius Genes:  How Asperger Talents Changed the World does exactly that.  Given that he has a doctorate in autism and has been a researcher in the field since 1973, having diagnosed over 1500 individuals with autism and Asperger Syndrome, I tend to take his diagnoses seriously.  In this book he includes:
Archimedes
Isaac Newton
Henry Cavendish
Thomas Jefferson
Charles Babbage
Charles Darwin
Gregor Johann Mendel
Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
Gerard Manley Hopkins
Nikola Tesla
David Hilbert
H.G. Wells
John Broadus Watson
Albert Einstein
Bernard Law Montgomery
Charles de Gaulle
Alfred C. Kinsey
Norbert Wiener
Charles A. Lindbergh
Kurt Godel
Paul Erdos

ISBN 978-1-931282-44-4

For what it's worth.

A lot of people aren't able to make the distinction between a person and his or her ideas. So a criticism of the latter is interpreted as a criticism of the former.  It can get pretty annoying, I agree.

Unfortunately I do not hit the "Aspie mark" in that category, I can be literal minded but I also notice tonality in writing and the possible subtext of what someone is saying.  Anyhow I am partly NT (perhaps slightly), and what's more, I've been conditioned to examine all modes of communication for symbolic meaning (NT communication) and to derive an emotional state of mind when possible, so that I can respond correctly.  That's how I was taught, and brought up.  A lifetime of "trying to read the stupid symbols that NTs use" will do this to a person.

Thank you for including me in this group, but then you might argue, "case in point."

LOL, Batman.
Your habit of public self-criticizing or attention-seeking does indeed at times annoy me.
Sometimes, it seems to me as if you decide to feel attacked when none such was intended.
It's in conversations like this:

Poster A:  "I (or some other aspie) experience(s) bla bla bla"
Batman:  Well, I don't experience bla bla bla, so does that mean I'm not an aspie?

I confess. I find this kind of interruption to a thread irritating.

It's pretty obvious that not all aspies share all aspie-ish characteristics, and I personally find the discussions of different types of experiences to be interesting and informative about the whole "aspie" landscape.

But anyways....the reactive response to criticism of an idea is something I deal with in real life on a regular basis. I often wish that people were more thick-skinned.

Yes, Interesting...lol.

Yes, I do. I'm constantly battling internally between the view that this makes me a sellout confirmist snob who wants to be great so as to achieve the benefits of greatness, and the view that this makes me noble for wanting to achieve good results or for enjoying the process of making or breaking good ideas. Probably, the answer is in between.

I've explained the general cause for this tendency before, I think:  I don't have a self-concept or identity.  Before you think this is another attack on myself, realize I'm being quite honest.  I don't know if you or anyone else here can help me form an identity or a self-concept, but I'm saying, that's what "leads" to this.

I theorize that some Aspies don't have identity problems because they have great cognitive gifts in their special interests, and then probably go on to careers which involve their special interests in some way.  The cognitive gifts allow them to excel in their career, providing it caters somewhat to their interests.  Not to underestimate the value of hard work, of course.  But this is how their identity is formed--their identity is based around their job, interests, and the great amount of work they do in these areas.

All I can say is it's a much, much different story for me.

I don't think you are, really - it was just an 'ooops! ' moment! (I have my share of those! )

I think a lot (if not most) people have fantasies about achieving greatness in some way or other; most of us never get nearly as close as you did! That must be extremely frustrating!

Anyway, welcome to AFF!

Yes a warm welcome to our little aspie island.

You're not, and it wasn't my intention to portray you as such. Welcome to AFF. Your work sounds interesting, too

Grin!
How big a grain?

I also have this incredibly grandiose "ideal self," which is extremely hard to reconcile with my "real self."  It seems I can't really "get it in between."

So when I'm thinking about my "ideal self" (usually when I have some great ideas swirling) it's sometimes quite troubling to "come back down" to earth.

I am exactly the same way.  Someone on another forum said I have "both an inferiority complex and a superiority complex."  I think this may be common for some Aspies.  "Perfect or not at all" kinda thing, eh?

I'd think about game art if I could learn perspective/spatial skills in drawing, alas, I have not been able to.  My brain won't let me.

So you think that a person, in order to fit the criteria, must also fit a criterion not in the official criteria? This reeks of special pleading. What I presented is the important part, nearly the full criteria; the other criteria do not state anything about being insane, psychosis, or anything like that, they simply restrict the number of additional/co-morbid diagnoses.

Go look it up if you like: the full criteria do not require insanity or psychosis.

Another thing is that you jumped all over me when I happened to mention mental health and autism in the same sentence, but you have no trouble saying that people with schizophrenia have something seriously wrong with them and are insane.

Just seems a bit inconsistent, being that schizophrenia, too, has a strong genetic component, and the neurotype that is predisposed to schizophrenia is very much integral to that person, just as much so as with autism.

What you need to look for is famous people who have demonstrably been correctly diagnosed in any well-publicized publication.

But anyway, I don't get your point. I see speculations about the mental health of celebrities everywhere. Online, in weekly gossip magazines, everywhere, and often with references to purported experts.

So, would you trust a proposal for a unified theory of physics from a journalist, on the grounds that "Journalists pry"?

If not, what is it that makes journalists qualified to be doctors and diagnosticians but not physicists? Do they not both require a long, extensive education?

When you mention that sometimes the famous are happy to reveal interesting things to journalists, of course, if they revealed a diagnosis I wouldn't have any trouble with it.

You're ignoring that there is also no one more biased than yourself. Self-diagnoses are notoriously unreliable in general. Not saying they're never right, just saying that they are unreliable. Often, they're wrong. Studies have shown time and again that people suck at evaluating themselves. Do you dispute this?

Further, I would have no trouble with the famous "coming out" about a self-diagnosis; or rather, I would urge people to be cautious as self-diagnoses can be unreliable, but I wouldn't mind anyone publicizing it.

But you're not talking about self-diagnoses. You're talking about the "expert diagnoses", from those very same experts you earlier sought to drag down from their pedestals, those same people you were so skeptical about earlier. And then there's the amateurs. They have every flaw the experts have, and the additional flaw that they aren't experts.

Exactly! Far-off diagnoses cannot possibly have this insight. Therefore, your own arguments show them to be unreliable.

You build a straw man when you bring up 5 minute medicine. Of course I don't trust that! Five minutes isn't enough for a correct diagnosis. But five minutes by an expert is often much better than hours with an amateur unqualified for the task. And it's a bit ironic that you bring up intimacy when you're trying to defend diagnosing people with whom it's impossible to have intimacy--long dead people, people on the other side of the planet whom you've never met!

To expand/clarify on this. Let's return to the physics analogy. Who's more likely to get the right answer when asked to calculate, say, what would happen when two atoms interacted in a certain manner: an expert well-versed in the mathematics of quantum mechanics, or an amateur (journalist or not) who's only read pop-sci explanations?

And with regards to experts: who's more likely to get a correct answer when asked to diagnose someone: a practicing diagnostician with intimate knowledge of the person's health and having met and observed the person several times, having been able to run any questionnaires and tests he'd like, or an expert who had access to none of these things?

Seeing as you can refer to studies that show self-diagnosis is often wrong, can you speculate about the "correct diagnosis" among those who misdiagnose themselves as Asperger's?  I am only asking for your personal insight on the matter, I realize it is not a "professional" question--but since you are skeptical of self-diagnosis, how's about you offer some of the more common oversights of a mistaken AS diagnosis.

Are we talking about personality disorders here (which may act somewhat similarly to the more rigid traits of AS) or ADHD?  For example, it's been said that ADD/ADHD can sometimes present in a very similar way to AS.

False analogy - the true analogy would be this:

Who's more likely to get the right answer when asked to calculate, say, what would happen when two atoms interacted in a certain manner: an expert well-versed in the mathematics of quantum mechanics, or a person that has observed video footage, images, and other subtle associated effects of these particular two atoms for their entire life?

It's entirely possible for a person to see the statments written in the DSM, read the expanded and explained versions of these statements listed all over the internet, and apply them to their own life. It is much harder for a professional to do this, as they must make assumptions about the persons life based on very limited experience with the person (not to mention most professionals limited experience with aspergers - if I hadn't lived so near to Tony Attwoods specialist clinic, who knows what might have happened?). Also, there would be no real gain in a person pretending that they fit the DSM - thus, I usually trust a self-dxing person.

As to the diagnosing famous people, that I agree isn't usually very accurate. However, I don't really care - it's a fun parlor game, and should be considered as such.

The analogy wasn't meant to apply for self-diagnosis, but for far-diagnosis of celebrities. I see your point, though.

I don't think anyone is pretending to fit any criteria. I just think they are often mistaken. I, too, trust self-diagnosing people, insofar as I believe their self-diagnoses are honest, and that they are absolutely convinced that they have the diagnose they self-dxed.

I get the feeling people are taking it more seriously than they should. If it's just a game and you acknowledge it, I have no trouble with that.

True enough - I think it's tempting to use celebrities as leverage to promote acceptance, but it can also be self-defeating, as the diagnoses can always be challenged.

Presenting it as a list of "possible aspies" is probably acceptable and useful - but defending or stating the diagnoses too strongly can make a person sound a bit too out there.

I thought I asked you a genuine question as well Simen, but you have not responded.  If you thought it was a dumb question, why not just say so.

I strongly believe Andy Kaufman was Autistic.

I really don't agree with you on that one, sorry.  We know he had an ADHD diagnosis at a young age, and was medicated for it with Desoxyn.  Not saying he couldn't also have AS, but from what I've read/seen of him, I don't see it.

Andy Kaufman went to college and I believe graduated, I think that is sufficient proof that he was not learning disabled, if you ask me anyway.

What is sane and what isn't is determined by society. Not too long ago being gay was being insane. Not too long ago, any form of mental or neurological variation was tantamount to insanity.

I agree about eccentric people, though.

Why do you even bother to defend idle amateur speculation if that's not what your list is about? You could've saved us both a lot of time by not writing things such as:

(Following "As you can probably tell, I have no sense of awe at all for the supposed superiority of professional opinion compared to the opinions of well-read, objective, and educated amateurs" in a previous post. In context, I took this to mean you think amateurs are just as qualified, if not more qualified, to diagnose than professionals.)

And I stand by what I've said: amateurs aren't medical professionals, and they aren't qualified to act as if they are, either. Medical professionals are qualified, but they can't diagnose without having sufficient information. Dead people, celebrities they'd never met...It's speculation. From professionals, it's called "educated guessing". From amateurs, it's called "pure speculation."

Other than that, I won't repeat what I've said elsewhere. My position is stated in the quote in this post, and I agree with EvilZakkie on this, too.

I don't know anything about that, but I'm very wary of the word 'sexism'. It could well be that women are less genetically predisposed to Aspergers. That is not any kind of supremacy or propaganda, just a possibility. It's not better or worse, simply different.

That's true. We should be careful not to put too much faith in authority simply for being authority.

I don't buy that. Most of those on the list didn't have the diagnoses, sp there is no fact that proves they had asperger. It seems much like speculations... and what does it prove? It reminds me of some people who are active in the gay community who are convinced that a lot of famous people through history were homosexuals (Jesus, for exampel) without having any real evidence on that.

...

(copied and pasted from RoadDahlFans.com)

Someone has already cited Prince as a possible Aspie - I saw it when I was browsing the forums before typing my last-but-one post to see which of the so-called "Aspie cousins" had been mentioned. I can't for the life of me remember who previously said that Prince was Aspie. A search on "Prince" produced three pages of results. Good luck to you if you feel like going through them all.

Apart from Prince, there have been several musicians mentioned in this thread: Dan Ackroyd, Hildegard of Bingen, Thelonius Monk, Steve Clark of Def Leppard, Mozart, Beethoven, Satie, Bartok, Glenn Gould, Ian Curtis of Joy Division, David Byrne of Talking Heads and Kurt Cobain to name but most of them.

I once started a thread about the link between Asperger's and musical talent: "AS and classical musicians", lurking in the depths of the General forum if you feel like resurrecting it.

The letter-writer's name was Neil, not David. Beg his pardon.

On its own, though, that's not enough to suggest AS.

His love of change seems odd for someone who may have AS.  "If you're not busy changing, you're busy dying." -Bob Dylan

I think it depends to a great extent on your family and social environment as you're growing up.

My life has been very different to that of a lot of Aspies.

Due to circumstances beyond my control as a child and teenager, and sometimes beyond my control in my twenties, I've experienced a lot of change.

I'm aware that the general stereotype is that Aspies don't like or can't cope with change, but for me, I think a constant state of change has become my constant.

I can imagine that if an Aspie is forced into a situation where they experience a lot of change, i.e. a musician, gigging a lot at different venues, touring on the road, then their 'habit' their lifestyle might involve living out of suitcases and sleeping in different hotel rooms.

I think some Aspies can be quite adaptable if they are absolutely forced out of their comfort zone.

I know *I* wouldn't be...

So I can add "aspies lack emotions" to the growing list of offensive statements you've made.

REALLY?? I love Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, I didn't know Lewis Carrol was an Aspie...

Anyway, dunno if this has been mentioned before, but Tajiri Satoshi, creator of Pokemon, has AS. (He's not really famous though...)

The creator of Naruto (snap, can't remember his name) described his "childhood obsessions".

I'm responding to something you said. I don't really care much about the research - Do you, personally, believe that aspies lack emotions?

Then my original comment stands.

Not for me it isn't, and not for lots of other Aspies I know. We do have emotions and are far from apathetic: we just have some issues about expressing the emotions. It's only a minority of Aspies who lack emotions.

If I were to have a stab at "diagnosing" Adolph Hitler, I would suggest he suffered from histrionic (borderline) personality, severe paranoia, and narcissistic personality.

Popper is your favorite too?

Not only his epistemology and philosophy of science excellent, but so is his political philosophy. His famous work The Open Society And It's Enemies is what turned me away from Marxism.

Daniel Johnston (see "Devil in Daniel Johnston") is a good example of someone with Schizoaffective Bipolar.

I think Philip K. Dick was possibly schizoaffective (haven't read anything that suggests full-blown schizophrenia in him) or at least schizotypical.

I think when trying to determine whether a famous person are autistic it is important to ignore what autistics supposedly can or can't do, I think behavioral traits are more important to analyze.

Charisma??? What the... Do you really think it was charisma? If that's your view on German history... Hitler had NO kind of charisma. He just had the ability to make the German people go mad. OK, he was able to persuade, but that was not charisma - it was just psychology.

More like a major criminal psychopath with all the charm of a death adder on steroids once the victim worked out what the truth really was.

Your idea that "anyone" with AS can just "toss their AS behaviours away" is really beginning to grate on my nerves.

I suggest you either retract the statement or explain better what you mean.

You seem to be pro-cure, almost.

AS is an autistic spectrum disorder.  You can't have AS without having any clear-cut autistic tendencies or behaviors.

Maybe you mean AS minus the autism = something like BAP, or Broader Autistic Phenotype.

Would you be happy to hear that one could just "lose" his AS behaviors/tendencies with a little bit of work and dedication?

I don't know about you, but to me, it's presumptuous and wrong.

I'm not sure I could do it that simply. My aspie traits are so intertwined with my general personality I can't really tell where they stop and my personality starts.

That was my point. People certainly can acquire knowledge and insight, but one can't "lose" AS, and even if one could, why would one want to?

I don't see what the concept of "losing" AS has to do with famous people. Most of the famous people in my list were significantly and pervasively unusual for their entire life span, to say the least.

It's possible to be both. Loners can look at society and choose to flout the rules just as social people can.

Yeah -- like why isn't Temple Grandin on this list?  She is certainly famous...

For that matter, maybe I should be on the list.  Seriously.  Google my name:  Yonassan Gershom.  Are Nobel Prizes the only measurment of a person's worth?

I just Googled the name, and yes, you definitely are famous.

I'll admit though that I'd never heard of you prior to reading your post.

Oh, I see Temple Grandin is on the long list

Not surprising.  Unless you have a particular interest in reincarnation and/or Judaism studies, why should you have heard of me?   LOL!

BTW, if Lili needs documentation, there is this statement by me in my book "Jewish Themes in Star Trek" (which I suppose you coud call my "coming out" statement.  It has never been all that important for me to wave my medical or other personal issues issues in public but this fit the theme of the discussion:

------------------------------

"...I do, however, relate to Data for reasons that have nothing to do with Judaism.  I happen to be on the high-functioning end of the autism spectrum (Asperger’s Syndrome), and I see many of my own behaviors mirrored in Data.  Like Data, I do not intuit the subtleties of Human behavior very well.  I am forever misreading facial expressions and missing obvious social cues.  I also tend to take things too literally.   In one scene, Data is learning to play poker and, when told to throw some cards away, literally flips them over his shoulder.  I’ve done equally silly things because of literalism.

In this area, Data has helped me to accept the fact that my brain processes information dif-ferently from those around me.  Like Data, I am not spontane-ous and, because I do not intuit social situations well, I often make decisions by running little “programs” in my head.
In my youth, I agonized over my inability to be part of the crowd but, as I matured, I learned to accept my difference.   As I am now fond of saying, “Nobody expects Stephen Hawk-ing to dance, so don’t expect me to be the life of the party.”  I focus, instead, on the things that I can do – and I do them well, without worrying about my inability to “fit in” socially.   However, this is not the same as Data’s quest to become more Hu-man.  I am already Human, just different."  (pages 95-96)

--------------------------

If you want to see my mannerisms, go to http://www.asacreduty.com to see the documentary film "A Sacred Duty:  Applying Jewish Values to Heal the World" by Jewish Vegetarians of North America (JVNA) -- I'm the Hasidc guy in the beginning of the film (as well as in a few other places througout.)

My point is not to blow my own horn but simply to say that "fame" is a relative term.  Niche achievers rarely are seen as famous by the general public.  

True.  But keep in mind that Bob Dylan is also JEWISH and such rocking (called "shuckling" in Yiddish) is characteristic of Jewish prayer and also very common in Jewish conversations in general.   Perhaps you have seem footage of Jews praying at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, where they all rock back and forth?   If you go to an Orthodox synagogue, EVERYBODY is rocking like that.  I have often said that if a gentile walked into a Hasidic prayer service, he or she would think it was a support group for autistic adults.  See my comments in the thread on Jewish people in the Genetics section for more discussion on this.  I am not saying all Jews are Aspies, just that rocking is culturally acceptable and even encouraged in the more traditional sectors of the Jewish community.  This should be taken into consideration.

Actually, I don't really care if I'm on the list or not, that wasn't my real point.  I probably peaked about 15 years ago anyway -- when my best-known book, Beyond the Ashes: Cases of Reincarnation from the Holocaust came out in 1992.  During that time I was on numerous radio and TV shows (Sightings, Unexplained Mysteries, Twin Cities Live, and others) and there was a time that my Google count was way over 20,000.  I am also quoted in numerous books on reincarnation, including a chapter in a book by parapsychologist Brad Steiger (who also wrote the intro to the sequel to my book, From Ashes to Healing.)  But fame comes and goes, and I have more than my 15 minutes of it LOL!

As for hearing of people, who is Julie Myerson???  Never heard of her...
Which is sort of my point.

Oh I can't stand her.  She wrote a tell all book about her own son and his cannnabis addiction, against his wishes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Myerson

Oh yes, I do seem to recall that story now.  I never read tell-all books.  Totally boring, who cares?  (Well, I'm sure her son cares, but I would never waste my time with it.)

BTW, just for the record, I am self-diagnosed although I do have an official diagnosis of ADHD from before 1994.  This was done with a complete neurological workup (over $3000 worth 15 years ago) that was paid for by the company I worked for at the time, because they insisted I "see a psychiatrist" regarding a disagreement over where my desk should be.  So I insisted they pay for it.  The result was they had to move my desk -- one big step for an Aspie, one small step for humankind?

I have no doubt that if Aspergers had been a possible diagnosis back then, they would have DXed me for it.  Right now I have no health insurance and no desire to pay for a DX.   I also have no real agenda in claiming AS other than having an explanation for my oddness.  The only reason it got included in the Star Trek book is becvause I was discussing how I do or do not relate to various characters and the comparison with Data seemed appropriate.  

Among other things, my work bosses sent me to a psychiatrist because I was "hearing" annoying sounds coming from the radio at the desk next to me and was supposedly "the only one complaining about it". Luckily, he was able to diagnose with Asperger's.

The radio sounded as if it were constantly off the station and could not be tuned properly because it was almost worn out.