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Barber Paradox - Printable Version +- Aspies For Freedom (http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com) +-- Forum: General (/forumdisplay.php?fid=48) +--- Forum: Time out (/forumdisplay.php?fid=5) +---- Forum: Politics, religion and philosophy (/forumdisplay.php?fid=67) +---- Thread: Barber Paradox (/showthread.php?tid=22173) |
Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 12:17 AM Here is an interesting mathematical paradox for those interested in Mathematics or in general: The paradox involves a male barber in a town, who everyday shaves every man who does not shave himself, does the barber shave himself? The paradox seems to demand that the barber shave himself if and only if he does not shave himself! This paradox was proposed by Mathematician and Philosopher Bertrand Russel. It still has not been solved today, but nevertheless it forced a modification to set theory in Mathematics. RE: Barber Paradox - skyblue1 - 04-11-2011 12:47 AM not much of a paradox, especially if the barber wore a beard. RE: Barber Paradox - Vampslord - 04-11-2011 12:50 AM And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont. RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 01:10 AM skyblue1 Wrote: not much of a paradox, especially if the barber wore a beard.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 01:11 AM Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 01:38 AM Tank123 Wrote: Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - skyblue1 - 04-11-2011 02:11 AM Tank123 Wrote: skyblue1 Wrote: not much of a paradox, especially if the barber wore a beard.
RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 02:57 AM I can see the value in this as a thought experiment, and even though I don't have a lot of knowledge of higher mathematics I can see how it would affect set theory. What it shows is that a simple "either/or" statement can actually imply 3 categories, not just 2. You have to move beyond the idea that there are two types of men in the town, as implied by the original statement - those who shave themselves and those who are shaved by the barber. The barber himself is obviously a 3rd category not covered by the statement. I don't think that there is much point trying to "solve" it, though, as there is about as much chance of solving this one as there is of solving definitively "which came first, the chicken or the egg?". RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 02:58 AM skyblue1 Wrote: there is no math involved
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 03:21 AM 142857 Wrote: I don't think that there is much point trying to "solve" it, though, as there is about as much chance of solving this one as there is of solving definitively "which came first, the chicken or the egg?".
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 03:27 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 03:35 AM Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 03:45 AM d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: I don't think that there is much point trying to "solve" it, though, as there is about as much chance of solving this one as there is of solving definitively "which came first, the chicken or the egg?".
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 04:09 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 04:16 AM Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - WASPIE - 04-11-2011 04:21 AM Tank123 Wrote: skyblue1 Wrote: not much of a paradox, especially if the barber wore a beard.
Nicely said and this is why it is autistic in nature.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 04:25 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Vampslord Wrote: And it does not implies that he shave only the man who dont shave. Only that he shave all the man who dont.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 04:37 AM Tank123 Wrote: But my statement is mathematical in nature. That is because Mathematics is in some sense essentially logic. Just because it does not contain numbers, does not mean it is not mathematical. Using mathematical language, this paradox involves the set of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Many sets R are not members of themselves-for example, the set of cubes is not a cube. Examples of sets T that do contain themselves as members are the set of all sets, or the set of all things except cubes. Every set would seem to be either of Type R or of Type T, and no set can be both. However, when Russel was forming this paradox, he wondered about the set S of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Somehow, S is neither a member of itself nor not a member of itself.
I know this seems mind boggling, but in the words of mathematician Ronald Graham, "Our brains have evolved to get us out of the rain, find where the berries are, and keep us from getting killed. Our brains did not evolve to help us grasp really large numbers or to look at things in a hundred thousand dimensions."
RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 04:39 AM I can see the value in this paradox, and I can see how it has the implications for set theory that you stated above. But all it boils down to is that you cannot always encapsulate every possibility with a simple either/or statement. In this case the statement implies that there are two types of men in the town, when in fact there must be at least 3. It doesn't need to be mind boggling - it is pretty simple really. Think about it this way: this is only mind boggling if you go in with the expectation that a simple either/or statement can always cover every possibility - and your mind then refuses to let go of that expectation. RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 04:43 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Also, I hate to break it to you, but ambiguity and double meanings do exist in mathematics. Example: the square root of 4 is both 2 and -2.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 04:53 AM 142857 Wrote: I can see the value in this paradox, and I can see how it has the implications for set theory that you stated above.
But all it boils down to is that you cannot always encapsulate every possibility with a simple either/or statement. In this case the statement implies that there are two types of men in the town, when in fact there must be at least 3. It doesn't need to be mind boggling - it is pretty simple really. Think about it this way: this is only mind boggling if you go in with the expectation that a simple either/or statement can always cover every possibility - and your mind then refuses to let go of that expectation.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 04:56 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: But my statement is mathematical in nature. That is because Mathematics is in some sense essentially logic. Just because it does not contain numbers, does not mean it is not mathematical. Using mathematical language, this paradox involves the set of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Many sets R are not members of themselves-for example, the set of cubes is not a cube. Examples of sets T that do contain themselves as members are the set of all sets, or the set of all things except cubes. Every set would seem to be either of Type R or of Type T, and no set can be both. However, when Russel was forming this paradox, he wondered about the set S of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Somehow, S is neither a member of itself nor not a member of itself.
I mean double meaning does not exist in mathematics in the sense of like figurative language and such. For example, when I say that: If A=B, then A+C=B+C There is no double meaning behind this or any other mathematical expression. It is what one sees and nothing else. I know this seems mind boggling, but in the words of mathematician Ronald Graham, "Our brains have evolved to get us out of the rain, find where the berries are, and keep us from getting killed. Our brains did not evolve to help us grasp really large numbers or to look at things in a hundred thousand dimensions."
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 04:58 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: But my statement is mathematical in nature. That is because Mathematics is in some sense essentially logic. Just because it does not contain numbers, does not mean it is not mathematical. Using mathematical language, this paradox involves the set of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Many sets R are not members of themselves-for example, the set of cubes is not a cube. Examples of sets T that do contain themselves as members are the set of all sets, or the set of all things except cubes. Every set would seem to be either of Type R or of Type T, and no set can be both. However, when Russel was forming this paradox, he wondered about the set S of all sets that aren't members of themselves. Somehow, S is neither a member of itself nor not a member of itself.
I know this seems mind boggling, but in the words of mathematician Ronald Graham, "Our brains have evolved to get us out of the rain, find where the berries are, and keep us from getting killed. Our brains did not evolve to help us grasp really large numbers or to look at things in a hundred thousand dimensions."
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 05:00 AM 142857 Wrote: I can see the value in this paradox, and I can see how it has the implications for set theory that you stated above.
But all it boils down to is that you cannot always encapsulate every possibility with a simple either/or statement. In this case the statement implies that there are two types of men in the town, when in fact there must be at least 3. It doesn't need to be mind boggling - it is pretty simple really. Think about it this way: this is only mind boggling if you go in with the expectation that a simple either/or statement can always cover every possibility - and your mind then refuses to let go of that expectation.
RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 05:01 AM Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 05:04 AM 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 05:06 AM 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 05:08 AM d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 05:15 AM Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 05:23 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-11-2011 05:37 AM Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-11-2011 05:53 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - 142857 - 04-11-2011 06:03 AM d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: d_olson27 Wrote: 142857 Wrote: Tank123 Wrote: Mathematics is reality.
RE: Barber Paradox - billyt - 04-11-2011 10:14 AM He has low testosterone (he sings falsetto in the barbershop quartet - the other three of whom he shaves) and therefore has a face like a baby's bottom. Having no beard in any case he doesn't not shave..he merely doesn't have too. Fankie Valley had this issue, despite being Italian. Something to do with pollution and nukes in NJ. RE: Barber Paradox - Vampslord - 04-11-2011 12:45 PM He could just trim his beard. RE: Barber Paradox - Alison - 04-11-2011 01:45 PM The barber's a woman. And Bertrand Russell really needs to get out and meet some nice girls and get himself laid more. Alison RE: Barber Paradox - Tank123 - 04-12-2011 12:08 AM Vampslord Wrote: He could just trim his beard.
RE: Barber Paradox - skyblue1 - 04-12-2011 12:37 AM so the OP was incorrect in its text to begin with? RE: Barber Paradox - d_olson27 - 04-12-2011 01:00 AM skyblue1 Wrote: so the OP was incorrect in its text to begin with?
RE: Barber Paradox - ArianiaAmy - 04-12-2011 08:27 AM Haha. I almost said the barber lost his beard in chemotherapy. That doesn't solve it though, I know because he's still a man and all men in this town must either shave themself or have the barber shave them. There's a no beard or other hair loss policy it seems. Wait! The barber is still just a boy! They don't have child labor laws there and his parents let him play with sharp objects. It just says male, not male adult. But doubtful.... Nice paradox
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