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Study shows religion set for extinction - 142857 - 03-23-2011 03:44 AM
http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/9058938/religion-set-extinction-western-countries/
A US study using census data shows that religion here and in eight other Western world countries is set for extinction.
Census data was taken from as far back as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.
The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.
In New Zealand, it's thought around half of all Kiwis claim no religious affiliation.
Massey University Associate Professor of History Peter Lineham says in the 1950s, around 10% of New Zealanders had no religious affiliation. He says that increased to 45% in the 2006 census.
"Hopefully the 2011 Census will take place at some point next year and we'll know the latest figures, but it surely will have gone up to over 50%," he told Newstalk ZB.
Professor Lineham says the study would have very different results if the study looked at other countries.
"If they took any countries beyond the western countries they've named, they would actually have the opposite phenomenon of religion getting larger."
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Burzum - 03-23-2011 10:11 AM
Good. Imaginary friends are counter-productive.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Mytelli! - 03-23-2011 11:11 AM
Oooh Snap
Is this refering to active participation in organised religion or not beliving in god(s) at all?
What would this mean for charaties? So many of them are religiouse.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Gareth - 03-23-2011 11:43 AM
I'm skeptical that religion will ever completely die out. So many people have a deep emotional need for belief in a higher purpose or an afterlife and will happily reinvent new religions even if all existing ones were to be eliminated.
Religious influence on society and everyday life has been on the decrease though, and that can only be a good thing for general liberty.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Yuji - 03-23-2011 04:58 PM
According to Dr. Abraham Maslow, faith is a basic human need, especially the belief in the possibility of an afterlife. So I can't imagine that idea going away anytime soon.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Burzum - 03-23-2011 05:07 PM
Believing in things without evidence is a basic human need?
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - kevout2 - 03-23-2011 05:13 PM
I can remember back in the late 1980's reading a newspaper article about what the 1980's were expected to be like back in the 1950's. It was thought that by the 1980's religion would be a thing of the past because of scientific advances being able to eliminate basic evils plagueing mankind. The cure for polio could be thought of as one good example.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Yuji - 03-23-2011 05:18 PM
"Humans need to feel a sense of belonging and acceptance, whether it comes from a large social group, such as clubs, office culture, religious groups, professional organizations, sports teams, gangs, or small social connections (family members, intimate partners, mentors, close colleagues, confidants)."
Hm. For some reason, I remember my psychology textbook emphasizing religion more in its discussion of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but on its Wikipedia page, it gets only a passing mention. And in the same sentence as "gangs." Ouch. Still, there's no denying that religion helps some people and inspires them to perform beneficial, prosocial actions.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - kevout2 - 03-23-2011 05:49 PM
Hm. For some reason, I remember my psychology textbook emphasizing religion more in its discussion of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but on its Wikipedia page, it gets only a passing mention. And in the same sentence as "gangs." Ouch. Still, there's no denying that religion helps some people and inspires them to perform beneficial, prosocial actions.
Hmmm . . . social acceptance; the sense of belonging; is something that Aspies have struggled with throughout the ages. It is only in the modern age; with the internet; that this is finally slowly happening. AFF is but one example of the sense of belonging that Aspies seek.
About Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I beleive that "social acceptance" is the second of the five pyramid levels going from the bottom to the top. I am of the opinion that for the vast majority of Aspies; they seldom make it past the second level in Maslow's model. Aspies tend to be stuck struggling to be; at a minimum; at this level.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Gareth - 03-23-2011 06:28 PM
No, it's a basic human weakness.
For some humans, the belief that there's some big plan set in place by a god or gods is a deep emotional need.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - kevout2 - 03-23-2011 06:34 PM
No, it's a basic human weakness.
For some humans, the belief that there's some big plan set in place by a god or gods is a deep emotional need.
Perhaps another way of looking at this is that when human needs go unmet; or when problems can't be solved with the means at human disposal; there's the need for a promise that such problems will be eliminated in the future. The beleive that a supernatural being will eventually fulfill such needs is the best way such needs can be met without actually fulfilling such needs. I guess you'd call this HOPE.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - skyblue1 - 03-23-2011 06:55 PM
doubt very seriously if even god could live up to god`s reputation and definition
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 03-23-2011 07:12 PM
Human need answer above all else. And most people dont really understand that because two event follow each other, it doesn't mean correlation.
Also there is the fact that religion brainwash people. Then the parent pass it to theyre childrens.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - kevout2 - 03-23-2011 07:22 PM
Also there is the fact that religion brainwash people. Then the parent pass it to theyre childrens.
Some people are more agressive and ruthless than others for their own personal interests. Certain kinds of religious leaders (cults) will use religion to manipulate others for their own personal ends (particularly wealth and prestige) by enticing and brainwashing the rank-and-file members to give up alot of their economic substance (i.e. money) in the name of satisfying a deity's demands.
Christopher Columbus and his crew were facing starvation at some point. Christopher Columbus was smart and creative. He knew about eclipses and when they would occur. There was a lunar eclipse coming up. When it occurred, the natives were terrified. Columbus played right into their fears. In order for their world not to end, the natives had to make sufficient food sacrifices to the gods. So Columbus took all the food the natives had to offer as the eclipse was finishing it's course. Now Columbus and his crew had food to eat.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - skyblue1 - 03-23-2011 07:26 PM
Poor Columbus, made the mistake of writing in his journal that he had seen a UFO in the shape of a menorah. Ended up being grilled by the inquistion.
So religion was used against him also.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Gareth - 03-23-2011 09:15 PM
Also there is the fact that religion brainwash people. Then the parent pass it to theyre childrens.
You mean it doesn't mean causation 
If they follow each other there's a strong temporal correlation, which often points to some form of causality, but not always.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - awiddershinlife - 03-24-2011 09:55 AM
That would be me 
But I cant stand the idea of an afterlife
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Callista - 03-24-2011 10:31 AM
I rather doubt it... I think we are simply seeing people being more honest about what they believe.
Back when it was popular to be religious, people who weren't religious went to church anyway because it was the thing you did on Sundays, and said they were Christian because everybody was. Now those people are free to explain that they aren't, in fact, religious after all.
The people who were sincerely religious then are the same people who are sincerely religious now. I haven't seen any decrease in their numbers. But the people who just go to church on Christmas and Easter are starting to realize that it's now okay to stop giving lip service to something they never believed in to begin with.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 03-24-2011 11:18 AM
Also there is the fact that religion brainwash people. Then the parent pass it to theyre childrens.
You mean it doesn't mean causation
If they follow each other there's a strong temporal correlation, which often points to some form of causality, but not always.
Yeah. forgot the time factor.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - M - 04-03-2011 02:10 PM
Organized religion is declining in most groups.
People know that they do not need to be controlled by religion. They can choose their own beliefs.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - 142857 - 04-03-2011 02:22 PM
Since 1972 Australia has elected at least 3 openly atheist Prime Ministers. Gough Whitlam, Julia Gillard (current PM) and Bob Hawke. Bob Hawke backpedalled though, and claimed to be agnostic when he ran for PM.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-03-2011 02:56 PM
Agnostic make me laugh. They need to grow a pair and decide if they believe or not.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - M - 04-03-2011 04:16 PM
probably they do have a belief or not, they just do not wish to say. Really depends on their understanding of the word Agnostic.
Or they could be still investigating the situation and need more proof or time. Why rush into a decision?
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - nialll - 04-03-2011 04:33 PM
bit harsh.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Duckfetishgirl - 04-03-2011 07:19 PM
I do feel like religion is becoming less and less important.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-03-2011 10:21 PM
Either you believe there is a god, or you dont. There is no maybe.
If no one proved god existence, then the only logical conclusion is: Based on actual evidence, there is no god.
You cant say: No one proved god, therefore maybe there is one.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Semicolon - 04-03-2011 11:31 PM
If no one proved god existence, then the only logical conclusion is: Based on actual evidence, there is no god.
You cant say: No one proved god, therefore maybe there is one.
That should read:
Assuming that "God does not exist" is the null hypothesis. If "God exists" is the null hypothesis, your statement is incorrect.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-04-2011 12:56 AM
Your right i forgot the THE ABSENCE.
The whole null hypothesis is irrelevant. The burden of proof hasn't been "fulfilled" (for lack of better term).
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - 142857 - 04-04-2011 02:24 AM
Most agnostics I've come across are simply people who don't want to claim absolute knowledge of the unknown. They think that because they cannot be absolutely certain of the non-existence of God, that they therefore must be agnostic.
And the problem with that is... that most people who feel absolute certainty one way or the other about the existence of God assume that agnostic means "I can't make my mind up - please convert me to your belief system".
If you take the broader definition of atheism, where you have weak atheists who lack belief in God, and strong atheists who are certain that God doesn't exist, then most agnostics could just as easily describe themselves as atheists.
I'm happy to go through life without claiming absolute knowledge of the unknown. That pretty much makes me a weak atheist or a practical atheist. I also think that the term "agnostic" is best kept for those who want lots of unsolicited help making their minds up about whether to believe or not to believe in God.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - black butterfly - 04-04-2011 04:51 AM
umm i actually am agnostic.
i dont belive in god but idont think that thiere is no spirtual things in this world. in other words ithink there is something out there or some reason for living but i dont belive in god. i often just go under atheist as i dont belive in god but is ay i am agnostic because i have some faith in spirtualaity
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-04-2011 04:59 AM
Wich bring it back to what i said earlier:
You cant say: No one proved god, therefore maybe there is one.
I'm a strong atheist. I know, with the evidence at hand (or lack of) that there is no god.
For example. Fairies. I know they dont exist. How? No one has prove them to me. If someone would present me evidence of, i would say they exist. But since no one could, i know they dont exist.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Shrek - 04-04-2011 05:28 AM
What about things like human guilt (or excessive guiltiness) and feeling better when there is a Jesus to forgive you and make you perfect in the next life?
1. People become religious (Christian from my experience) for emotional reasons. Maybe they are religious because they want to be.
2. It must stand to reason that people who are not religious or deny religion also want to be, and are simply using lack of visual evidence as an excuse, as the believers don't need any objective proof that there is a spirit world.
I think in my case conversion happened something like this
1. There are differences between myself and people called Christians
2. Spirits must be real
3. Christian spirits must be real
4. Christian spirits are stronger than I am
5. Slowly.... Christian spirits really care about us....
6. If you can't beat them join them....
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Shrek - 04-04-2011 05:33 AM
No, you are not atheist if you believe in spirits.
Anyone want to back me up on this?
umm i actually am agnostic.
i dont belive in god but idont think that thiere is no spirtual things in this world. in other words ithink there is something out there or some reason for living but i dont belive in god. i often just go under atheist as i dont belive in god but is ay i am agnostic because i have some faith in spirtualaity
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Shrek - 04-04-2011 05:35 AM
Also forgot to mention that Christian spirits make Christians do stronger things. Galatians 5:22-23, fruits of the spirit, enhanced patience, love, gentleness, goodness, bla bla bla....
It is easier to call yourself one than it is to be one
It is easy for Jesus to dismiss the false ones in the end
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Semicolon - 04-04-2011 06:19 AM
You cant say: No one proved god, therefore maybe there is one.
I'm a strong atheist. I know, with the evidence at hand (or lack of) that there is no god.
For example. Fairies. I know they dont exist. How? No one has prove them to me. If someone would present me evidence of, i would say they exist. But since no one could, i know they dont exist.
More logic:
- There was a time when no one had provided evidence that evolution was correct. During that time, evolution did not exist.
- Before Albert Einstein provided evidence for relativity, it did not exist because no one had proved it to be true.
- It was once accepted as proven that the sun revolves around the earth. Did that proof make it so that the earth revolves around the sun?
Yes, I know that in each of these cases, it is possible to actually present proof of the validity of the theory. However, there are some things that cannot be proven. For example, some philosophical problems cannot be conclusively decided. Does the outside world exist, or is it a hallucination? Do other people exist? Is the world actually the way we perceive it to be? If you look at Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, it has actually been mathematically proven that there are some true statements in certain mathematical systems that can never be proven to be true within those systems.
Also, your position can be inverted and produce a different result. No one has disproved the existence of God. Furthermore, it is impossible for anyone to ever disprove the existence of God. Therefore, God exists.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Shrek - 04-04-2011 06:33 AM
What if there is God taking great efforts to remain hidden?
As long as God is hidden you can forget proving creationism scientifically. Or intelligent design or whatever.
God doesn't want to make it easy on us to believe, like with our eyes. We sort of have to want to believe.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-04-2011 09:14 AM
You cant say: No one proved god, therefore maybe there is one.
I'm a strong atheist. I know, with the evidence at hand (or lack of) that there is no god.
For example. Fairies. I know they dont exist. How? No one has prove them to me. If someone would present me evidence of, i would say they exist. But since no one could, i know they dont exist.
More logic:
- There was a time when no one had provided evidence that evolution was correct. During that time, evolution did not exist.
- Before Albert Einstein provided evidence for relativity, it did not exist because no one had proved it to be true.
- It was once accepted as proven that the sun revolves around the earth. Did that proof make it so that the earth revolves around the sun?
Yes, I know that in each of these cases, it is possible to actually present proof of the validity of the theory. However, there are some things that cannot be proven. For example, some philosophical problems cannot be conclusively decided. Does the outside world exist, or is it a hallucination? Do other people exist? Is the world actually the way we perceive it to be? If you look at Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, it has actually been mathematically proven that there are some true statements in certain mathematical systems that can never be proven to be true within those systems.
Also, your position can be inverted and produce a different result. No one has disproved the existence of God. Furthermore, it is impossible for anyone to ever disprove the existence of God. Therefore, God exists.
Of course you can inverted position, but it's just contrary to science. It's a sophism. Once again, the burden of proof rest on the person making the claim.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-04-2011 09:18 AM
It is easier to call yourself one than it is to be one
It is easy for Jesus to dismiss the false ones in the end
I dont see any enhance patience, love, gentleness and certainly not an enhance honesty when it come to christian.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-04-2011 09:26 AM
Anyone want to back me up on this?
umm i actually am agnostic.
i dont belive in god but idont think that thiere is no spirtual things in this world. in other words ithink there is something out there or some reason for living but i dont belive in god. i often just go under atheist as i dont belive in god but is ay i am agnostic because i have some faith in spirtualaity
No you are wrong. An atheist can believe in spirit. Atheist only mean do not believe in God. Some Atheist do believe in creationism, spirit, afterlife, reincarnation etc.
But this made me realise a flaw in BB reasonning that i did not see at first reading. You are not agnostic, your atheist.
Also Shrek, BB is not talking about spirit, but spirituality. I have spirituality even though i'm a strong atheist and a skeptic.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Alison - 04-04-2011 09:58 AM
But I've never done anything to feel guilty about, I've always lived by the tenet of not hurting others except in self-defence or defence of those I love. Live and let live, in other words.
It does seem to me, at least, that religions exist to firstly MAKE you feel guilty, then offering to take that guilt away (absolving you of your sins) for a small payment, be it in donations, or loyalty to the religion, or bringing in more followers (your children, for a start) to make the religion grow more numerous and therefore stronger.
Sort of like a football club membership.
Alison
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Vampslord - 04-04-2011 11:56 AM
But I've never done anything to feel guilty about, I've always lived by the tenet of not hurting others except in self-defence or defence of those I love. Live and let live, in other words.
It does seem to me, at least, that religions exist to firstly MAKE you feel guilty, then offering to take that guilt away (absolving you of your sins) for a small payment, be it in donations, or loyalty to the religion, or bringing in more followers (your children, for a start) to make the religion grow more numerous and therefore stronger.
Sort of like a football club membership.
Alison
Bingo!
Eskimo: So you mean if i didn't know about God and sin i wouldn't go to hell?
Missionnary: Exactly
Eskimo: Wich mean i would go to heaven?
Missionary: Yes
Eskimo: Then why the *** haven't you shut your mouth?
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - 142857 - 05-20-2011 08:42 PM
I was just thinking about it - there really hasn't been any reason to believe in God since evidence was found that Darwin's theory of evolution was correct. More than a century. That answered the big question of "Where did we come from?" for just about anyone inclined to be scientific. So why do so many educated people still believe in God in the 21st century? Belief in God obviously fills some basic need or it would have fallen by the wayside already. If the huge scienctific discoveries up until this point in time has not been enough to convince people to discard religion, then I doubt that the kind of discoveries that will be made over the next century will have any greater an impact. Especially since much of the science being done these days is so esoteric.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Go For It - 05-20-2011 09:11 PM
You're assuming that the only reason God would exist would be for humans to explain evolution.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - 142857 - 05-20-2011 09:52 PM
No. I'm assuming that the primary reason that people had for believing in God was to explain:
(1) How did we get here, where did our kind come from?
(2) What is the meaning of life?
What I am saying is that Darwinism provided a perfectly valid scientific explanation for the biggest of the big questions. And yet that did not eradicate religion and belief in God, even among the very well educated.
So there are obviously other reasons for belief in God that go deeper than that. I'm sure that we will never agree on exactly the nature of those reasons. But whatever those reasons are, further scientific advancement may not have a big effect on whether people believe in God or not.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Grey Area - 05-20-2011 11:50 PM
Good riddance to it. I can't see it going without a fight though.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Alison - 05-21-2011 03:21 AM
[quote=142857
So there are obviously other reasons for belief in God that go deeper than that. I'm sure that we will never agree on exactly the nature of those reasons. But whatever those reasons are, further scientific advancement may not have a big effect on whether people believe in God or not.
[/quote]
I think the reasons so many humans believe in god (and how the idea evolved in the first place) is due to the fact that homo sapiens is wired to be a social animal, living in big herds. To genuflect to the Big Boss Alpha male of the herd is to survive and pass on your genes, whereas if you take umbrage that one Big Boss Alpha male has access to more resources than you, you will either take over from him by fighting, or get yourself killed in the attempt. Females, of course, will attempt to placate, groom and mate with him, and will have fights amongst themselves as to who will be his Next Squeeze.
Okay, so how does this become a larger faith in god? Well, assuming for years you geneflected, groomed, screwed, fought and eventually killed the last Big Boss Alpha male, you are now the Boss. Yet, with your pre-disposition of generations of genuflecting ancestors, you STILL believe in an Alpha male who is above you. You have weaker opponents who don't want to get beaten up but would like the power of telling the Alpha male what to do. Bingo, the priesthood is born.
Aspies, tending to be more of the "loner variant" of the species, do seem to have more trouble in agreeing with the rest of the herd about an Alpha male (or female, mother goddess worship has been big at times in prehistory, mummy being the first "god" every child encounters.)
Alison
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Alison - 05-21-2011 03:26 AM
Oh, wanted to add: I read studies in New Scientist, I think it was, where MRI scans were given to religious people and long-term atheists while religious messages were shown to them. In the religious people, areas of the brain lit up, where it did nothing for the atheists, so it seems that people who really do believe in god or gods, or whatever, get a real immediate reward of happy hormones. Which goes back to feeling "a part" of the herd, and therefore calm and happy and less likely to cause trouble where the herd as a whole would suffer.
Interestingly, the study went on to do the same with dogs, who are also social animals. When the dog's owner could be seen by the animal, the same areas of the brain as those in religious humans lit up. Other humans either appeared neutral to the brain or else there was an aggressive territorial response. So it seems that dogs live with their god every day of their lives.
Alison
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Gareth - 05-21-2011 03:30 AM
Do you know which region that was?
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - 142857 - 05-21-2011 03:37 AM
I've noticed that dogs seem to fall into two categories:
(1) Those that think their human owner is God.
(2) Those who think their owner is slow and stupid but has some sort of magical access to food. A lot like a canine version of a cargo cult.
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Alison - 05-21-2011 03:53 AM
It was a while back that I read it. I would try to dig it out so I could verify it and perhaps post it so others could read, but I'm flat out like a lizard drinking at the moment with essays. I shouldn't even be on here, but I need my daily dose of AFF with my morning cuppa!
Alison
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - rileyup - 05-25-2011 10:13 PM
no wonder,people are less faithful these days
RE: Study shows religion set for extinction - Grey Area - 05-27-2011 12:43 AM
Which people?