wut?

That's what America is supposed to be: the country where everyone's religious beliefs are respected. I am aware that this doesn't always work out in practice; some religions advocate practices that would be harmful to others. However, a woman wearing a burqa isn't doing it to make other people uncomfortable, or to infringe on their rights. She is doing it to honor her religion, and in doing so, she is doing nothing that infringes on the rights of others. Besides, multiculturalism is one of the reasons why America is a great place to live.

In America, you do not have the right to not be offended. Legally and morally, if you find the idea of a burqa to be offensive, that's your problem, not her problem. Additionally, I know a Muslim woman who was born and raised in America. She conforms to Muslim standards of dress. To where should she be sent?

It's an item of clothing.
Why do you find it so offensive?

More to the point, why should your offence mean you get to decide what others wear?

I absolutely have the right to be offended, any time I choose to be. I am not "supposed" to be any way except the way I am. I think you only read what you wanted to in my post. I said that even headscarves are extremely uncommon here. I didn't say I have ANY problem with muslim woman wearing headscarves, I only said I don't like the Burqa, NOT the headscarf, or  Hijab.

I find the Burqa offensive for a number of reasons. It is clearly a sign of the oppression of women to me, and I do have problem with someone moving to a different country and culture, and not being willing to conform to that countries culture. Also, my impression of the women that wear Burqas and their families, is that they are more likely to be extremists. I happen to have a dislike of extremists of ANY religious persuasion. By they way, I DO know, and respect, and am friends with, several people who are Muslim. I live in an area that is not culturally diverse, so I only know about five. They also conform to Muslim standards of dress, and were all born and raised in America. None of them wear a Burqa, however.

I thought that was how most relatively reasonable people feel. o.O

I see burqas from time to time here, headscarves VERY often.  A city nearby where I live is known to have one of the highest proportions of arabs in the world outside of the middle east, if not the highest, but I've never figured out whether or not that is actually true-- though the national arab-american museum is there, so I would not be surprised. I admit that the women in burqas intimidate me a bit because I can't see their facial expressions (IRONY!) and don't know how to read them, which is offputting, but I am not offended and don't care.  I don't like that women are forced to wear them but I am not going to pretend to understand their culture well enough to tell them what they should do.  We are from different worlds.  When a muslim woman asks for support in obtaining more civil rights I will support them, but otherwise I don't think it's my place to even really have an opinion.  I want to, it's inherent in me to want to protect women from things like this, but if the woman wants to wear it and supports the culture I guess I just have to admit I don't understand and leave her be until she wants my help.

Why should someone be forced to conform to the local culture by force of law? I find that idea far more offensive than any piece of clothe could ever be.

I'd think so too, but my view is "strange" because most people seem to have the opinion that if they're offended by it then that is reason enough to ban it, or the classic "if you come and live here, you must conform to the herd, bah bah bah".

Back where she came from of course!

I never suggested that you don't have the right to be offended. Please read my statement carefully. I have a tendency to say precisely what I mean.

It's all on a spectrum. What makes one form of dress acceptable and not the other? Both conform to religious and legal rules on the subject. What differentiates one from the other? In your opinion, the hijab is clearly covered by the free practice of religion, while the burqa is not. However, if, today, your reform is successful and we ban the burqa, what is to prevent someone else from banning the hijab tomorrow? The precedent will have been set for the government interfering in the free exercise of religion, merely because some members choose to dress outside of cultural norms. Shall we ban punk rockers next?

These two statements strike me as being extremely prejudicial. While it is true that you would expect the more devoted followers of a religion to adopt more extreme behavior relative to their host culture, it's unfair to make the generalization that everyone who wears a burqa is an extremist.

As for your views of the oppression of women, in Western countries, an individual cannot force any adult to wear any article of clothing that he/she chooses not to. No one has the right to force another to practice a religion in a certain way. Do you feel that women are oppressed because they wear burqas and men do not? If so, you are correct that a double standard exists, but you cannot fault a woman for willingly choosing to conform to a standard that has been set by religious authorities. Double standards for the sexes exist in almost all Western religions. If, for whatever reason, a woman believes that wearing a burqa is the key to eternal salvation, who are we to disagree with her? And suppose for a moment that this is a correct belief that accurately reflects the real world. Do you have the right to potentially stop her from eternal salvation just because you feel uncomfortable?

Gareth is absolutely right.

And if they did wear the burqa? What then? Would you stop being friends with them? Would you feel the need to proselytize them with your beliefs, merely because they are expressing their own? Would you continue to be friends with them, but silently disapprove of their choice of expression? Or, perhaps, would you learn to accept them and their expression for what it is?

Somehow I find the last choice extremely unlikely.

People have an obligation to be offended?

I knew a muslim girl once. She had some pretty neat hijabs. Didn’t get to know her perspective on the big focus on Islam in our country however.

Once again, you are sadly confused and mistaken. I never said the Burqa should be banned or that there should be a law against it. I said I am offended by it. I said I don't like it. I happen to believe it IS a sign of oppression of women. That is my right. I can believe anything I want. I have not attacked you for having a different opinon. Why are you attacking me for my opinion?

And how can you possible compare being a Punk to wearing a Burqa? They are as opposite as they can be. I know this because I was a hard-core punk for many years. Dressing as a punk, is a form of self-expression, and is often a rebellion against society. I feel lucky that I live somewhere that I could express myself in that way. Wearing a Burqa is the opposite of freedom of expression. It is absolutely a form of oppression, IN MY OPINION. I believe the women that wear them don't know any better. I believe that they have no choice, and that many of them would not be allowed to leave their homes at all if they were not wearing one. I also believe that it is not stated anywhere in the Qur'an that a woman should wear a Burqa. I think that it is an extreme interpretation of modesty, and is done for the benefit of the men, and to the detriment of women. And as I stated previously, I do not like any form of religious extremism, which this cleary is, to me.

By the way, if one of my friends decided that they had to wear a Burqa, I would respect that choice. I am fairly certain that it is a most unlikely possiblity that any of them would ever make such a decision.

They want you to believe it is. Like they want you to believe that it is always the women choice.

It's not.

In every single case? You honestly believe that it's never possible for a woman to choose?
You know, if I was female i'd wear the burqa myself specifically just to protest against idiocy like this.

I said the want you to believe it's ALWAYS the women choice.

It's the same thing jehovah witness did in bulgary whe the gouvernment wanted to pass a law saying they were a cult and not a religion because they force people to reject blood transfusion. They said we dont force people to refuse anymore. They said that people who would be doing it would not be disfellowship anymore. In fact, they kept disfellowshipping them, saying if someone accept blood, they remove themself from the herd. It's not us that remove them. In french we have a expression for that. I'ts blanc bonnet-bonnet blanc. Closest you guys have in english is patatoes, potatoes.

The Burqua situation is exactly the same. They say women have a right to choose, but if they dont make the right choice, they will be punished in most case.


Read carefully before calling someone argument an idiocy

Then i followed up with

I agree that they should be allowed to wear them. I don't think it's very likely that it is a fashion statement, but it is their right to dress how they want. It is legal here in the U.S., and I don't think that is going to change. But I am getting the impression that our Muslim population is a much smaller ratio than European countries. If that were to change, then I wouldn't be surprised if someone would try to pass a law against the Burqa.

I am wondering if anybody at all on here personally knows a woman who wears the Burqa? And when I work next time with one of my Muslim friends, especially the one I have know longest, who is an ER Physician, I am going to ask him how he feels about the Burqa. He is very involved in the local Muslim community. He just started a program where he acting as a Liason between the Muslim community, and Law Enforcement (He is the physician for our local SWAT team, and is going to go through a Police Academy soon. He be one the few people who are an M.D. and a Police officer). I'll let you know what he said.

If this remark is directed at me, you are incorrect. I don't think they should go back to where they came from. But I do find it strange that they expect their new country to conform to their culture, instead of the other way around.  And I also think that those of you who live in Europe, are having a completely different experience than those of us who live in the US. I know there are some areas here with high Muslim concentrations, but there are not many of them. I know of one person that I believe is probably from Pakistan. ONE. So you see, it's sort of a non-issue here at the moment.

Just wanting to wear the burqa is NOT expecting the country they're in to change to suit them, it's simply choosing for themselves what to wear.
I'm wearing a novelty t-shirt right now that advertises to the world my love for the GPL (the license linux is under): am I by merely wearing it expecting everyone in my country to conform to my love of the GPL? Or am I merely expressing myself?

Yes there's very bad aspects of islam, but muslim women wearing the burqa of their own free will is NOT something to be clamped down on, and I suspect that people who are opposed to the burqa more often do so out of hatred of islam than they do out of concern for women's rights - otherwise why be so offended when women choose to wear it themselves?

On this we agree. However, what they choose to wear isn't the problem is it?
Of course where women truly are forced to wear the burqa then i'm completely opposed to that, but most of the outcry against burqa bans come from muslim women - not men, women.

If a woman is truly choosing to wear a Burqa, then she should be able to wear it. And I do not have any problem with Islam, only with extremists. It the same for me in regards to any religion. I do not have problem with Christianity, only with extremist Christians. To me, the Burqa is a physical representation of extremism. There are many, many, Muslim women who do not wear a Burqa or a full veil. That is because it is their interpretation of modesty is different. I have the same issue with some Fundamentalist Christians, whose interpretation of the Bible does not seem to me to have much to do with what is really written there. I find it to be disturbing when people interpret a holy book, whichever it might be, to suit their purposes. I think Christians and Muslims both do this. I think extremists of any religion are dangerous, and I am always particularly concernced that people like that will gain power, and try to make everyone conform to their twisted ideals. Extremism is a scary thing to me.