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The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-30-2010 09:26 AM
IF..and ONLY IF, you are wrong...you owe more than the utterances of apology. You have drawn first blood. You must expect them to be angry..of course, in appropriate relation to the offense. You allow that. You correct the offense...and, this is important...you pay back..with interest.
Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right (be assertive...fight the good fight...the honorable one). If someone tries to make you apologize for something they had done, they are seeking dominance and should you cave in...the short term effect may be one of "peace"...but the long term effect is one of no self respect and thereafter, getting no respect from them. It will increase to no end. If you know you are right...and can show the other person objectively and convincingly...that they are wrong...THEY are being stubborn...they will seek to impose their will upon you...knowing you will cave. You will have sold your soul to the devil...and shall live your life in hell so long as they are in your life.
Apologize correctly and you have the right to expect it in return. With this, and only with this...progress can be made.
Thoughts on this?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 08-30-2010 10:08 AM
Well, it's made more complicated by 'the way it's said'. There, you can be 'right' in WHAT you said and 'wrong' in the WAY. Only it's almost never possible for me to find what 'way' people are talking about. And it's not even agreed that I'd know what way I meant to say anything.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shnoing - 08-30-2010 11:33 AM
Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right ...
Thoughts on this?
Usually there's more than one view on any topic. So ... I think your advice(?) is ... incomplete.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Bloke - 08-30-2010 11:52 AM
I once more see my values echo'ed back at me.
I teach my kids that if they do the wrong thing then acknowledge the wrong, apologise, seek to right the wrong, make a concerted effort not to do it in future.
It is so simple. I take the same line myself. IF I am wrong and see it as such I will not shirk from it.
If I am right then I will fight tooth and nail. If someone seeks to dominate or beat me down I will fight it.
The whole concept of "people in authority" holding more sway or dominance, I have never appreciated or understood. Right is right and wrong is wrong and to minimise this minimises us, ultimately.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 08-30-2010 12:32 PM
You can't apologise sincerely to someone you're playing, and crazy people, particularly ones in positions of authority, need to be played. Last two years I've learned how to play everyday crazy people, telling them what they want to hear, apologising not where necessary but where they believe is necessary. It means there's no respect between you but if you do it right you have the power. I'm not certain I see another way of dealing with them, unless you don't mind getting fired by most idiots. Your way is purer, Shiroi, but less practical.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-30-2010 02:01 PM
Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right ...
Thoughts on this?
Usually there's more than one view on any topic. So ... I think your advice(?) is ... incomplete.
That is why the emphasis on KNOW. And don't forget the rest of the thread...if you can show them objectively and convincingly they are wrong.
This is also a general rule....not a golden one...if in doing so...you risk the long term...your job...just document and don't insist....take it up at another time...preferably after you have found another job. 
What kind of job would consist of you taking someone else's blame? Perhaps you may have to keep quiet at the moment...but you would be foolish to not document and save evidence....anything worth hiding by the uppers is worth being able to prove your innocence later. You may otherwise find out you have been played for a patsy.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-30-2010 02:04 PM
I teach my kids that if they do the wrong thing then acknowledge the wrong, apologise, seek to right the wrong, make a concerted effort not to do it in future.
It is so simple. I take the same line myself. IF I am wrong and see it as such I will not shirk from it.
If I am right then I will fight tooth and nail. If someone seeks to dominate or beat me down I will fight it.
The whole concept of "people in authority" holding more sway or dominance, I have never appreciated or understood. Right is right and wrong is wrong and to minimise this minimises us, ultimately.
Yes...and if more parents taught this....can you imagine how people would relate to one another...with fairness. Knowing they would be called on it...they would be far more careful in the first place.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Bloke - 08-30-2010 02:11 PM
Absolutely.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - skyblue1 - 08-30-2010 02:38 PM
@ OP On the internet that philosophy would lead to flame wars , if disagreeing parties refuse to back down and agree to disagree.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-30-2010 02:53 PM
In an objective argument...one where right and wrong can be established...it is through mutual cowardice that both "agree to disagree". It is allowing the status quo...which the incorrect party counts on in the first place....just place a big enough threat and everyone must back down...because in their minds...to win..or at least to not lose...is far more important than what is right.
For the person who is right, to abdicate moral correctness is to desert all those whom are dependent upon the situation changing. Just for the argument to use as a future reference in their defense. It also demonstrates to those who seek to profit from wrong...that they have a much better chance of getting away with it...because no one is there to challenge them and their deception...greed...evil.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-30-2010 03:15 PM
First..you've got to know the difference between right and wrong. Don't do wrong...you will have nothing to apologize for. Just concentrate on being right.
Try not to speak...try to show through your actions.
That is why in certain religious sects...there is a code of silence...it is to force the initiates to do good...not merely think and say it. Most concentrate on memorizing texts of information...it is in the application that is of importance...and the true effort and sacrifice.
DO good acts in life...and you will have lived life well.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 08-30-2010 05:11 PM
Um. Since you're saying that, you can't be saying that all talk is 'wrong'. Take that away and there is no 'right' to do, anyway. Then, the 'way' applies to actions. So, if it's relevant in anything I say, it is also in what I do. How many times the supposed difference is some part of the 'way'! Which version of morality are you talking about?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-30-2010 06:17 PM
Please understand that I am an atheist...I have no theism....it is false that only religious people are moral...or that they have even the appropriate morals.
What is right for you is also what is right for all...we are talking about basic good and evil...right and wrong.
EX.: For humans...to take unjustifiably...anything from another that is rightfully his...is wrong. This includes life.
I can go into great detail into the essence of right and wrong and good and evil...perhaps this Wed or Thurs night. It is a basic moral, I had incorrectly thought, everyone had known.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 08-30-2010 06:30 PM
I don't think there's much argument about the part you mention. Problem being the rest! It's as indisputable in any discussion that I've been in that, for most stuff, it's far more the 'way' it's said or done. As in, you could take food out to the homeless with the genuine desire to help them or to try to manipulate them, for an eg. I'm sure there are plenty more. And that's where any good I tried to do goes wrong! Then, suddenly, the whole thing collapses.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-31-2010 09:50 AM
There will always be people, who because of their displeasure in the place in life they are, will try to bring others down...so as to not feel so low in comparison to others. They are not to be your concern.
Think and move in a simple manner. Try to limit any unnecessary movement in motion....and any unnecessary words in speaking. Limit the volume and intonations. Try to be humble in every way...keep a pure heart and purpose...do these things...and it will be their fault...and not yours.
Worry about building yourself...there will be those that attempt sabotage...they can only become successful if you allow them.
Think of ways to improve yourself and your situation in life...those should be your goals. Cut out the unnecessary drains on your time and energy. Work on you. That is your path.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 08-31-2010 10:43 AM
Inevitably, I can't tell that the people to whom I refer are like you say. I'd have to assume it was real offense, that I didn't intend. But nobody around here will agree I'd know. So, can't have any relationships with them. Better not get into all that is claimed about humility!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-31-2010 01:45 PM
Now...I ask this out of ignorance...is it difficult for you to understand commonly repeated motions? A smile upon a greeting usually means friendliness...or an outstretched hand at a greeting usually means they wish to shake your hand?
If so...stick to the basics. Develop common greeting skills by rote if need be. I try to just raise my hand in a greeting with raised eyebrows...it is universal. It applies to almost all circumstances. Should they then extend their hand...shake it. Allow them to initiate the handshake...it will be safe that way...try to build other universal skills that are safe to use in many cases with a back up reaction should it become warranted.
Build coping skills...seek a specialist in that area...you will feel a lot more comfortable.
Another safe way is to be reserved...let others initiate contact. Be a good listener.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Bloke - 08-31-2010 02:14 PM
That is one thing I have found. Allow people to run their mouths and nod appreciatively
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 08-31-2010 02:26 PM
Yes...people have often commented how they liked our "conversation" when I do that....they, of course, don't realize that it was they who had done all the talking. 
A good listener is very appreciated. At times I realized that I would have gone off on a tangent had I commented before having heard the full story...it was only by listening fully first that I had gotten the correct thrust of their "verbal thread".
Too bad I don't do it so often as I should...
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 08-31-2010 04:18 PM
Don't think I've too much difficulty with shaking hands, thanks. There's not really any specialists where I live. And, supposedly, not enough funding for a support worker to socialise with me. As it'd be weekends and evenings mostly. The original post seems to assume you do know if, say, you had meant to upset or offend somebody. That is the part which, strangely, isn't agreed. Although it's clear that anybody else does believe they'd know for themselves.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - SPQR - 09-01-2010 12:53 PM
As an aspie, I have learned to never appoligize for anything.
99.999% of the time it is just a "social game" as you said and
they are just trying to put you down.
NT's are always "pushing" to test people and with NT's they see
no "defences" so they think you are a push over.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-01-2010 05:02 PM
Ask them to explain their displeasure. Explain how you had meant it...that it was not meant to offend.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-01-2010 05:10 PM
Yes, I did. As I said, it is not agreed that I'd know what 'way' I meant it, anymore. The usual 'explanation' was only 'it's the WAY it's said'. Even when it was possible to get any more 'explanation', it didn't get anywhere. As it was claimed I knew what way, generally. Or it was convoluted circles of 'explanation'. I carried on as long as it was agreed I'd know what way I meant stuff. Won't do it otherwise.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-01-2010 05:19 PM
OK...not a way of thinking....ask them specifically...which words or phrase upset them. Give your meaning for saying it or them. Ask them how they would phrase what you meant.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-01-2010 05:51 PM
Um, when I did ask them, they said it 'isn't WHAT you said, it's the WAY.' That claimed to be some sort of attitude or motive. Rephrasing isn't changing those! The point will only be about whether or not I'm to believe I'd know about those. When that was agreed, there was hope of finding out how it came out wrong or came across badly. With that gone, there's no way to address those as it's claimed to be some way I do mean stuff. While it's clear anybody else must and does believe they do know what way they do mean stuff.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-01-2010 05:58 PM
If they believe they know how it was the WAY you had said it...they could verbalize their belief....they could say it was the intonation...the choice of words....the volume...the facial or body gestures. Ask them for a correct way of saying.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-01-2010 06:09 PM
Huh? I've said what answers were given to the question. To do as you suggest still requires the believe you can tell bit, which is what is disputed now. They've abandoned the basis they need to claim they can tell my attitudes and motives! I never asked to be able to judge theirs. 'God doesn't have favorites' means faith has to mean the same for everybody. It's clear it has to be the one where you know your own attitudes and motives. Probably takes somebody far cleverer than I to either explain that or change it.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-01-2010 06:21 PM
It is very difficult for NTs to know the true motives of some one else. The truest method is over the long term....their actions...or inactions tell truly what their true intent was.
For someone to say what you were thinking is difficult for anyone. Just worry about practical aspects of people...are there actions reasonable? Would you have done it that way? Would their actions lead to immoral results? Would harm come from it? Is there a better way? Think practical aspects of actions or inactions....trying to divine motives is very inaccurate in many cases...it cannot be relied on in any case.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-01-2010 06:49 PM
Well, it kept coming up! So, it isn't agreed that they can't tell mine. Although it should be much more reasonable to think you know your own. Your option isn't available, with those people. Unless you're going to accompany me? I'm not spending time with them if that issue can't be sorted out. As said, it's clear what they must practice in that.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-01-2010 07:02 PM
Sometimes one can tell motives...but not always. Many don't know their own motives....we are driven by our subconscious also. They realize what they had done....just not necessarily why....especially when it was a hasty act.
For someone to attribute evil motives to you when you know they were not...is strange. Now...someone telling you the way you had done something doesn't mean they were divining motives...they were telling you of your actions.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-01-2010 07:16 PM
Well, attitudes, motives, feelings, whatever. The point will remain that most people do believe they do know theirs, most of the time. It's one thing when somebody says, 'you seem anxious' and you know you are a bit worried about something. Or even if you weren't aware of it before but you agree or later decide you were, after all. That's all consistent with the point in question. None of that requires changing that. If anything, it all supports it.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-01-2010 07:28 PM
This thread doesn't apply to motives....but incorrect actions....even if you had done something of a noble motive....if your actions caused harm...you would apologize.
Now with this....I must go to bed...I will answer more in about 13 1/2 hrs. Thank you again for your conversation and questions....you have kept me busy....see you.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-01-2010 07:36 PM
It'd have to be by mistake. That'd be fine in areas where the 'harm' or 'good' was clear and could be seen. Mostly, in the area in question, of course, it isn't. I mean, if I bumped into somebody, I'd know I'd done it and could say sorry. They'd probably accept it was an accident and that'd be the end of it. Thank you for the discussion, too!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 10:42 AM
There are people who do evil....they purposely do harm...frequently to elicit a reaction from the aggrieved that the perpetrator could point to publicly to gain political advantage in some manner.
Is this what you mean?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 11:03 AM
No, where did that get in? Until and unless it becomes clear people are playing such games, I've no way to know.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 11:09 AM
So you have a hard time understanding your own motives? You think others have a hard time understanding theirs? You wonder how a person can tell if there actions are right or wrong?
I am sorry...I still don't understand what you are asking...or are you? Are you making a generalized statement?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 11:36 AM
In the area we were discussing, there's only claims and other claims. You'd know if you bumped into somebody, even by mistake. It'd probably be accepted you hadn't meant to. It would definitely not be called arrogant to think you'd know if you'd done that deliberately or not. In your egs, the people would know what they were doing, too.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 11:53 AM
No, definitely not. We are talking actions and results....cause and effect....these are in the realm of the Objective...not the Subjective.
If, through your actions or inactions...regardless of motive....you cause a loss to another...you apologize.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 12:05 PM
Unfortunately, in the other area, the connection isn't as clear. I can say sorry for bumping into somebody because I can tell I've done it and I can expect them to accept my statement that I didn't mean to. The idea of an apology used to be that you'd at least try not to do whatever it was again. If I've not really any idea what I did, I thus can't, really, apologise. If it's about some 'way', I must, as was always told, be able to tell that, say, I was arrogant, etc. Back to the problem. It is not agreed that I'd know. Yet the people that claim it's arrogant for me clearly have to think they can tell theirs. It's incredible how much more complicated this gets when I discuss it than it ever was in practice.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 12:39 PM
OK...you are saying...as an example...when you do things that you hadn't realized you had done ...you can't apologize for it? If so...you could say that you were unaware that you had done such a thing.
Part of personal responsibility is being aware of your surroundings. Although you may do something that you were unaware of....there is usually evidence of it. To walk down an isle and there was nothing on the isle floor at first....then you hear a crash behind you as you walked by....just because you hadn't felt brushing up against it....perhaps your cart or bag had tugged at it......perhaps the item was stacked in an unstable fashion....however...part of being aware is to notice those types of things ahead of time (noticing a lack of symmetry) - it ties into basic survival...you must notice unstable structures before getting into harm's way.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 12:53 PM
Well, in your eg, again, there'd be clear evidence. If I give up believing I know my own motives, etc, I don't see the basis for believing others know theirs. I never claimed to be able to judge others in such ways. If question raised, how'd I know motives of person teaching how to tell what people's motives are? That'd be impossible for me as I'd be responsible for choosing the teacher and would thus need to be able to tell their motives, which I can't. Besides, for nearly 30 years, it was clearly and simply agreed that every one had to believe they did know their motives, etc. Am I really to wonder what, say, your motives are, then? How resolve that, as I can't tell and, apparently, neither can you? Who can? How would you or I know? Raises far more questions than it can even claim to answer!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 01:04 PM
No...people generally know their motives...that is how they generally know others' motives....it just is not certain. A person's motive can be elusive....especially when they wish it to be. Take statements at face value....take actions at face value....judge Objectively. Look at your history with them....are they usually coarse?....their motive doesn't matter...you don't want to be around them anyway.
Don't try to divine a person's motive...especially in life around those in which contact is extremely limited already. Judge by the action. If it is a wrong action...a correct apology is in order...regardless of motive. Never mind motives...you can never fully realize motives....actions...especially over the long term tells of true motives....it can't be simpler than that. That is why talk is considered cheap.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 01:10 PM
Well, that needs people who agree with your approach. In that case, there'd be no problem as they'd not be continually judging my motives, etc. Only there is such a problem. So, those people don't agree with your approach! Oh, well. As soon as I can empty my mind of EVERYTHING...!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 01:18 PM
You cannot go through life expecting all around you to be a good person....there is evil out there....evil people with evil desires. You should always prepare yourself to be able handle situations...if anything...just by being able to ignore someone safely...
Build your body through strength training. Just by having a strong body....people will tend not to be rude in the first place. There will also be an air of confidence about you that others respect. I teach my son strength training for just such a purpose...besides it becoming a passion in life....and teaching him many positive lessons in life.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 01:22 PM
Don't care. For 30 years, the point in question was agreed by everybody that expressed an opinion. Before church and there. That is all. Don't know what happened to it.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 01:29 PM
What do you not are about? I know societal mores have changed....In the 1960's I thought everyone was so much more friendly...and everyone got along so much more. There was an air of community and of honor.
There are others who believe as you. Perhaps you could try another church? Perhaps something else?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 01:41 PM
Do need a church as a Christian. Problem there'd be the claim it's 'timeless truths'. Can't actually change what the Bible does say. It's supposed to still be based on that and only changing methods of communicating that, showing how it is still relevant. Not changing what it does say. And it does cover motives, etc, with the love your neighbour bit. Doesn't seem to be a church around here that agrees that, strangely.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 01:53 PM
As I am not religious...and I have never been to a church...I cannot reply to that with any real knowledge....however...as a generalized statement...where there is hypocrisy...there is no truth...or the real truth is not being adhered to....incorrect path or pathfinder....time to either seek a different path....or a different pathfinder.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 02:05 PM
It's funny, any church would be clear on hypocrisy. Until it's this area.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 02:08 PM
Well, it seems you have a decision to make. Life is too short to waste time.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 02:22 PM
Can't make people see what they either can't or won't see! Whether it is waste of time or not depends whether it does matter. Claims can be made either way, of course.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 02:31 PM
So...is there another church you could go to?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 02:35 PM
Think we covered that. Probably need a bit of help making these points at them. It's so much more difficult in 'real' life. Seems there's not enough funding for such help around here, though.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 02:41 PM
Well...you said that there didn't seem to be another church in the area that would fit you.....have you tried?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 02:50 PM
I asked several, as I said! Don't know which bit of what I've said doesn't make sense. Or isn't conveying anything like enough of what it should.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 02:57 PM
I don't see how asking would answer your true question....if the people PRACTICE true faith. That I would presume would entail going and trying...wouldn't it?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 03:07 PM
Why would they say they practiced the opposite of what they do? That'd be lying! If I'm to try anything involving motives, etc, I'll still have to think I do know what mine are. Remembering that's the dispute. I wish one of them would come here to post it themselves. They could accuse you of all sorts, as that's how it's done around here. It may be 'complicating' or 'arrogant' or any number of others.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 03:18 PM
Again...you are concentrating on motives...which are so difficult to divine truly. DO correctly....that is what is important...your pure motives will reveal themselves. That is all...never mind the mind....DO the correct action....time and again.....correct results....that is what the world is concerned with....and rightfully so...and so should you.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 03:24 PM
No, I'm going by WHAT they say about it. No judgement of their motives required. Where did I say anything about judging anybody else's motives, etc? It'd make most of WHAT I was told WRONG, you see. The vital 'difference' between similar actions was some 'way' it was done. Both when praised and criticised. ALWAYS. Beyond academic tests, that'd be. Needs one such person here to tell you about it.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Bloke - 09-02-2010 03:34 PM
Personal perspective is always that. My values and mores are different to Shiroi Tora. I would not pretend that they would be the same but there is much of what he says which rings very true for me. IF he took a stance I did not agree with I would not doubt me. Regardless of whether I respected him or agreed with a lot of what he says. There is no universal truths.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 03:40 PM
Wow, try telling a scientist or philosopher that one! Or, indeed, anybody else. The one statement that definitely can't be true is the one claiming there is no truth.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 03:52 PM
I cannot answer that which you will not elaborate on. I have no idea to what you are referring. I don't know what you have been told....why you think it is different now...what "they" are telling you.
You seem to be stuck on a pattern of circular logic. If the initial premise is incorrect....nothing else in the argument matters. You are not telling the premise....you are not saying the argument...in detail.
You seem to be caught up in what others think about you....by what they say....you simply cannot live life that way....I cannot say this enough....know the difference between right and wrong....DO right.
You must worry about you....how well you do....not how others perceive you...unless you are doing something wrong.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 03:57 PM
But that's the catch here. Sorry it's not clear. It might as well claim I don't know right from wrong, anyway. I'm not sure you present the case for yours from the start, either.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 03:59 PM
I assumed that people knew...I was going to elaborate...you said you understood and that it was a different issue. I never presumed to present it at the beginning. Most know...it is in the practice that they fall short.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 04:09 PM
Well, I thought so but then it doesn't cover what I'm still on about. The 'just do it' NEVER applied when I did stuff. If to do this 'don't care what people think' routine, that'd apply to ALL and that includes you, as a person. I won't build any relationships that way. So, I won't socialise. It all falls rather rapidly apart, that way. Anyway, the difficulty will be sorting out the truth in relation to this stuff.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Genesis - 09-02-2010 04:17 PM
First off don't randomly apologize over something that happened months ago when it was already resolved.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 04:28 PM
When I said to not care about what people thought of you...or said...it was in the context of not letting what others say or do make you feel bad about yourself. Don't make them powerful enough that they could alter your positive actions...that which is best for your life....while not negatively effecting the rights of others... just by what they say.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 04:47 PM
Um. You'd need to have this argument with the 'it's all about attitudes' people. I can't do it. Without what was said about it, I've no idea what 'positive' would mean. You can't answer without saying something, so that'll be the end of that.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 05:01 PM
Positive actions....actions which move you toward your goal.
Actions could be negative...something that would limit or hinder your reaching your goals....or destructive....which would prevent you from ever reaching your goal.
It simply means that..nothing deep about it. Simply that.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 05:06 PM
So, everybody was LYING for 30 odd years? My parents? Counsellors? Psychologists? All the books on 'positive thinking'? Or they were all wrong. But there's no reason to trust you're right and they are ALL wrong!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 05:10 PM
I said positive actions...not positive thoughts...although it couldn't be too much off the mark. Please tell me what they had said about positive actions....I'll bet you merely misunderstood what they had said. Please try me.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 05:18 PM
Um, it depends on attitudes? As I said. Otherwise, there's too many egs of things that should be the same. Which aren't treated that way. Like the difference between genuine concern and anxiety. Between caring for others and other feelings. Between emotionalism and passionate. Thousands of such things. And the simple statement 'it's ALL about attitudes'. It was as clear as what you say....
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 05:37 PM
If what was said was about attitudes being the most important....then hogwash....it is about correct results. You get correct results by following a correct...efficient...economical plan. Now...it is easiest to see the way forward...and to follow a correct plan with a good attitude...but it is not necessary. I say this...because....to many people think that to merely think correctly...that something magical is going to happen to them....Karma...Luck...Others shall reward them....etc.
The attitude makes it natural finding the right path...makes it easier to follow that path....but it doesn't do a thing without the positive action portion....that is what establishes results. Some do it for external rewards....money...a powerful motivator...some out of any number of reasons...the important thing is achieving the desired RESULT.
Attitude is important...I don't mean otherwise....however, it is worthless unless that attitude drives you into positive action.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 06:16 PM
Well, that's how it was claimed you decide between 'positive' and 'negative' actions! Where we're not talking clear stuff, of course. There's not much debate about whether I should or shouldn't commit crimes. Or be, deliberately, rude. There'd be too many egs of what I'm on about. I can't simply dismiss it all as 'hogwash'. You won't have to have the argument or ignore the people I'd have to deal with.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-02-2010 06:43 PM
No...it wasn't about not committing crimes. Say...a negative action....getting mad and telling your boss that you quit one day. Your goal was to stay in the job so you could afford a school where you could learn a better trade...without the job...your whole plan unravels.
The only hogwash part was the positive attitude ONLY...or it being the single most important part. The positive action is.....that is all...nothing else.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-02-2010 06:56 PM
OK. Well, for the stuff I'm talking about, the claims remain the same. 'Everybody knows...' can be attached to those, too. Without it, there's still too much that can both be called good OR bad. Forgetting all the 'attitude' stuff, there is NO difference. Besides, different doesn't mean good or bad, on it's own. How forget ALL that? SO many egs but I won't remember enough details to relate them, because there's SO many.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 10:37 AM
I don't understand....why would you have to forget anything? In martial arts...you learn through doing. In weight training....you learn by doing. In running long distance....you learn by doing. See a pattern here? You learn by DOING.
There is no need to forget or to remember anything.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 10:53 AM
In competitions, there are rules, aren't there? There's even different ways to lift weights, I believe. So, it isn't JUST about lifting them! You'd be disqualified from a competition if you break their rules. Same with what I'm on about. For the years of 'doing it' I did, which evidently didn't work. All my life, it has been about all that other stuff. Which we're not getting anywhere with.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 11:09 AM
We are not talking competition...it is there for those wanting it....the real benefits and learning take place in the daily practice. Everything is done in small steps. Done daily, it becomes a part of your life. There is no thought...just the action...in that...the real learning takes place.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 11:17 AM
I'm not into weights, it was an eg. It'd have to be forget all I was told. As was and was and was! In REAL life. Sorry you don't know what I'm on about.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 11:31 AM
I don't understand the term "eg".
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 11:36 AM
Example. Standard abbreviation. Perhaps that's why you're not familiar with what I'm on about the rest of the time, too?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 11:46 AM
"For the sake of example"or "example given" ...no...I got the thrust of what you were saying by context.
Please explain to me why you would HAVE to forget everything you were told.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 11:49 AM
Because it tied actions to attitudes, etc. Time and time and time again. As I've said! And said, and said, and said.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 12:07 PM
NO....The actions are pure...your attitude will form from the daily practice of (e.g.....) marital arts. You will come to realize a whole new attitude from your growth in your discipline....from the great surge in energy and mental acuity from being in top shape. You will realize, through hard, and ultimately, cleansing training...the beauty of deferred gratification...the great rewards of step by step progress toward a goal. The ancillary effects of daily training...the capability of overcoming the great hurdles that we, as human beings, set before ourselves....procrastination...laziness...fear...fatigue...etc.
To get the most out of the training...you go there without preconceived notions...you just do. You WILL learn more about yourself...and so others, through your training.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 12:10 PM
It'd be like ignoring results, while claiming that's what it's about! Sadly, it's not like anything academically or in work places, where you can be shown how to do it. Where any mistakes can be pointed out and you can see where you went wrong. Yet for most stuff, it's been more important than all of that. Precisely because the other stuff can be learned and dealt with much more easily.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 12:28 PM
Martial Arts...is the epitome of the learning process. You start out with...and you drill repeatedly...the basics. You are shown...through correction....example...and simply through doing...that which you must know. It is a meritocracy...you advance at your speed of learning...not through social passing...at least in the true training halls.
Your mistakes become glaringly obvious at the moment. Your instructor is right there to correct. You will do the same motions hundreds...even thousands of times...you cannot help but learn. My son is going 4 times a week to one nearby where we live. On Wed and Sat...he power lifts. Sun he has a trampoline in the backyard that he likes to use...any other day at will also. All of the other days, he practices Karate. He is an Aspie...he loves it and looks forward to going...and he is learning much from it.
Taking the easy path is frequently the wrong path...take the correct path regardless of ease.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 12:40 PM
Sure. We're not really talking about martial arts, though. We were talking about socialising. What point is there to that any more, then? Used to be for conversations. Used to be a basic part of respect that you listen to others. But now I'm to ignore most of what's said. Don't see why bother socialising, in that case.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 01:13 PM
Your life doesn't revolve around socialization. Through Martial Arts...you will get to know yourself...and so others. Martial Arts revolve around respect. I have spent most of my life training in various Martial Arts halls. I had started fairly early in life and it had steered me on to an inner journey...one that had kept me on a moral and correct life. It is through that journey that I had learned so much about myself and so...others. We are so similar (humans) in so many respects. That is why the more you know about yourself...the more you know of others....the basic drives. I had learned to love life through my training. It was a VERY vigorous Dojo (training hall). I left each training day...half dead from fatigue...but thoroughly cleansed...in mind and body. You deal with extreme fatigue...fear...your own inner demons that scream out to quit or to just glide through life. In persevering...you learn the most important lesson....to never quit. Most people have a lower threshold of pain...fatigue...energy. You learn to extend those to levels that most never achieve outside of higher levels of sports.
You will...upon recovery...emerge not only stronger...but relaxed....many of your anxieties will go by the wayside....you will have gone through so much in your training as to give you a sense of awareness....and control. I used to have many neurological problems in my youth...in one of my other threads...I go over them.
I know you could gain such a sense of achievement...inner calm...focus...optimism (much of life won't be so difficult as your training...as you will have already conquered that in you training...life seems to be a breeze...and so enjoyable)...you will then be able to enjoy the true beauty all around you. Although you don't talk much in training...you still feel a sense of camaraderie with the others there since you are partaking the same journey. Through deadly serious training...you will meet some great people...through diligence, you will EARN their respect and your own self respect. You will meet others who share a passion the same as yours...they can be the best friends you will ever have. You will eventually get to the level of being able to guide others.
You will learn self mastery. Your goal is to be able to handle any situation in life that occurs with a calm heart and mind. You will learn so much in life...through your training....you will look forward to everything in it. You will simply learn to love life.
Simply go and do. Never quit...you may progress slowly...you will feel...at times...extreme pain...fear...fatigue...and you will learn to welcome it...as that is what forces growth. You will have the self knowledge that will make you feel a titan among mere mortals...because you will know that most in life never experience what you will have gone through.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - M - 09-03-2010 01:32 PM
I have found it better to avoid people who demand apologies. If I freely apologize, okay but I expect that it should be reciprocated. I find saying sorry and even some action to show it has little effect on some people. They see me as just a bad person and useless. It becomes their vendetta to punish me and "teach me a lesson". No matter how hard I try, I am always wrong or need to learn to them. It is just a power thing. They are not being kind. They tell me that I always make mistakes and keep a running list of history and push until I go away. They try to alienate me from others. The others do not seem to realize that when I am gone, they will be the next victim.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 01:42 PM
Yes...and you don't want to be one of them...it is one thing to expect and to demand. An apology must come from the heart to be sincere. I quietly expect an apology...but I don't demand.
There are those who wish to destroy...when you apologize correctly...you are not one of those whom you don't wish to be. You will eventually get respect from the respectable...they will see a morally correct person.
The persons you speak of are not the ones you wish to be around...the same with those who simply believe...blindly...the words of others.
So long as you sincerely try to correct your errors and take measures to ensure you won't make them in the future...it is neither your guilt nor your concern. Focus on doing correctly...don't allow what others think of you to make you feel bad. Through consistently correct actions...the others who are good will soon be attracted to you.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 02:35 PM
Ignoring most of what I've been told about what doing 'correctly' means? Best not go through all claimed about 'respect' and 'self respect', either. Getting a job was supposed to give me self esteem and make others respect me more. It did neither. As I can't do the judging required for others to earn my respect, I can't agree with that system. So it goes on, and on and on!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 03:06 PM
You get more respect now than had you not gotten a job in the first place. There will always be some who show disrespect to others.
Lets see...you are going to continue with that which is not working....because why?
And I gave personal experience in what worked for me...and countless others...and is working with my Aspie son...and you don't agree with it because...?
It has nothing with you judging...just you doing.
IT goes on and on...because YOU refuse to DO otherwise. I gave you an option...a very valid one. YOU can make it not go on and on. YOU must do it...try it...for yourself.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 04:03 PM
It does if, suddenly, everybody doesn't get equal respect for being human. In work, nobody said much about attitude. It's socially! There, it might as well be what respect means. And you can't expect it if you don't show it. Only then it's not hearing most of what IS said about that. Not like your martial arts. There, isn't it one instructor? They can show you exactly what to do. There's not usually much debate about it. Socially, there's no one person in charge. It can't be demo what they're on about. Yet if you can't do it, nothing else matters. You'd have to have the disputes about it with the people I've met!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 04:10 PM
In Martial Arts...you learn how to act with respect. You earn respect when you act respectably.
What is it you do at work exactly? Why the absolute need to socialize?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 04:12 PM
Bruce, you want the secret? Act like you know. That's all anyone does.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 04:20 PM
Good for them. No idea what that'd mean, as no idea what I'd know. Just want a few friends.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 04:44 PM
You're looking for the answers. There are no answers. You'll attract people if you seem like you know what's going on, because they don't know either. Get it?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 04:54 PM
No way for me to know that's true. Doesn't tell me what to do if it is. Not consistent with anything anybody else ever said about it. No way to know they're lying or wrong or whatever. Whatever works for you.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 05:08 PM
I purposely stayed out of the conversation...it was one Aspie to another.
I know that dtx was trying to be helpful....I personally don't believe being phony in anything in life is the right path. When unsure...I usually just listen...watch...and try to reason the situation out.
BruceCM...I really think that with proper guidance...you could realize far more in your life. You seem to not know, either what others are thinking...or their reasons for thinking such. I can't stress this enough....be true to yourself. I know....I know....you think that you can never know yourself.
You are on the outside and looking in....I say jump in...the water is fine.
My son was fortunate in that we started early with him. We have been working on his deficits...he is a VERY happy child. What matters most to me IS his happiness. We are doubly blessed (sorry...that is a religious term isn't it?)...in that he excels in so many areas.
I know by following what we have done for our son...that you may be helped also. You question because you are a good person...a concerned person....you have not quit trying. I really want to help you...you've got to take some of the steps though. Look to improve in the long term.
Please tell me what exactly you do at work....I may have some suggestions. I like all good people...you seem to be good. I like you...let me try to help. This doesn't mean that I would expect you to just unquestioningly do as I say....far from it. I expect you to have doubts....I just want you to try before discounting....to really give your all for a significant amount of time.
I talk this way to my Aspie son...he responds. I know you, too, can find happiness.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 05:11 PM
Yeah but you see your current thinking isn't helping. You need an external influence.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 05:18 PM
I've been listening to this for the past few hours. I love their energy, the coordinated movements...the way they work together....and the crowds reaction to them. They got there by following their passions....they never quit....they explored their talents...developed them. They are confident in their movements because they had relentlessly practiced them. The crowd knows of their commitment to their art...they love seeing that in others. They love the music...but they also see that they had followed their dreams...and that they are thoroughly enjoying what they do. It is so highly admirable to see that in any human being....this in itself gives others hope....they see before them...an example of what diligence does in lives.
Could It Be Magic - Take That - Wembley Stadium
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 05:20 PM
It's not about knowing myself. As far as I do know myself, most times, I can't identify the supposed 'attitude'. Presumably, because I didn't mean whatever it was I said the way it came across! As is supposed to be a problem area for Aspies. However, that's rather different from thinking I don't know what way I did mean to say those things, isn't it? It used to be agreed that you knew what way you did mean to say stuff. I can't socialise with people who won't agree that one point, sorry. That's the only bit I'm focused on. It's the common factor for the vast majority of the problems I come across. Only there's nobody where I live that will, now, agree. Conveniently, they're still supposed to believe they know what way they mean to say stuff, of course.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 05:38 PM
OK...there is a problem with what you want to say...and how it comes out? You are going by their reactions to what you say and possibly how you say it? Possibly the timing of it? Perhaps you are thinking on what they consider to be a tangent? They are probably misreading your attitude by your lack of body language and/or facial expressions?
There was this one inmate at work who answered in a very serious manner...his face was without expression...and he talked very matter of factly....I had misread his attitude. He later told me that he was in the spectrum....WOW...my son is on the spectrum and I had misread him....I have also been on the job for over 22 years. I still had gotten it wrong. Needless to say....I apologized to him for my reactions to what I had thought was a bad attitude. He graciously accepted it....I was thankful that he did....I had done him a grave disservice. I always try to be fair to all...and to give basic human respect to all as well.
Again...if you could be more specific...I think I could be of some help....from an NT's perspective.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 05:51 PM
Very tricky to be specific, as it's not usually possible to get much more guidance than already quoted. Problem being I'll get upset about the accusation and it seems to go downhill from there. Then, the person won't discuss it later because it upset me and, probably, them. And I don't know what bit of the body language, facial expressions or tone of voice led them to think whatever it was! Which is why I really need somebody who's there when it happens. Then, if they think I'm misunderstanding the other person, they can say what they think was meant. While the person is there to agree or disagree. And may be able to help me explain whatever I'm saying to them, etc. Only there's no such help available. The local AS support group lady claims 'positive is all about attitude', for instance. If you don't agree, she can't help you.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 05:53 PM
If your balls were big enough it would be other people's problem working out what you mean. Problem solved! Do you see me wondering who has the answers? I'm the most arrogant SOB and I've been involved with the most beautiful people in the world. Looking people in the eye still terrifies me but the symptoms aren't the problem, the problem is the ego that believes in the problems. This can be treated.
If you can't think your way out of a problem, try another approach. Right?
Or, Shiroi will give you tips for being understood.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 06:03 PM
If I don't care about other people, I don't want friends any more. Assuming I can manage to give up caring, that is. Then, of course, nothing stopping me going on a rape and murder spree! No, seriously.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 06:11 PM
You're looking for answers from people around you who are just better at hiding that they're looking for answers! Being NT doesn't mean they have authority on how you should relate to them. If you give them that authority they will abuse you - because they are NT not aspie. Mostly by leaving you confused, it seems.
You are letting yourself be abused.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-03-2010 06:12 PM
OK...I am also frequently misunderstood. I'll sometimes say something and the other person gets a strange look on his face. For those who know me...they automatically realize what it is I must have meant.
e.g....(I think I will use this more often 
) Sometimes someone will ask a very specific question ( Why did they do that?)...I would answer with a general statement and work my way back down to the specific...or leave it at that...thinking the specific answer would be perfectly obvious...(They have chosen the short term over the long). Of course, they could grasp the thrust of my meaning...but they would look at me and wonder why I had chosen those particular words. I would look at them with wonderment because I knew they knew the answer...I was amazed at why they had asked the question in the first place. Is your situation similar to this?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 06:14 PM
Uh huh. No way to know that. Thus, no way to avoid it, if it's true, without avoid all socialising at all. Won't make friends that way. Which is where I am now, ta.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 06:17 PM
Don't think so, as far as I can tell. If I'm just not specific enough, most people seemed able to ask about that. Said what is said about it, as much as I can. If you're confused by it, so am I. Only it's not directly affecting you!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 06:23 PM
Does it seem like the rules change as soon as you're working them out?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 06:32 PM
Why? That'd have to be a deliberate conspiracy, for what you seem to be saying. That gets ridiculous quickly as it'd involve people I've hardly met as well as knew fairly well, and parents, counsellors, etc.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 06:34 PM
Then if the rules don't change, why can't you work them out with trial and error?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 06:41 PM
Too many variables. Most of which I've no way to even guess. It's some part of the way stuff comes across but no idea which. Trial and error supposes I can really tell which is which. Apart from what said about it, no idea. Don't know why it works, when it does.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-03-2010 06:47 PM
Maybe. Most of us are good at learning through painful experience. Maybe you aren't being abused and you really do have some unique difficulty in interpreting information. Good luck with that.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-03-2010 06:52 PM
Ta. It's making the connections that gets difficult. Too many terms for the same thing. And too many different shades of meaning for each term....
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-04-2010 04:48 AM
May I ask this?.....When reading stories or factual books...do you have difficulty understanding them? Can you predict outcomes? Can you understand the outcomes once revealed to you?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 09:10 AM
Hmm. Predicting outcomes is tricky. I'd say I understand them, fairly well, in books. But that's very different from interacting with other people! Why?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-04-2010 10:31 AM
Because if you can understand the written word...the problem is between the hearing of them and the conceptualization of them...not a far more fundamental problem of the brain. I don't pretend to know about the biological aspects of Asperger's. You could effectively function as a deaf person....they adapt. A friend could communicate through general gestures. Details could be written out. In the meantime...you could work on your deficits through practice. One way would be to have simple meanings repeated with simple actions. Very few poly meanings. Simple words...simple actions...repeated over and over again....and you would get tremendous benefits in other areas too.....You must know where I am going with this.
Martial Arts...fundamental verbal commands linked to fundamental meanings. Actions expressed simply...words expressed simply...uncomplicated format. Martial Artists strive for simplicity in thought and motion...to simplify the complex and confusing...it is a way of life.....it is what would suit you so well...as it did me.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 09:10 PM
I'm glad it worked for you. As far as I do believe attitudes, motives, etc to be important, I still believe I can tell what mine are. Sorry, I'm not into martial arts and don't intend to take those up. The point I stick to isn't that complicated. I never said any other person didn't know their own attitudes, motives, etc. Ever. Not once. In my whole life. Get that? I'm 35 and just want a few friends. I'd like to be able to goto a church. That's not trying to convert anybody else. Without a bit of help for that, I'm really not motivated to do much else. Sorry, can't sweep aside all I've been told in favour of your approach. Mostly, very similar claims were made for what I've referred to, by the way.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 09:23 PM
Why don't you find someone who has worked out similar problems to you and copy their solution?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 09:26 PM
Who? Even most Aspies don't seem to know what I'm on about.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 09:27 PM
Maybe a specific example would help clarify. Could you write down some example dialogue that gets you in trouble?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 09:35 PM
The CLAIM was CLEARLY that it was not WHAT I said but the WAY I said it. EVERY time to which I refer, that much didn't change. I don't remember all the conversation now, sorry. Really think the advisor would have to be there. If it is any part of the non verbals, they'd have to be there to see them, from outside. As that's probably where most problems are!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 09:39 PM
I don't get why you think you have substantially different problems from the rest of us who struggle with conversation and making friends. Seems likely that your problems would be in the same domain as problems that many of us have experience with.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 10:02 PM
OK. Only I don't know what problems in that area you had! You, presumably, don't know quite where it's going wrong for me? Probably needs somebody there, to see the andy language, etc. Very difficult to cover that online.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 10:04 PM
Film yourself, post it online, get feedback. I once had the idea to film myself in everyday activity and then watch it myself, see how much I appeared how I expected to.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 10:26 PM
Thanks, that has been suggested before. Sorry, I can't afford a video camera. Then, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to have a normal conversation in front of one. As well as suspecting the other people would behave differently. Especially as I'd tell them why I was doing it. Have to have both me and them, to know their non verbals. I've tried emailing the person I knew best at church and chatting on Facebook. Been to Christian Forums, too. It's amazing. Used to be a key part of faith, as in in yourself as well as in God. What was said about it seemed clear enough to me. Yet, when quoted, it doesn't seem so to others.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 10:34 PM
You don't have to apologise to me, it's your life you're frittering away. I don't care what happens to you.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 10:38 PM
Maybe. Won't solve that by swapping one meaningless activity for another.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 10:48 PM
Why would anyone care about you? Being understood isn't your real problem; I watch people misunderstand each other all the time. Ask instead what you bring to the party. I know I'm funny and comforting. You're introspective and submissive, you hardly invite company.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 10:59 PM
Submissive? I'm not just doing whatever you say, am I?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 11:05 PM
Ha, fair point! But you're still looking for answers from outside. Never gonna happen.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 11:15 PM
Hmm. Shame. As not all answers are inside! Or not in me. Here, we're covering what others say and what they mean, etc. If I'm understanding that right, then there's the difficulties to which I refer. Only there's a distinction. Do we mean understand a concept? Or do we mean understand the individual's respective on that concept? It's also making the specific connections. In theory, I understand what arrogant means, as a general concept. Only that doesn't seem to cover too many of it's specific uses. Where people offer 'definitions' that can't be right. Either they contradict themselves or they'd force hypocrisy, usually. That'd just be one of many such things that come up too often to ignore.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 11:16 PM
Can you see that your miring in semantics might itself be the problem?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 11:20 PM
Um, presumably asking what that means is semantics? Only it has to mean something to be applied!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 11:23 PM
I mean that the people you're failing to connect to don't ask themselves all those questions, they're too busy connecting. Every thought you have, your ego, is getting in the way. So remove the thoughts, no?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 11:28 PM
Uh? Stop thinking? Sure, when I die. Oh, and most of what I'd say without thinking really isn't nice, honestly!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 11:35 PM
You can stop thinking, or at least discipline your mind, with meditation, martial arts, etc. So much good advice in this thread from people who were exactly like you.
Do you think it's fear of failure stopping you trying? What are you fears?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-04-2010 11:41 PM
Nothing to say if no thoughts. First one here was '*** off'. How'd I decide whatever it is you're doing that isn't thinking as better? Just not into martial arts. Not stopping anybody else doing them.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-04-2010 11:46 PM
"How'd I decide whatever it is you're doing that isn't thinking as better?"
Because I've done it and it is, then I noticed that all Buddhism was about the same thing so I wasn't just imagining it. If you tried you would know one way or the other. But you won't try, Raymond K Hessel. You won't even try. Enjoy your eternity of death.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-05-2010 12:31 AM
Not thinking about it, then.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 12:59 PM
BruceCM....checking in again to see if you are in a more receptive mood.
Test.....test....test....
It isn't what you think that is important....it is what you do or do not do.
Don't just think...apply.
Religion has some good guidelines...continue with it...just live it...don't let others not living it stop you...you worry about you...you do.
Live life simply...learn to simplify everything in life. If you don't understand something...make it simpler and follow the lead of those who do that which you wish to be like. Yes...I know..I know...I've said it before...Many things in life you won't fully understand until you experience it. Find someone who you can really trust...seek his guidance...and follow it.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-09-2010 01:34 PM
Thinking is one doing, for a start. And it's related to any other doing, too. If I'm to do much with Christianity, it should be with other Christians. Christian should mean somebody who follows Christ's teachings. Anybody'd think I hadn't done my best at it for years. Sticking with the ONE point nobody's addressing. Don't care, then. Don't care, don't care! (Apparently, if you say it over and over to yourself, you can stop caring)
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 01:54 PM
I really don't understand what that ONE point is.
Spell it out...be specific...give an example.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-09-2010 02:25 PM
What I've said already. As don't have any idea why that isn't clear, don't know what else to say about it. Probably a similar breakdown in communication to the ones that cause the problems.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Pakrat - 09-09-2010 06:15 PM
I find it almost impossible to do anything without thinking about it first.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 06:20 PM
Yes....but, the important part that I had posted...the message:
Don't just think...apply.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Pakrat - 09-09-2010 06:21 PM
I don't know how I would.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 06:25 PM
No...I don't think you understand my point...
Don't JUST think...apply.
The point is to realize that just thinking good thoughts...or anything... is worthless unless you put it into action...or base your in-action upon it.
It doesn't matter to the world what you think, unless you can turn those thoughts into positive results.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Pakrat - 09-09-2010 06:27 PM
Hmm, well I have this radical disconnect between thoughts and action, a mental paralysis at times.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 06:31 PM
No problem...you have turned your thoughts into action here...it need not be applied under time constraints or pressure. It is important to know how you best operate and to then adapt if you can...and adapt your situation or surroundings to you if you cannot.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-09-2010 06:32 PM
And it's always been the case, in my life, that the difference between 'positive' and 'negative' actions, socially, are mostly about attitudes, motives, etc, etc. When there's somebody to argue your version with anybody else as I can't, there might be some point to it. We're going in circles!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Pakrat - 09-09-2010 06:35 PM
So maybe sometimes, inaction is action - if one freely decides that taking no action in a particular situation is the best way to go.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 06:40 PM
If you don't know the attitudes or motives....concentrate on the actions. Your actions...their actions...it doesn't matter....don't tell me you don't know the difference between right and wrong....I don't care if you don't understand the rationale....just that you do them consistently.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 06:42 PM
Strictly speaking...no. It is a conscious decision to not do anything...but not an action...it is the absence of action. We, of course, are not speaking of 2nd hand effects as a result of your in-actions.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Pakrat - 09-09-2010 06:49 PM
Well, I have people bothering me to do things when all I really want to do at times is be.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-09-2010 06:58 PM
In which case, their 'actions' would have to be wrong, as they claim it's about what I've said. That'd be lying, if deliberate. Or mistaken. Either way, not GOOD. Evidently, we have different ideas of right and wrong!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-09-2010 07:18 PM
No...to not do evil or to prevent an evil act through action OR inaction is good. Lying is not necessarily evil..e.g.: 1944 Poland...Nazis at a door of a family hiding a group of Jews in the cellar....Does the family lie to them...and thereby saving the Jews lives...Yes..of course...some questions have no right to be asked....you do what you need to do to prevent evil.
Try thinking forward as to what EFFECT your actions or inactions will have...that will determine the goodness of it...NOT the thoughts of anyone.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Genesis - 09-09-2010 07:52 PM
I'm surprised you used a NAZI reference and I was going to call the law of Godwin on it... then again I won't.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-09-2010 07:59 PM
Obviously, there are exceptions where lying is the best course of action. There's no such justification for it about what I do. Part of the effects of actions is the 'way' they come across. Or that's ALWAYS the issue in my life. Now, it's going to say I'm not responsible for the consequences! Wonderful. If anybody else says black is white, it's somehow up to me to explain why it isn't. And if I point out black is black, I also have to be able to explain that. Anybody I deal with can claim anything at all about what I do or say, it seems. Don't know what sort of relationships you do without any communication.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-09-2010 08:08 PM
Does it matter if people believe black is white? Surely that's okay if it makes them feel better.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-09-2010 08:21 PM
Ah. They don't leave me to believe that black is black, though. And it depends on the truth of whatever is being discussed as to whether it does matter or not!
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 01:30 AM
You couldn't....it doesn't apply.
[Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.
However, Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.] - Wilkipedia quote.
It is not in the using of a Nazi reference....just the inappropriate (doesn't add to the support of your point in the argument) use as a tool of debate.
Mine was used to illustrate the use of truth as a standard of goodness as flawed.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 01:34 AM
You have reasoning skills....you can fathom the difference between right and wrong...you can debate with those who don't see right.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Genesis - 09-10-2010 04:52 AM
You couldn't....it doesn't apply.
[Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.
However, Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.] - Wilkipedia quote.
It is not in the using of a Nazi reference....just the inappropriate (doesn't add to the support of your point in the argument) use as a tool of debate.
Mine was used to illustrate the use of truth as a standard of goodness as flawed.
Thats why I said i wouldn't because it didn't fit to what your trying to say.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 08:45 AM
In the debates, we've still got all the claims about attitude, etc! Getting nowhere.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 12:46 PM
Simply say...nope, you are wrong...if they are talking about yours. The burden of evidence is theirs to explain what indicators they are perceiving that make them think you have a certain attitude. This will allow you to say your true intent.
Perhaps they perceive your frustration at not being able to communicate as effectively as you would wish?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 12:48 PM
You couldn't....it doesn't apply.
[Godwin's law does not claim to articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate hyperbolic comparisons.
However, Godwin's law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.] - Wilkipedia quote.
It is not in the using of a Nazi reference....just the inappropriate (doesn't add to the support of your point in the argument) use as a tool of debate.
Mine was used to illustrate the use of truth as a standard of goodness as flawed.
Thats why I said i wouldn't because it didn't fit to what your trying to say.
Ah...very good then...my apology.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 01:00 PM
It's quite possible some of it is my frustration. How it works, IN MY LIFE, (don't know about yours) is if somebody claims I've some attitude or whatever and I say I don't, it's 'denial'. Supposing they say it's andy language, what then? Don't know which bit or what to do about it. The point that it isn't the BAD attitude or whatevr is being claimed remains. It should be possible to understand a bit of frustration. You tell the people I deal with that it's up to them to prove their claims. They don't listen to me.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 01:23 PM
Believe me....I still get that sometimes...I get excited when I talk...I can get animated...I get misunderstood a lot. However...when I notice a change in their body language or face....I need not know what they are thinking...just that it had changed into one of apprehension...I then act more reserved....I tone it down...I control my body motions and lower my voice and open my hands as I talk...I sometimes make fists. I frequently get frustrated when I try to explain things that are foreign concepts to people who refuse to listen....really listen.
However...when someone tries to say I am something I am not...I simply say...really...how so? The ball is in their court to explain.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 01:43 PM
Uh huh. Nobody knows how I EVER had a go at anybody else for ANY supposed attitude, etc. If I ask somebody if they're anxious or worried, because they seem so and they say they're not, I take their word for it. None of my points relied on judgements of others' attitudes, etc. I disagree with that system, in church but I've still nothing to DO about it. Glad you can do as you say. Sorry I can't.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 05:57 PM
You still don't explain what they say if you ask if its through your body language that they are perceiving, incorrectly, your attitude. What exactly do they describe to you why they think you have a certain attitude about you or your attitude? Please don't say you don't remember...you must...you can elaborate on every other point in contention.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 06:14 PM
sie sind tiere! You are dealing with NTs. They would have to be exceptionally secure and bright NTs to let you relate to them in your own way. I'm sorry guys but your problem has no solution in this realm.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 06:37 PM
For the body language, I never found out. It's difficult enough getting that far! Don't care, then. It's ONLY about respect. Won't do it. No more. SAME rules for all. SAME meaning SAME.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 06:40 PM
Who are you to decide it's the same rules for everyone? Jesus took no crap, he could decide stuff like that, but his followers have gotten weaker and weaker, they've reverted to animals. So either you get stronger or you deal with the animals on their own terms. You must see this?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 06:58 PM
You mentioned a mentor of sorts before...would they coach you on it?
I agree...the rules must remain the same. Give basic human respect to all...at all times.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 07:03 PM
When Bruce talks of the rules he means demanding things from the people around him when he is in no position to make demands. This is his problem, his refusal to be pragmatic.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 07:12 PM
Think I meant I'd need a mentor as there doesn't seem to be anybody. IF I think of them as 'animals', I'm not treating them with respect, anyway. Call it whatever you like, I went to that church for years! If faith doesn't mean the same for everybody, it can't be preached and taught. Tough. For it to mean whatever else they want, the basis has to be what I've pointed out. That's the requirement. It's not my invention or just another claim. It's needed for whatever other version is presented! Whether you see it or not.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 07:14 PM
I see it perfectly. You refuse to budge and you get what you deserve.
I agree with you, fwiw, but you aren't Jesus-like enough to convince THEM.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-10-2010 07:20 PM
A good minister perhaps. There are also many Therapists/Counselors experienced in ADHD / Asperger's in your area.
Or....you know what I am going to say...
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 07:37 PM
It's only one point I won't budge on. I do my best at all the other stuff! Too many churches have the same problem. Most more so! If you know my area, whom do you recommend, then? Which church? Which whoever else?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 07:44 PM
What church worked for me was the church of rave. Beautiful people who were open enough to love each other. No messing around with words, just getting straight to God's love. A little more evangelical than you're used to. It straightened me right out, set me on course.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 07:46 PM
Did that mean sex, then?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 07:49 PM
Dance music, drugs, hugging. No casual sex (for me) but some falling in love. Wasn't being facetious calling it a church. Function is exactly the same and it's the same God you get close to. There are lots of different churches.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 08:07 PM
Well, I'm not sure I'd agree. I'm not really looking to argue with you about it, though.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 08:15 PM
You don't think God is in everything?
edit: ah you're right, this conversation is pointless
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 08:18 PM
Uh, well, not exactly! That's pantieism, by the way. It'd be a bit of a tangent to try discussing that.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 08:19 PM
We all build our own prison.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - BruceCM - 09-10-2010 08:22 PM
Do we? Why?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-10-2010 11:50 PM
Fear. Protection from imaginary monsters but really the walls and divisions we create only distance us from ourselves and each other. This stuff is probably in your bible. Your unwillingness to see rave as a church is a hardness against the real world. Jesus would not approve.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - morty - 09-11-2010 12:02 AM
"Pantieism" really got my attention. That's a tangent worth discussing.
Where do the Pantieists meet?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - cynara - 09-11-2010 12:43 AM
"Pantieism" really got my attention. That's a tangent worth discussing.
Where do the Pantieists meet?
Somewhere on the seams between the crotch and the waistline
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-11-2010 12:54 AM
Mum always told me to wear clean underwear in case pantiests ran me over and started worshipping.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - cynara - 09-11-2010 01:01 AM
Exactly, no pantiests want to see pantiewaste
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - dtx - 09-11-2010 01:12 AM
(give me a minute and I'll have something about the holy trinity that isn't too filthy)
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 09-11-2010 07:28 AM
Just on Google....but only you would know the best one...my point was of availability.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Tyohnee - 02-11-2011 06:16 PM
Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right (be assertive...fight the good fight...the honorable one). If someone tries to make you apologize for something they had done, they are seeking dominance and should you cave in...the short term effect may be one of "peace"...but the long term effect is one of no self respect and thereafter, getting no respect from them. It will increase to no end. If you know you are right...and can show the other person objectively and convincingly...that they are wrong...THEY are being stubborn...they will seek to impose their will upon you...knowing you will cave. You will have sold your soul to the devil...and shall live your life in hell so long as they are in your life.
Apologize correctly and you have the right to expect it in return. With this, and
I appologise to a fault. So Many times in a conversation I think I'm responding with my opinion only to find I didn't get the "jist" of the situation. I have learned not to give an opinion off the top, but study everything in my mind as it goes on till I'm absolutely certain what's the situation before responding.
Of course there are times where I get it right. But as a whole, I appologise way too much.
only with this...progress can be made.
Thoughts on this?
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Shiroi Tora - 04-08-2011 10:57 AM
Actually...this is my statement only:
IF..and ONLY IF, you are wrong...you owe more than the utterances of apology. You have drawn first blood. You must expect them to be angry..of course, in appropriate relation to the offense. You allow that. You correct the offense...and, this is important...you pay back..with interest.
Do not apologize if you KNOW you are right (be assertive...fight the good fight...the honorable one). If someone tries to make you apologize for something they had done, they are seeking dominance and should you cave in...the short term effect may be one of "peace"...but the long term effect is one of no self respect and thereafter, getting no respect from them. It will increase to no end. If you know you are right...and can show the other person objectively and convincingly...that they are wrong...THEY are being stubborn...they will seek to impose their will upon you...knowing you will cave. You will have sold your soul to the devil...and shall live your life in hell so long as they are in your life.
Apologize correctly and you have the right to expect it in return. With this, and only with this...progress can be made.
Thoughts on this?
I know you didn't do it on purpose...unless you quote just mine and then the quote of the reply separately and with the appropriate name attributed directly to the appropriate quote...it gets confusing.
RE: The art of the Apology - When to - and not to - Outlier - 12-21-2011 03:56 AM
I apologise repeatedly.
I apologise as a compulsive habit.
I rarely apologies just once. I apologise again and again.