How would a non-autistic person know whether or not his/her parents loved them?

Acceptance. It is very painful to feel that your parents would love you (or would love you more) if only you were 'normal'.

Secondly, I do hope you realize that the majority of auties are not savants?

The difficulty goes both ways.  Autistic body language and tone of voice are often confusing to non-autistics.  Sadly, there are some parents who do not know whether their autistic child loves them, just because the child's voice and body language don't match the parents' assumptions about how a child shows love.

So tell me your guess on how you can tell weither your parents love you or not. Ignore nothing, paying as close attension to every detail as you can.  Keeping in mind theres many different forms of communications.  I'm sure its a difficult task to do turning that kind of information into meaningful words, but its a good starting point as any for a discussion on how autistics can tell.

I'd also like to point out not all autistics are body language and/or tone blind and some may have difficulty with recognizing faces.

Talking isn't the only form of communication. Theres writing, panting, drawling, sign language, etc. The rest of your questions sound to me alot like the question "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear the sound of a tree crashing to the ground, does it still make a sound?"

If two people do send emotion/body signals, but each one sends it in a different language much in the same someone may speak french while another person speaks german.  Is the failer of the other person to understand it a sign that the signal isn't being sent or just that the signal failed to be recieved, processed, understood, and interperted?

Are feelings something one has and learns to express or are feelings something compleatly taught?

Scientists have been trying to understand the inner state of people in general from a scientific point of view for centuries.  Not sure what words could be used.  Generally an autistic child like any child wouldn't concern themself with being different unless it becomes an issue, like parents who don't accept there child for who they are, or being bullied or teased by other children in school or adults saying nasty things about them in there presents, etc. People generally aren't aware of there differences until there made aware of the fact there is difference.  "What does it feel like?" Why would being autistic in of itself feel like anything, why would being non-autstic it on itself feel like anything?  Peoples attitudes tend to twords it is what causes people one way or another about it, but thats outside pressure.  Your the way you are that "feels" "normal" unless outside pressure changes that *shrug*.

I hope you don't take what I say to be rude.  I'm not trying to scare you away or make you want to just lurk.  I've been trying to provide some useful information and a starting point to perhaps getting your first question answered.  Its a difficult question to answer that will take some back and forth discussion to have a meaningful understooding of the answer.  :smile:

I expect the child would, at some point, become aware of the mom's feelings of frustration or disappointment, and the child would also feel abandoned to some extent.  Even if the mom is careful to avoid saying anything negative, and even if the child can't read the mom's body language and tone of voice accurately, there may be some discrepancies in the mom's behavior and words.

For example, let's say the mom always tells the child that he is smart, capable, and will have a wonderful future.  Then the mom overly praises the child for some small accomplishment (such as tying his shoelaces neatly) that wouldn't be significant for the average child of his age.  The child starts to wonder if mom's expectations for him are really as high as she claims.

I suggest that you read Ballastexistenz, a blog written by an autistic woman who has been described as "low-functioning."  She is an outspoken activist and has much to say about what it feels like to be treated as an object of curiosity by people who don't understand that she has feelings.  (Just to clarify, I'm not referring to you personally.)

First off, I don't claim to speak for other Aspies. I can relate to your problem of how to depict an Autistic person's inner state.

I am an aspiring writer and I am diagnosed as high functioning autistic. I have struggled with the same problem of how to represent my inner state. A lot of people have said that my writing is publishable but then they often make the comment that I don't provide enough information about what is going on in the mind of the narrator as he or she interacts with other characters.  

I don't mean to sound egotistical by going on about my inner state in a long post, but I have had to think about what is the difference between my inner state and those of NTs and how to depict it in writing. I have come to think that I have been trying to tell stories from the perspective of an NT because that is the narrative model I have been taught.

It is difficult for me to narrate like an NT because as an Aspie I do not seem to centralize the mode of perception that would cause me to make my thoughts, judgements, impressions based on direct social interaction the central fous of my inner narrative.  I am drawn to what is happening in the moment, and must force myself to focus on the social interaction as it relates to dialogue or goal oriented activities because the verbal interactions and larger goal does not seem as compelling or important as my moment by moment sensory impressions. I tend to go through life like that. If I meet someone on the street I am entranced by my sensory impressions of the person I am speaking to and find it difficult to pay attention to the verbal flow of their conversation. I was at a social function once during the past ten years and had a hard time fitting in, although I was supported by close friends who were there - I caught myself at one point staring at the light patterns on the wall and realized with some embarrassment that I had been doing that too long than would be considered normal. But then my Aspergian pride kicked in, and I refused to feel embarrassed about it though I was surrounded by NTs. While I was staring at the light patterns I was processing information about the technical requirements to set up the lighting in the room and thinking about what it meant in terms of cost and production to the organization that was giving the event and what that meant to the social values of the organization  and how all of that impacted those people in the room. In short, I was focused on the meaning of the lighting system but processing all the information through an other than verbal way to myself. It would take some time for me to translate my compelling impressions into verbal language.

In that moment, although my mental process was not anything I could have communicated in words to anyone who might have asked me why I was staring at the wall my behavior was not that of a blank state. It had meaning, but I was processing information about the meaning imposed or produced through environmental stimuli through other than verbal means.  Meanwhile, all around me the NTs chatted and laughed easily with each other.  I then turned to my freind who kissed me on the cheek, and I felt warmth toward him and loved. So I was not detached from social life, just focused differently.

I think that if any NTs were watching they would have thought my focus on the lights was odd and unfriendly. No NT would sit there staring at the wall, rather they would be more focused mostly on what people were saying, the different social cues going on, and I believe their social interaction would be way more centralized to them than the way the lights danced on the wall were for myself.

I don't think that my way of processing information is superior to that of NTs. However, I don't think it is inferior either.  The advantages and disadvantages of my Aspie process is a whole other topic. However, I find that NTs are often disadvantaged  because they get things wrong based on the culturally imposed sameness of their perceptions and their inability to consider that other ways of looking or deciphering exist. Afterwards I found out that one of the NTs had privately asked another NT about what was "wrong" with me and that NT had wrongly been informed and had passed on information to others that I am a deaf person.

I think Sigmund Freud started a school of unhealthy thought of perfectionistic ideals of what is healthy and what is not. I think people made a great mistake in trying to "fix" people in order to make them fit this ideal.  I agree with your comment that nature doesn't make mistakes, people do.  Sigmund Freud can't be fully blaimed tho, I think stigmas on how people should be existed before Sigmund Freud.  I think everyone could be catagoried ill and maybe everyone should be just to put to much weight on the boat and make it break, so this silly cycle can be broken and people can start becomming more accepting of differences.  As people come to accept differences, people won't feel so different after all.

I think you might be right. None of us can ever understand fully what it means to be anyone but ourselves.

But I take profound exception to the politically incorrect thing. I am not looking for votes. I'm looking for help in understanding. I'm making an effort to get it right.

There may be no way I can write from the point of view of an autistic. But I can try.

Colleen McCullough wrote about Julius Caesar, from his point of view. Despite the fact that he slaughtered thousands of Gauls, I still wound up liking the guy. Go figure. I came to a better understanding of him as a human being, and the in which he lived. Colleen McCullough had done her homework. That's all I'm trying to do. I may not be a great writer. But I can try to be a good one.

A good writer is honest. Whatever she writes, it had better be honest. Otherwise it's tripe. There's no point in it, much less profit. And that's all I'm trying to do here - be honest. Whether I try to write the story from Ivor's point of view or not, I'm going to try to get it right. I'm going for honesty.

For the record: The label of Politically Incorrect is just some weak ***. I can't abide it. It's name calling, and obfuscating. Leave off the "politically" and I'm fine. Just "incorrect", "not accurate", "does not serve"... Fine. I can take that gracefully. But Politically Incorrect? Not for one second will I stand for it. That's just some Stalinistic chickenshit.

I think it is plain from my posts that I don't like labels or judgements. I grew up with Jim Crow. I've seen some Politically Incorrect stuff. I've experienced some of it because of my life path. What's Politically Incorrect is blaming folks who don't have wheels for not getting out of the way of the flood. And then patting yourself on the back for the way you handled the hurricane. That's Politically Incorrect.

And you don't even log onto the board with a name. You just come out of left field with no name, and label me. Bite me. You hear? Just bite me.

I showed up on the board as guest because although I thought I had logged in, I guess I didn't.

I agree with you that the term politically correct can be misused. Often I come across someone whose very strict about politically correct terms, but then, when I look at the way they live or make their money, their use of the term becomes relatively meaningless. In this particular case I was using the term to point out to you that being different because one has red hair is not the same as being different because one is autistic. Obviously having red hair is a cosmetic difference (racism against celts nonwithstanding) whereas being autistic is a much more profound difference.  By comparing us to people who are different because they have red hair you diminish the profundity of our difference. I live everyday of my life with cognitiveily different perceptions than others.  It feels quite diminishing to be compared to someone with a superficial cosmetic difference. You asked for information and I gave it.

I don't get the significance of the flower. Sure, they're pretty and all but can flowers be compared to balloons? Or how about graham crackers? I have to tell you that I think your use of symbolism is weak, you're not really writing to us with meaning. It's sort of this pretend crap. If you want to be a better writer you should become more honest with yourself and others about what it is you really mean to express.  Otherwise you're going to end up writing things that are dishonest and lacking in depth and when it comes to portraying auties this could have negative consequences for those of us whose lives you are attempting to portray.

Even your use of the symbol of a flower is incorrect in political terms. Postmodernism does away with grand narrative. We can't draw universal meanings from a flower.  One flower could be indigenous, another could be grown by some poor exploited person in some underdeveloped country for shipment to the West.  Therefore, the use of the generic flower as a symbol is not specific enough to hold any real meaning except to impose a meaning given by the dominant culture.

She actually may not have been....although it's hard to say. I have Asperger's and sometimes rock quite a bit and pick at things. Stress, nervousness, and unfamiliar surroundings or a change in routine can make this behavior more exaggerated.
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I said 'acceptance' before, but Amy's reply made me think. I haven't had much acceptance so I'm not sure...but what I can say is that I feel loved by very, very few people, and I'm sure that my family does love me somewhat. A lot of times when people say that they love me or care about me, it doesn't hit home, it's as though the statement just does not compute and goes flying off into a black hole somewhere. Hugs and physical affection can be the same- if I do not feel loved, they do nothing for me but make me feel awkward or touch aversive.

There is a book you might enjoy: The Man Who Loved Only Numbers. It's about Paul Erdos, a mathematician, true story. It doesn't say he was autistic but there's not a shadow of doubt in my mind that he was, after reading it.

Could you? You threw out a metaphor comparing the progress of a protagonist to climbing a tree and having rocks thrown at you. One person on the board interpreted this literally. This seems to be quite a difference in perception to me.

You're right, Brightman, we were both jumping to conclusions, and mine didn't have any more basis than yours.

Vendaia, the need for a dramatic conflict does not excuse the careless use of cultural stereotypes, from the standpoint of either literary merit or social responsibility.  An autistic character does not have to be a savant in order to create a conflict, any more than an African-American character has to be a professional basketball player, or a Jewish character has to be a wealthy banker, or an Italian character has to be a mafioso.

Stereotypes are a lazy substitute for the mental work required to create a complex, true-to-life character and a meaningful plot with a genuinely believable conflict.

By the way, this is the reason why I assumed you were a part-time student taking a creative writing class.  A professional writer would know better.

As for this comment...

You may not have intended to be rude, but that's a prejudiced statement.  It implies that you think we shouldn't have emoticons because we're not capable of using them intelligently.  That is equivalent to a white person going into a forum for black activists and commenting that she's surprised to find ads for university courses.

A description or label may be a fashion choice, but diagnoses?

Yes, symbols do have real power and authority. Humans both construct meaning and apply symbols or codes to communicate that meaning to each other.  Naming is a powerful act that is often imposed by societal institutions. I believe the autistic civil rights movement aims to reclaim the diagnosis or description of autism so that  society is more inclusive of our issues so that we aren't pathologized and abused based on our difference.

Your argument is not coherent. First you argue that naming gives or takes away power, then you describe it as a fashion choice.

And if that quote is JC talking about Lilies, well at least he was referring to some indigenous plants and not miniature roses shipped from Mexico.

I don't have any more time to spend on this, but I have to say that your understanding of what it is to be autistic is quite limited.  You do seem to be trying to understand, but underneath I detect some anger. Where is that coming from?

Since Vendaia said that she herself is GD, isn't it fair for her to ask whether there are others here?

I disagree that a diagnosis is a fashion choice though. A careless self-diagnosis may be, but an official diagnosis is an external factor which a person may not have chosen.

Read what she said again, she wasn't asking if others here had gender issues.

I like that comparison. You know, because I am an Aspie I am compelled to be honest. When someone who is not an Aspie asks me what it is like to be an Aspie I do become apprehensive and defensive. This negative response is based on my experience that NTs are always looking for a way to enhance their own status based on the information that I give them.  For example, I am currently going through some court proceedings related to a financial crime that was done to my family. Through the process I must continually educate people about my autism. I generally get one of two responses, either the issue of autism goes ignored or it is used to profit some professional who believes that through the use of therapy or other means my issues can be resolved. I'll be more specific. I show up for an appointment with each of my shoe laces a differnt color. This makes sense to me, because why should I buy a new package of shoe laces just so that my shoe laces will match? It is logical to me that it is not necessary to have matching shoe laces. But NTs would see this as evidence that I am somehow mentally defecient. In fact, what I need is for others to realize that I am a whole person and not in need of any intervention. I need my identity to be recognized as a valid existence.  I think that there are all sorts of day to day judgements that are imposed on us as Aspies because we are cognitively different than NTs.  Does that help for you to understand? If you would like, I would even be willing to help in the developmental editing of your manuscript.  I'm an aspiring writer and I am quite good at giving feedback, but I might not always be able to express myself in ways that you would consider nonoffensive.

I'd describe that advertisement as exploitative flattery.

If I did so, and the members of your community told me that my character was an unrealistic stereotype, I would pay attention to their concerns and would proceed to revise my story accordingly.  I would not, as you seemed to be doing, respond with a dismissive lecture on the need for conflict in a story and insist that the stereotype was necessary for conflict.

Perhaps that was not your intent.  In the interest of avoiding a flame war, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and to withdraw my comment about professionalism.

I can only speak for myself, but  in my experience NTs do not find me highly lovable. In fact, my perspectives seem to transgress some of their cherished ideals.  My perspective is that the "normals" are very possessive about their status and even my body language seems to threaten disorder.  Someone on these boards made the observation that NTs like to try to build consensus, even if that consensus is wrong.  Most times I have no vested interest in NT consensus because as an "oddball" I have little chance to benefit from such consensus. I was at a meeting the other day and everyone was eyes agog on the speaker, whereas I didn't see the significance of being there or following along with the crowd. During his speech I left the room and came back several times. Afterward I realized I had committed a social faux pas by doing that.  However, to my mind, there was no point in standing around listening to him reiterate information that I already knew.  I didn't mean to show disrespect, but unfortunately that is how I came across to some people who were there.  Also, it is very difficult for me to stand in a crowd because I can't maintain the posture that NTs use when listening to a speaker. I end up fidgeting or staring at the lights on the wall or twirling my hair and this becomes noticeable to the NTs who then react toward me as thought I am mentally defecient.  At such times it seems my whole existence is a threat to the status quo in many ways.  My point is, I think your character Ivor would likely be someone whose existence threatens the social status and values of the NTs.

Ideas don't make stories, writers do. Anyone can come up with an idea, but it takes much more time and effort to make it into a good book.

That's not fair.  We know little about your story.we don't even know what genre is. for a comedy or a children book, having the protaganist save the earth would be be an acceptable plot device. for a drama it would be absurd.  

That's too bad. Austism is the focus of many conflicts within the home and without (look around this site for one of them). Lot of material for a enterprising author interested in the subject. :wink:

A lot of NT's are overfocused on Savantism IMO. It might be just positive thinking. but it might just be glossing over the difficultities Autism brings. I do not believe that the classic notion of a savant implies creativity though. for example though the savent pianist may be able to play mozart by ear they may not be able to compose new music.  The problem I have with this I think it can be apply to any ability of an autistic or aspie diminishing that ablity to a quirk of our disability.

I am curious as to what the main conflict of the story is?

You have this all wrong. I think you have some sexist misconceptions about parenthood. Firstly, writing is a far more self centered activity than caring for young human beings 24/7. Childcare is very hard work and goes completely unpaid.  And, as a mother of three I am qualified to say that even loving parents do not necessarily love to be around their children. It can be a hellish lot of work to care for children. In fact, a large part of the time I'd rather be relaxing on a beach in Aruba...writing my novel.

I doubt his brother was on the spectrum but he certainly had traits, thanks for bringing this up - he seems to struggle with emotions and social things quite a lot too, just in a more "NT-friendly" way.