Aspies For Freedom

Hi Guess Who,

How do you take the bible as a law for sexual behaviour. There are stories of rape and abuse of women, and men getting away with it. f.i. David does not react towards the perpetrator when his daughter Tamar was abused (2sam13). Absolom wanted justice for his sister, in a strange way, because he told her to be silent, so he killed Amnon, the rapist. (capter 14)  Later on Absolom thought is was prudent to rape some of his fathers wifes on the roof so everybody could see it.(chapter 16) And in chapter 20 we can see how these women get punished for it. They lose their status and are treated as widows afterwards.

This is a story about sex and power in the bible. The 'justice', thats been done is only justice to the men. The women are neglected. What justice is done to Tamer, she lives, thats all. What justice is done to the ten wifes of David, they loose their position. I think we agree that we have different sexlaws now and that that is for the better. If sexlaws can be different for heterosexual conduct now, why can't there be a change for homosexual conduct.

Wifes are possesion in the bible. We don't agree on that anymore.

If you want to say the core of the bible is love. Then why not live according to this core and take it as critical for the bible.

And being Gay is not something you become. It's what you are. If God objected to homosexuality, why would there be homosexuality, not only in humans but in birds too.

Did God make a mistake at birth?

And don't tell me he wanted to test some individuals if they could withstand the temptations of the flesh. That would be like telling an aspie to behave NT and withstand the temptations to do otherwise.

If this discussion is theological I would like some discussion about the bible being literaly the word of God. I don't think it is. I think people gave an expression of how they experienced living with god. They did it in their language, with their culture and their flaws. We've got another language, another culture and other flaws.

If we do take the bible as literal we have to take awful laws imo as legal. Like when a virgin gets raped in the fields, the man has to pay her father and has to marry the girl. What law will force a girl to marry her rapist? (Deut 22:28)

Had he abused an engaged girl, in the fields, he would have been brought to death. (Deut 22:25-26). Why is the punishment different then?
Because he 'spoiled' goods belonging to another man. The whole girl is not important at all.

If I have to take the bible as literaly god's word, being christian is no option for me.

I do like fabrics made of cotton and linen. God is said not to like mixed fabrics.
I do think double cropping on a field might bring down the use of pesticides. God is said to hate it.

But these last laws seem to be about not cheating on eachother when you buy and sell. So in that context I can understand, and even think its valid today. Not literal, but the not cheating part is valid.

But I think we've got brains and can and should read religious texts with respect. And this respect means we can and should be critical. Reading in 2007 is something else than reading in -700.

And the critical view I think is valid is the view of love. How could god oppose love. Yes there are text against homosexuality in the new testament. But in greek there was a culture that younger men got educated in exchange for sex. I can imagine that the church did not want young man in their ranks sleeping with leaders to come in heaven. Its about why you have sex. If it is the only way to get promotion the bible is right in saying something about it. But the words just came out wrong.

No sex if you don't want it. Wether its straight or gay.

Why not after Christ, and what is your opinion about the position of women described in my posts. I'm taking the theological aspect of this thread serious.

What do you think about raped women? What does the bible have to say about that according to you?

Yes Guess Who.

You know what I said, but you don't react. As I said I do take the theological in your thread serious. You seem not too.

Taking the bible literal is letting men getting away with rape again and again.
How would you ever tell a women it would be safe to be a Christian if you can't distance yourself from those texts in the bible?

And I'm dead serious about that question.

You  can not, I mean CAN NOT talk about the love of god and take those texts as righteous. Unless you still think women are just property of men and have no value or personality of their own.

M, I know there are text valuing women. That's not the point. The point is taking the bible literal and not taking in account when it was written. In what culture. And this culture was not really friendly for women. Ruth is an exception, an important exception, but even there her value gets bigger when she gets a son. There her life is important again. And the man she marries is bringing an offer, not really to Ruth, but to her dead husband. The child will be ofspring of the son of Naomi. Ruth and Naomi will benefit from that. But the male perspective, the son of Naomi, is very important here. It still is about the man.

That's culture.

Feminist theologians have been looking for the exceptions. Thats why (some) of them still can feel at home in some churches.

The commandments of not making an image and not using gods name invain are important I think. It is were religion is telling its limits.

We are not supposed to make a white middleclassed heterosexual status quo preserving male of god, or anything else to prove our point. And we shall not use the name of god invain to prove our ''right'' from their ''wrong''. We shall not use a fixed image of god to hurt and exclude people.

I think these two commandments are one of the best things in christianity. Its about selfcriticism.

And that is very important if you want to be religious I think. I cannot be a christian and ignore how much harm is done in the name of my church and still is done. Still most churches have a habit of hiding sexual abuse in families or telling the victims to forgive. Holy Crap!!!  But the celtic church said sexual abuse of your child was an unpardonable sin. There you could go as a child. People have killed and raped in the name of god, people have loved and saved because they felt loved by god. Both sides are true.

And probably both sides are true for al religions and all philosophies of life. Its were people think they are right beyond any doubt that the hurting begins.

When I hear someone say that he/she has the absolute truth, I back off. Because imo there the world and the people have to be bent or broken to fit that truth.

I know I've been bi-sexual all my life. I don't fall for men or women. But if I fall for a women I like the way she looks and moves and thinks etc. If I fall for a man I like the way he looks and moves and thinks etc.

Now I'm finding out I'm not only bi-sexual, but also bi-religious. There are christian ways of thinking and believing I really can relate to. I don't think christianity is perfect There are buddhist ways of thinking and seeing life as it is I really can relate to. I don't think buddhism is perfect.

I don't want to mix male and female into the perfect true partner.
I don't want to mix christianity and buddhism into the perfect true religion.

I don't believe in perfect truth. But sometimes I see something true, and I enjoy it there and then.

And I love my partner, and I like his moustache, not because I like moustaches, but because I like it on him. I don't think he is 'the perfect' partner. I don't think that does exist. But I do see something true in our love. And I enjoy it.

Guess Who, I do think you have a heart. I even think you are a nice person. It is not your heart I have a problem with. It is not your faith. But I do have problems with your beliefs. They hurt me.

As I wrote before:

"I like it when someone is telling me what being religious means to her or him. If a jehova witness stops telling me his doctrines and starts telling me what it means for him/her, and why its doing so much good I listen carefully. I won't be converted, but I do listen. If a born again christian does the same, I will listen. If a muslim tells me about her/his religious life and how that brings joy in his/her life I listen. I still won't be converted, but I will listen, with respect.

But if a religious person is telling me how other people are wrong, just because they are who they are. If a religious person can tell me that god does not love some people and he/she knows which people god does not like I can not really listen anymore."

I like it when someone tells about his/her faith, I really do. But the beliefs, there is my problem. Because there the hurting start. Leave the beliefs to god. God as bigger than our hearts and our judgements.

EDIT BUTTON  Not "leave the beliefs to god" But trust God and the love of God, enough to stop using your beliefs as judging measures towards others. God, as bigger than our hearts and much bigger than our judgements.

Duck, it is about the beliefs found in the bible when you take the bible literal, from the first page to the last. And I've given examples earlier in this thread. Those examples are hurting. It does not make the church a safe place for women. It does not make the church a safe place for anyone that is not a heterosexual (white) man with some power.

And yes, that are beliefs that hurt. And are harmful too. A friend of mine was told, by a minister, to forgive her father after years of incest and physical abuse. Christ had told us to forgive our enemies. She should do that too. She should pray for the holy spirit and forgive. Her body is ruined, her mind is, her spirit is. And he should get away with it. He did not even have to realize what he had done, let alone repent. She should forgive. I think thats abuse again of the woman (girl then) and its abuse of christianity. And her story is not the only one. And it was not just one minister saying something like that to her. Another said she should try to understand her father and therefor forgive. Her parents agreed with this minister, of course. That are harmful beliefs and they do hurt.

And of course her father thought women were like Eve, in the image of Eve, therefor seductive and irresistable. BS!!! He made it his daughters fault!!! And used the bible to do so.

And that is why beliefs can be so painful to me, and why faith is something completely different imo.

When asked what he would do if he knew tomorrow was the last day
Luther said: "I'd plant an apple tree"

That's real faith.

Living life fully till the last day.
Not only the toil of planting a tree
Also enjoying the planting of this tree

Even though, tomorrow is the end of the world.

Luther did not focus on the hope of the afterlife.
You cannot live on that hope.
Because it makes you forget that you are here and now.

To live here and now is found by more christians. It's also found by other mystics. Buddhism is famous for it.

And yes religions are full of flaws. Its human. Its what humans are good and evil. There is no flawless religion, there is no flawless atheist philosophy either. Both can liberate and hold captive.

Like any knowledge. We can kill and cure.

Duck, I know its the father finding his excuse in his bible, and yes he could have found something in the k'ran to. He could have found his excuses everywhere. There is some research done by Diana Russell, she found it made no difference what religion or life philosophy people held, the percentage of sexual domestic violence was the same, with only one exception. The jewish, and the reason was that women are not clean half of the month, and laws considering not being clean after sex.

And it might not make a difference for the percentage of incest to which life philosophy, religion or denomination you belong. It does make a lot of difference how the victim is looked upon after it has happened.

OK, I don't understand some things. I don't understand the ANTI. I don't understand the WE CHRISTIANS either. Its BS to me both.

There are awfull christians, there are great christians too.
There are awfull atheists, there are great atheists too.

You'd almost think they are human.

When the discussion is turning into a WE vs THEM thing, the thread has no meaning to me anymore.

But maybe that is my backround. I doubt everything and I'm not used to think in two parties only. We've got a completely different style of politics here too.

Ichtims, I like your description of sexuality. But I also know it does make a difference in daily life, because of how others see you and treat you. I do agree with you though.

Ive always wondered why there's a "God Hates Fags" campaign but no "God Hates Dykes" complement.
The ONLY people Ive ever heard bashing lesbians are biblethumpers. But there are plenty of jackass's
who openly lament "fags" simply because they consider it to be unmacho.