Aspies For Freedom

Exactly. This is why it's pointless to talk to fundamentalists. They start with the absurd idea that god dictated the bible and it is inerrant. The idea is irrational, so rational talk is impossible.

There are rational Christians, of course, but they know that the bible was written by a great any fallible human beings.

I saw the reverend Fred Phelps of "God Hates Fags" fame in a documentary tonight. His position is essentially the same as GuessWho's. "It says right there in the Bible. God hates fags. All I'm doing is telling God's truth."

Fundamentalist "fag haters" would do well to check out their theological cohorts.

warning: link is to Fundamentalist Hate Site. If you are not a fundamentalist "fag hater" you will probably find it offensive.

"I'm not sure what the heck the problem is with rapists.  Power, I've heard.  Rejection?  I've wondered. "

Your response to the ssue of biblically sanctioned rape is some vague woolgathering about "hmmm, I wonder what causes men to be rapists?" You have no concern about the women or about how to accept the idiotic notion of biblical inerrancy in a case like this? You don't respond to the whole grotesque idea of women as property?

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I know what you said, you think the Bible old fashioned for what it said in the Old Testament about things like rape.

That's what you think Hyke said? "Gee, the Bible's kind of quaint and old-fashioned about rape"? As if in a rape trial the jury would say "We find the defendant old fashioned"?  What an astonishing response.

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"Regretfully, M, the common suggestion for homosexuality is to walk away from exercising it."

The common idiot's suggestion, perhaps. It's certainly not the suggestion of psychologists, doctors, social scientists, or any other group of thinking, rational, compassionate human beings.

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Homosexuality is not a legal problem.

Homosexuality is not a political problem.

Homosexuality is no problem at all -- not legally, politically, psychologically, medically or spiritually. BUT homophobia is a problem in all those realms. And to be gay in a homophobic culture means that we are the object of inequity, ignorance, legal oppression, discrimination -- you have no idea how many legal rights are denied gay people.

And our lives are politicized by hate-mongering political hacks who  know that good christian bigots are so filled with hate that they will fund, elect and re-elect corrupt, illegitimate, lying, thieving politicians as long as those crooked politicians promise an anti-gay agenda.

M -- there are many good websites that deal with "reparative therapy" and other "ex-gay" crap.

http://www.truthwinsout.org/mental-health-experts/

http://www.ralliance.org/ExGayMyth.html

It's against the law for somebody to steal my car, but that's not because the car has rights as a human being. It's because I have rights as a property owner. I can sell my car, or I can beat it to wreckage with a sledge hammer if I want. The car has no rights. I have rights.

Or we could try the common sense approach...

So many Christians consider AIDS as god's punishment on "those homosexuals"... and since Lesbians have a much lower rate of HIV infection than heterosexuals, we must  conclude that Lesbians are, in fact, god's chosen people.

"There is a law of nature and that clearly states that homosexuality is not approved. "

They believe that ALL non-procreational sex is wrong. THAT is contrary to the "laws of nature" because people are sexually motivated when they are well beyond procreative capability, and women are sexual when they are not fertile. Rule of nature is: sex feels good.

And the "law of nature" argument is silly, anyway. i-pods don't exist in "nature" -- I await the announcement that all i-pod owners are going to hell. In nature, old men don't wear dresses made of gold and $2,000 red Prada shoes. But that doesn't stop the Pope. And even if we were bound to the affective and sexual limitations of lower order animals, same sex activity has been noted in many animal species. I suppose they're going to hell, too.

1.  The Father punishes
2.  unless the Son saves
=== This sounds like a severely dysfunctional family.

3.  sin is a large category not a narrow one and has little to do with sex
=== Nor does it seem to have much to do with how one should live a good life. Too bad. That would have been helpful.

4.  followers are instructed to love, not to punish
=== God should really check up on his followers because they're not very good at this one.

5.  the fact that so-called followers punish instead of love is a valid observation
=== So are many other observations that you have not replied to in any meaningful way.

6.  Christians do not sit around on Sunday morning dreaming this stuff up like some Spaghetti Monster
=== They don't have to. Somebody already dreamed up their FSM for them, long ago.

7.  Christians learn about the existence of invisible omnipotent power through prayer, meditation, and Bible study
=== same way all non-Christians learn their religions -- which Christians want them to burn in hell for.

8.  We are obliged to consider the Holy Scriptures as written by God through human agents
=== Obliged by whom? Why, by the human agents, of course.

In exchange for obedience, Christianity promises salvation in an afterlife; but in order to elicit obedience through this promise, Christianity must convince men that they need salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural, intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can introduce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can introduce salvation.

-- George H Smith

In other words, you can't refute what he says. I understand.

Exactly. There are Christians who don't support hate-driven denominations. I had not heard the term "green christians" -- I'll google it. Whatever it is, I'm sure the Baptists gleefully believe you're all going to hell...

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LOL! I googled and, sure enough, all sorts of fundamentalists denouncing green christians.

energeia, thank you so much for that story. And if I may ask, what town was this?

"people who I think are basically well-intentioned commit themselves to views that have disgusting implications."

Exactly. And millions and millions of dollars are spent, speeches given, sermons preached and laws proposed to lead them in that direction.  "You want to be a good person, and in order to be a good person, here is who you must hate." "We will love-bomb you so you will help us hate-bomb others."

I was reading a diatribe this morning on Google News by noted Christian leader (and convicted Watergate thug) Chuck Colson wherein he spoke of the wicked Homosexual Agenda and Christianity's "spiritual war" against the "moral evil" of the homosexuals. (Gay-haters love the word homosexual; they gag on the word gay because it just doesn't sound hateful enough.)

To a rational human being, how can Colson's words even sound sane, much less Morally Correct? Yet it's not an unusual or extreme rant by contemporary Christian standards.

This is why it's ridiculous to say  "a theological discussion of Christianity and homosexuality, and to try our best not to let personal feelings seep into it."

A) "God said it. I believe it. That settles it!" is not a theological discussion, it's a bumper sticker on the back of a pick-up.

B) "A theological discussion" is a less accurate description of this thread than "an endlessly recycled justification for hating gay people" with the usual assertions that hating gay people is not only acceptable, it is the holy obligation of true christians.

C) Only in the topsy-turvy world of pious religiosity would someone say "We're going to lay out our reasons for hating The Homosexuals -- oh, and you homosexuals shouldn't take it personally."

The most hateful, toxic and oppressive force against gay people in America is fundamentalist christianity. Oddly enough, I have personal feelings about that.

It has always struck me how brutal and dehumanizing most male-female relationships are in the bible. And if you want the real love stories in the bible, the best examples are David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi.

I'll post this link even though it is to a group called "Religious Tolerance" (as this thread has proved, the REAL christians find religious intolerance much more gratifying)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bmar.htm

It's the "theological discussion" this thread is not.

Oh, please. "We Christians having experienced some of the worst things"? Spare me the christian-as-victim crap. It's disingenuous, at best, and an insult to groups who are authentically persecuted and oppressed.

No Christians been fed to the lions since the fourth century , and in the years since, as christians have become incredibly privileged and powerful, they have been the the ones doing the feeding.

It's become rather comical, christians posing and whining about "We're the real victims!" Get real. You live in a country where a person can't be elected president without proclaiming fealty to Jesus Christ, and the multi-billion dollar Christian industry goes untaxed which helps them spend millions of dollars oppressing others.

"[Christians] will defend and protect other people, non-heteros included" The irony being, of course that it is the christians from whom we need protection.

And who the hell is Mrs. Y and what are you talking about?

That's interesting. I wonder. I'm sure a lot of the bigots and homophobes would be outraged and storm off to create their own gay-hating churches. But a lot of non-haters might return to a church free of hate...