Aspies For Freedom - Parents rally in support of doctor facing misconduct charge over MMR-autism link

Well, the mercury militia are claiming the MMR vaccine in their arguments, Monica. My view is that the regression was caused by the high fever (perfect sensory overload) and not the vaccine. Now if it can be proved that the vaccine caused the high fever, then OK, but there are treatments for high fever. That was a key to the test case in the US Vaccine Court last month - a fever of 105 F. I have asked ever since I heard that "Why didn't they take the kid to hospital??". Such a high fever in a baby is nothing to be trifled with! I wouldn't trifle with it in any human being including adults - but a BABY??? Yike!

Monica Bice Wrote:

Unfortunately, in the US's crappy healthcare system, even a fever of 105 isn't enough to warrant action anymore.

Well that's part of the problem, and it needs to be fixed up pronto.

Monica Bice Wrote:

And while true that it is the fever that caused the regression, in many cases, the fever would not have happenned, if not for a vaccine reaction.

Well that's something that would need to be looked at at the time, otherwise one will never know.

Monica Bice Wrote:

I am very interested in what you mean by "perfect sensory overload", as I have wondered about my husband's friend's nephew. His family is very "spectrumish" and when his nephew was 2, he pulled a pot of boiling water on himself, had severe burns, regressed, and is severely autistic.

I have heard other similar stories, and was wondering if you think it may be due to a sensory overload, too much of a certain stimuli perhaps?

Well, I'm basing my view on an opinion that was put by a doctor on a blog earlier this year - but basically as I understand it any severe attack on any of the five senses, or even the sixth (instinct) would be perfect. Pain is another great one (a la the boiling water) but a high fever just completely disorientates you. I'm probably not making myself clear here because as I said - I'm going on a theory as presented elsewhere.

But yes - too much of a certain stimuli. But it could be any stimuli.

I just returned from our aspie support group last night. We have a new older aspie. The guy went on and on about Mercury. I have had it with these alarmists.. Put the doctor in jail. I will lock the door myself. I Do believe many aspies have varying degrees of ODD.
Aspergers is genetic.... Public health and vaccines are important.

Its about Genes not Vaccines

My family's autism goes back to 1860 in the backwood Wallachian mountains.. my grand parents live on a ranch in Tx. They did not have vaccines nor thermometers...  My mother and I and my cousins and aunts never had the vaccines.. we have aspergers.  My daughter has had all her vaccines... she is NT but carries my genes.

Instead of blaming things.. take the time to work with ones child and help them adapt. That is  more constructive.

I have never had employment problems. In fact people are shocked to find out I have aspergers... I learned to survive. I thank God in a way I did not know.. I would hate to think my mother would waste time and my time with torches and pitch forks blaming a gene that has been in our family forever!  My mom had it.. we survived..we had jobs.. we got along with people as best we could..

The only reason I am responding to this thread is because all this hysteria is beginning to be pushed in my life and mostly by very uneducated people following quacks.  I think the time has come to start sueing people who are spreading false information and causing hysteria.. it will only hurt aspies in the long run

Monica Bice Wrote:

Timelord Wrote:

Oh here we go, the mercury militia at work again!

Actually, the MMR never had mercury, it would have killed the live viruses. I have great concerns over the use of combined live virus vaccines.

My daughter, who yes, was autistic from birth, had the MMR and varicella vaccines at 17 months. 3 weeks later, she developed a high fever, seizures, and odd bulls-eye rash. No tests were done at the ER other than to rule out strep throat.

Within 2 weeks of this event, she became completely disconnected, and started suffering more severe GI problems than ever. She had always had issues with dairy, and such, but after this event, she was pooping about 10x per day, horrible, watery bowels that had undigested food. She was soon screaming for hours a day in pain, from her gastric problems.

Her doctor had also noted that she stopped growing, and was losing weight.

An MRI revealed that she has pituitary damage, that is most likely caused by an infection of the brain.

After many lab tests, we soon learned that she has a Primary Immune Deficiency. We were also told by her immunologist that she should never have had live virus vaccines.

If one does not have a "typical" immune response, a live virus vaccine can replicate and cause the illness it was meant to prevent in the patient. That is why we no longer use a live polio vaccine, as it was crippling immune deficient children.

All of her doctors agree that she likely suffered encephalitis, most likely from the one of the vaccines.

Did it make her autistic, not hardly, but it did cause a regression, or "manifestation of symptoms". I think due to the fact that autism is hard to detect prior to this immunization, and parents see a sudden change after this vaccine, they assume the vaccine caused the autism. It may worsen the symptoms, but not cause it.

I truly feel this event worsened her autism. The good news is that since we have begun to treat her immune deficiency, her GI function has been restored, and she is much more alert, and no longer in pain. She can also read, and type over 300 words at 3!

Unfortunately, many with autism suffer from immune dysfunction and deficiency. This is a genetic condition, as is autism.

Until we have scientific proof about the MMR, which we do not, we really need to take a closer look at what damage it can do.

Unfortunately, the only studies discrediting the link, have been epidemiologic. The same type of science that convinced the world that tobacco smoking DID not cause lung cancer, until scientific studies proved otherwise. Even the Cochrane report (which refutes the link) says that the studies to date are largely inadequate, but the benefits of vaccination far exceed any risk involved.

A simple solution would be to administer each virus seprately, as combined live virus vaccines contain more of each virus than if seperate, to compensate for viral interference.

Ironically, my daughter is not immune to ANY of the vaccine preventable diseases she was vaccinated against, as her immune system could not mount an adequate response. The last thing I would want is vaccine uptake to drop, this would be catastrophic, especially for children like my daughter.

theosoph Wrote:

"Dr Wakefield listened to the parents about their children's disease, clinically investigated the children and reported what he found - where is the crime in that?" he said. "This trial undermines the possibility of any future independent scientific research that might challenge establishment policy."

Which I agree is a serious concern, but I don't know about this case... I don't know how he collected his data and how/where he reported the results. The appropriate way to have done this is to have made a database of his patients, noting the onset of autism and when they were vaccinated, and reported the conclusions in a scientific journal. Then other researchers could have done some studies to either confirm or reject the hypothesis, without the public ever having to worry about some unproven hypothesis. Perhaps doctors need more scientific and ethicial training in medical school... Anybody can come up with unproven hypotheses and with some case studies that might indicate that they're right and scare the hell out of the public, especially if they have some letters behind their name and claim to have researched it.

Monica Bice Wrote:

Unfortunately, the only studies discrediting the link, have been epidemiologic. The same type of science that convinced the world that tobacco smoking DID not cause lung cancer, until scientific studies proved otherwise.

Could you give any links for that? It's my understanding that smokers have several times the risk of nonsmokers, which is something that one would expect to show up in epidemiological studies. Btw, epidemiological studies ARE scientific studies... of course, the only type of study that can PROVE that smoking causes cancer is unethical to do and hence won't be done (you can't do a double-blind study on people, forcing one group of randomly selected people to smoke cigarettes and another randomly selected group to not smoke cigarettes and then see whether the incidence of cancer varies). But my understanding is that the epidemiological evidence is strong, and studies in rats and monkeys and such show that it causes lung cancer, so that that combination makes it extremely likely that smoking causes lung cancer in humans.

Monica Bice Wrote:

Unfortunately, many with autism suffer from immune dysfunction and deficiency. This is a genetic condition, as is autism.

Is that more common among people with ASDs? ('many' doesn't necessarily mean "more than average"). I've got pretty bad allergies and I used to be ill a lot, although I think the latter was mostly caused by me hating school.

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A simple solution would be to administer each virus seprately, as combined live virus vaccines contain more of each virus than if seperate, to compensate for viral interference.

Ironically, my daughter is not immune to ANY of the vaccine preventable diseases she was vaccinated against, as her immune system could not mount an adequate response. The last thing I would want is vaccine uptake to drop, this would be catastrophic, especially for children like my daughter.

Administering the vaccines separately may or may not be a solution. For some immunodeficient kids it might make just enough of a difference, but for others (most?) the difference would not be large enough. Nobody claims that vaccines are safe for everyone... and afaik it can't be determined in advance which kids are going to be the unlucky ones.

FWIW I had the mumps when I was 3 months old and handled it just fine... never had any side effects from vaccines either, afaik, other than with the rabies vaccine series when I was 17yo, and that was fairly minor, just frothing at the mouth and lots of sweating and such, and a little bit of confusion. Damn vaccine is only good for 2 years at that btw and also really expensive... I got it at the same time as the DTP and the Hep AB vaccines (and perhaps some other vaccine... I don't remember). They say that almost everyone gets those side effects though, whether combined with other vaccines or not.

Oh, and just a week after I got my last rabies vaccination I got an A average on my highschool finals... I think we've got a case study here... rabies vaccines cause good grades... vaccinate your highschool seniors now! </sarcasm>

Marieke Wrote:

Oh, and just a week after I got my last rabies vaccination I got an A average on my highschool finals... I think we've got a case study here... rabies vaccines cause good grades... vaccinate your highschool seniors now! </sarcasm>

Marieke Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! I have to remember that one! Thanks!

We had a guy at our support group going on and on and on about mercury.. its getting so old.

Well stated Marieke

Marieke Wrote:

theosoph Wrote:

"Dr Wakefield listened to the parents about their children's disease, clinically investigated the children and reported what he found - where is the crime in that?" he said. "This trial undermines the possibility of any future independent scientific research that might challenge establishment policy."

Which I agree is a serious concern, but I don't know about this case... I don't know how he collected his data and how/where he reported the results. The appropriate way to have done this is to have made a database of his patients, noting the onset of autism and when they were vaccinated, and reported the conclusions in a scientific journal. Then other researchers could have done some studies to either confirm or reject the hypothesis, without the public ever having to worry about some unproven hypothesis. Perhaps doctors need more scientific and ethicial training in medical school... Anybody can come up with unproven hypotheses and with some case studies that might indicate that they're right and scare the hell out of the public, especially if they have some letters behind their name and claim to have researched it.

I totally agree with Yetti. Autism has been around a heckuva lot longer than vaccines. And industrial pollution. And whatever other BS they throw at us. It's over ninety percent genetic. Proven.
Marieke, you say you hated school, but you obviously know your way around research design. I'm guessing you had some "we hate smart kids" kind of teachers. I was lucky to go to school after the Sputnik thing, when smart kids were valued.

If we knew where the hearing was taking place it would be a good guide, Gareth!

Your daugther is  beautiful.. but if these hysterics continue.. I will not get involved.. People think I am NT.. I am too old to put up with the "world is flat " mentality.  I think most of you are throwing the baby out with the bath water and doing more harm than good.   I can only imagine all the chldren who will die of disease because their young uneducated mothers feel the disease is better than public health and innoculations.

What you see as truth about vaccines I see millions of dead bodies of children who died from those diseases... the path to h*ll is often made with good intentions.. .You have no idea what you are doing nor do the others who push this dark ages mentality.

You feel for your child. I feel for all the children who died for not having those vaccines... How selfish... Those children were beautiful too.

You will not get support from this aspie on those issues... Look to interceding in abusive homes and change education.  Attacking scientists and good doctors and vaccines is nothing more than a witch hunt.

Monica Bice Wrote:

Yetti Wrote:

My family's autism goes back to 1860 in the backwood Wallachian mountains.. my grand parents live on a ranch in Tx. They did not have vaccines nor thermometers...��My mother and I and my cousins and aunts never had the vaccines.. we have aspergers.��My daughter has had all her vaccines... she is NT but carries my genes.

Most of my family, and my husband's, are one the spectrum. We all have asperger's. My daughter was diagnosed SEVERELY autistic. She is doig great now, as her immune function is now almost normal.

Yes, Asperger's is genetic, and so are immune deficiencies.

Look and see what the measles, mumps, ruebella, or chicken pox can do a developing brain. Now imagine what it can do to a developing autistic brain. It doesn't cause the autism, but can affect the brain just as it would an immune deficient neurotypical- which is not good either.

True, not all autistics are immune deficient. But the ones that are, are at a greater risk of neurologic sequelae from viruses, not just vaccine viruses either.

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Instead of blaming things.. take the time to work with ones child and help them adapt. That is��more constructive.��

One can put blame on something, and still work with a child and help them adapt. I suppose mothers of children that have been permanantly injured in car accidents work with their children and help them adapt, yet acknowledge that a car accident injured the child.

Check out my daughter- she is a gorgeous autistic princess!!! And she is doing wonderfully. Only 3 yr old I know that can type 300 words!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJJA3KupFEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCSP9533QvU

Quote:

I have never had employment problems. In fact people are shocked to find out I have aspergers... I learned to survive. I thank God in a way I did not know.. I would hate to think my mother would waste time and my time with torches and pitch forks blaming a gene that has been in our family forever!��My mom had it.. we survived..we had jobs.. we got along with people as best we could..

Unfortunately, many people with autism are not as successful as you. Especially those who have been pushed into the system by their parents, have had abuse/ neglect issues as children, those that have communication difficulties, and those who's autism is severe that they cannot work well in a nuerotypical world, in which we live.

Quote:

The only reason I am responding to this thread is because all this hysteria is beginning to be pushed in my life and mostly by very uneducated people following quacks.��I think the time has come to start sueing people who are spreading false information and causing hysteria.. it will only hurt aspies in the long run

Yes, I understand there is much hysteria about vaccines, and false science. But there is also many truths that get entirely no recognition, because this is a horrible debate.

Do know that the CDC, WHO and NIH all state that a person with an immune deficiency should not receive a live virus vaccine. Only the most severe immune deficiencies are usually noticed in infants. Yet, we give 4 live viruses at once, as early as 14 months old.

As far as hurting anyone, I do not think so. As long as people start doing their own research, and speaking the truth about vaccines, and what is medically accepted can happen. If just one aspie mom has her child tested for immune deficiency, heck, any mom has their child checked first, before live virus vaccination, and is spared, then it will help. I have spoken with moms who have children who got polio from their vaccines, and are crippled for life- from the vaccine. They encouraged the US government to switch to the vaccine we use now, which is NOT a live virus. They have VDPV, look it up on google. We just switched to the new vaccine in 2001. The live virus vaccine is still used in many countries, where the polio virus is still endemic.

Live virus vaccines are wonderful, and one of the greatest scientific advancements for healthy people, not for babies with a malfunctioning immune system. But, for those that need the protection, yet cannot have the protection from their own immune system, they must rely on every healthy baby to get immunized.

An actual full blown measles attack could kill my daughter. The ones at risk for death from these diseases are the immune deficient.

I talked with a guy who was a visitor from Mexico.. yes there are successful middle class business people from there.. the word is about USA is our young people are spoiled and very uneducated about the past and the world. I agreed with him.. We have raised a society of naivety regarding human disease... consequently people are ignornatly attacking vaccines...

IF you have ever had to hold the corpse of a dead child like I had to do, because of disease they now have vaccine for... you would change your hysteria about them. These dead children were beautiful too and far more vast in numbers than responses to vaccines.