Aspies For Freedom

Ah, reading things in their entirety, a longtime problem of mine!  Even on my (very helpful) ADD meds, which I started just 3 years ago at age 38, I don't have the patience to read things completely from beginning to end.  I wish I had known how to motivate myself to study, much less anyone else!  I went to college but probably would have done better going to a technical school...there are some very smart people making good money in technical fields!    All I can advise is: pay attention to your daughter's interests, to the things she does well and the environments in which she thrives, and be open to all career possibilities.  Maybe your daughter has a learning disability which has not yet been diagnosed, maybe she could be helped by tutoring, but maybe she is (like me and like many other people) very bright without being well suited to academic life.  I hope you and she continue to seek guidance for her to make the most of her unique gifts.   

As for the volunteer work, one thing popped into my head: if your daughter is cleaning cages at the animal shelter, the ammonia smell may be overwhelming after 20 minutes or so, and she may need to get away from it.  (I have no sensory issues myself, but even I can be overcome by fumes to the point of needing to leave the room to recuperate, as I found out a few years ago when I had the bright idea to clean my kitchen floor with undiluted bleach! )  Also, if she goes to the shelter after school, she may simply be too tired or stressed from the rest of her day.  You really would have to ask her what is going on.  Best wishes...    

My parents tried everything to get me to do more about homework and studying etc in secondary school as well, and they failed .
I have a lot of trouble reading large amounts of text if it's not something I'm expressly interested in (i.e. obsessed).
I got through secondary school with barely-passed grades for most subjects, except 2 or 3 that I liked a lot.

Things probably work differently over here with regards to further education (no college etc), but I went to university afterwards, chose a study-subject that interested me a lot, and never again had as much trouble as in secondary school. I flew through it (with regards to the subject matter, the other aspects like internship and all the social stuff you're suddenly required to do were a different story).

It's possible that even if she reads the material more, if she's not very interested, it won't stick anyway. I had that problem too. If I liked it, I barely had to read it once. If I wasn't very interested, I could read it all 5 times and it didn't help very much. But I'm not sure if that goes for everyone of course.

Of course, all this doesn't really help you at all in getting her more motivated or finding any way of getting her to look at the material more... sorry  :S.

I've heard people say it a lot; "The motivation has to come from you."

Now I'll be the first to say that this is where the catch comes in, for myself at least. Self motivation is difficult if you aren't particularly interested in what you're supposed to be getting motivated about.

When I was in high school (late 80's) there wasn't 'Asperger's' there were learning difficulties and 'difficult students'. I was the latter through most of my schooling. I wasn't good at tests and exams (I still have somewhat of a passionate dislike for them) and I couldn't really motivate myself to do homework.

I did, and still do have trouble reading large blocks of information (which is why I break up my posts the way I do because I'm not the only one) in my late twenties a neuropsychologist linked my difficulty with reading to the fact that my eyes/brain don't scan in lines like most people. This slows me down because I'm constantly backtracking or skipping key words. I did a speed reading course while I was still at high school and that does seem to have helped a bit (my reading speed didn't improve greatly but it improved enough to satisfy the requirements). Now if I'm reading important information from a printed media, I trace with my finger or slide a piece of paper down the page. This seems to help me get the information into my head and keep it there too.

Also related to my eyes jumping all over the place, I can't easily sit and read for long periods (unless I'm really interested in what I'm reading then I can't stop myself) because I get eye strain. I have to mark where I'm at with my finger usually, then look away or get up and move around. The catch here is if I'm not particularly interested I then have to back track a sentence from where I left of, or worse a paragraph, in order to pick it up again.

Probably doesn't help you much but that's where I have a problem with reading materials.


On the matter of further education; I never would have made it at University (College in the US). In my experience - mostly talking to people that have done university - the way things are presented is from a much more theoretical standpoint. Not to mention University professors tend to lecture at large groups of students for hours and it's up to the student to make sure they have the notes. (Sure these days they can be downloaded from the department's website or accessed in audio format via the library.)
Technical/Community College, on the other hand has worked for me a lot better. The focus is more on the practical skills needed to undertake a particular job and hence a lot more 'hands on'. For me this is a godsend because I learn better by doing then being told the 'theory' of how. Courses at Technical College also tend to be of shorter duration. As a point of comparison; I'm currently studying a course in 3d animation through a Technical College as opposed to a University. I have spoken to people studying similar courses at a University and I have done more actual work in a year then they do in two. At University they load your schedule with extra subject matter and required material - Art theory, Life drawing and the like - before you even get in and start using the computer software. The course I'm doing at Technical College, however, we jump right into using the software right from day one.


Hmm... I've probably ranted on about myself here, without really answering your question. In short, Check out the Technical/Community College angle as well as University. It might suit they way your daughter learns a lot better. Intelligence aside, it's more about 'how' a person learns in my Opinion.

I should probably note that I have a learning disability, and I've spent a fair measure of time looking at how I learn, so mileage may vary.

Wow... so many interesting posts I had to reread the original thread.

You probably won't get her to read the material before she takes the test if she doesn't want to do it. AS or not. I'd be curious to find out what her answer would be to why she doesn't want to read it, or whatever it is that bothers her. You're not going to be able to solve the big problems, but you can help her find ways to get around them.

I know I myself had huge problems doing homework or studying for tests. I think for me a lot of it was that whole "executive dysfunction" problem. I couldn't get started and get into "homework" mode... even if I did other homework. Some classes just made my head hurt just thinking about working on it.

I did learn one thing that helped with that though, I read or worked on some of it on the way home on the bus or as class was wrapping up. That way I was already involved in the project so it wasn't such a big fence to jump over. With schoolwork (and in real life!) I feel like a lot of sucessfully maneuvering with AS problems isn't really struggling with the problem but cheating your brain out of it. (If I start the project before I "start" the project I'm not really starting it now...) Also, if she's just going to skim over the text, can she use a highlighter and highlight important parts. I have a very visual memory and knocking important sentences off a page really helps me out a lot. Has to be a good color though.

I know that whole "potential" thing and never quite got it either, I remember my parents droning on and on about living up to it. If I'm not living up to it than maybe that's not really my potential... Anyway, I think that's great if you can get her out of the ACT/SAT thing, that will probably help a lot. But at the same time, maybe a junior college could be good for her to see what college was all about, therefore a little step before the big step? Though, admittedly, i would have been offended at the thought of a sub-par school myself.

With the volunteering... maybe there's a different way she can be involved with the animals that's not cleaning their cages? I know volunteers don't usually get the pleasant jobs, but I would think that if she's not doing the work than she probably isn't much help to the shelter. I've gotten myself into situations like that, I'm usually thinking to myself, "I'm not really helping, but I really can't keep doing this." I would have gotten pretty down about it. Maybe she should find a different place to volunteer that's more friendly to her problems?

I didn't do very well in HS, I think I graduated with a 2.75 (yikes!) But when I got to college I was able to focus on what I really was interested and excited about and I graduated Suma Cum Laude... Though to take the edge off of that astounding statement I'll say I did get a BFA, so its not really SO spectacular. But people with AS seem to do GREAT with their interests. Also, I am married and have two daughters... and not doing too much with that faboo education, c'est la vie!

I did the college thing, graduating 1992 at 22, tried the job hunt (very bad in 1992), went to grad school in 1993 and finished in 1996.

I did get interviews, but presumably due to the AS (dxed six weeks before graduation in grad school), no offers.  I had studied undergraduate and graduate sociology (deep down inside I needed to learn the ways of American society in a conscious, educated manner, I can't learn social rules by just looking at people), but applied quantitative research didn't happen except for a while at the University.

That's OK.  The Army trained for a conventional war with the Soviets in Europe, and they never got to, either.

After that, a simple community college certificate program, paid for by the state of Maryland, got me the skills needed for my current job, 8 years, as a computer programmer.

The best single class I ever had was probably Microsoft Office 97.  I've done more Access, Word, and Excel than I can shake a stick at.  But I'm especially top heavy on Visual BASIC programming in Access and Excel, when not building database tables or queries or writing Web pages, or doing whatever else the conference planning people think they can't do because it is a "computer" thing.  They're all female.  I wonder if it was gender-based prejudice keeping them from doing the computer thing.  For the singular purpose of making a good meeting, you need organizational and social ability, and it really doesn't hurt to be young and attractive.  Things like looks and social ability, computers don't care.

I've learned that I can conquer any challenge with enough effort.  I find that Asperger makes my learning of (algebra, geometry, trigonometry, biology, chemistry, physics, Latin, Spanish so much easier, even after 20 years I can still use the math skills and converse in Spanish) computers, especially, so much easier.

Asperger is generally a gift, the ill effects having been long in the past (bullying, impoliteness, though I don't seem to attract ladies any better now than I did then), unless some NTs want to make social coordination an issue in a job interview or dating.

I am in a similar position with my second youngest son. He rarely attends school and only completes (or even attempts) work that he chooses to do. I also went through problems with my older boys and my daughter. At the time I was feeling torn between my desire to help my kids through their turmoil, and pressure from society/authorities to force them into a conventional path. I'm not certain that I got the balance entirely right - but now, one is a qualified concert pianist, one is the manager of the most successful Wing Tsun school in Europe and has at least three black belts in different disciplines, and the third is in the last few months of a degree in French and Politics. Not one of them completed high school in the traditional manner but all of them are my friends.

It is my experience that getting frustrated only makes things worse - it puts up a needless barrier between mother and child. I would throw away any expectations you have about her future, as it will be up to her to live it according to her dreams, not someone else's, and bring yourself back to the here-and-now of her life. She really needs to know that you are on her side and that she can ask for help when she is foundering without getting criticism from anyone else (we Aspies are far too good at criticising ourselves).

It sounds to me that she is on the edge of depression and really needs a break from the pressure to succeed - she has the rest of her life to do that. Please hold out a loving hand to pull her back from the brink. Go and do something fun with her. And don't be too hard on yourself - sometimes a mother can be pulled into the pressure vortex too. You have not 'failed as a mother' if your offspring choose a different path through life to the one you have imagined for them. You have succeeded if they can trust you to support them whenever they ask for support, and if they know that they can come to you with their worries and you will be sympathetic.

This is one of the most sensible statements I have ever read re: the whole issue of "wasted potential."  Parents and teachers seem to assume that all intelligent children, especially the verbally gifted ones (early readers with big vocabularies), are destined for academic greatness and stellar careers, and that just is not always the case.  I am 41, can't drive (too scatter-brained), work in a low-skilled food service job (damn lucky to have kept it for 19 years), and barely read the newspaper, yet because I am articulate, people tell me, "Oh, you're so smart, you could do anything!"  I heard it all through school and still hear it today; even my vocational-rehab counselor said it a few times before I explained my limitations.  I am good at taking IQ tests and I am a good talker; beyond that I am a slow learner of new skills and in fact quite ditzy a lot of the time, lacking in "common sense."  I can do good work but I need structure and a predictable routine and concrete physical tasks; I simply don't have the interest or the attention span for the kind of academic career I was raised to pursue.  Of course, that is just my story; Ellen's daughter may still blossom into a scholar if she has the right support.  I just had to point out that there are many different kinds of intelligence, and many of us who were nagged and shamed throughout school for our seeming failure to "live up to potential" may not have been equipped to do what our parents and teachers assumed we could do.

I am glad you are open to a less conventional educational plan for your daughter...and as for draftsmanship, I imagine she could learn that if she wanted to.  Anyway, she sounds as if she has some great talent and I'll bet she will do very well with the right support.

well...my mother always tried to get me to revise,and i wouldnt.
luckily,i never needed to...just seemed to be able to hold the facts (although,oddly,after the exams were over kaput-knowledge was mostly gone,i dont remember thing from Business,alot of my Science knowledge is gone...odd)

Ellen wrote:
"An "expert" in Atlanta, who I trust, told me that for an Aspie reading a one-page description of anything was like an NT reading 5 (FIVE) pages on the same subject at the end of the day yet when tired. "

What? AS is not a learning disability and dyslexia is not considered to be an aspect of autism or AS, but of course people can have both AS and dyslexia. Some aspies are terrible spellers, but some are also extremely good spellers.

I consider myself and my husband to be undiagnosed aspies. We are both very capable readers and writers. I have a university education. Our kids have all been identified as intellectually gifted and have autistic characteristics. Their reading abilities are at an elite level, something like in the top few percentiles of reading test results compared with other kids of their ages. There is also grapheme-colour synaesthesia in our family, which is thought to be possibly associated with good literacy ability. Autistic people like us are not diagnosed or studied by the so-called AS experts. The "experts" only get to meet and study autistic kids who have or make problems. That may be why the experts make so many utterly absurd generalizations about people who have AS.

Ellen wrote:
"But yes, I agree with you the "experts" are only going to see the problem kids. I doubt Steven Spielberg or Bill Gates was hauled to an "expert". "

Actually, I don't mean to be argumentative, but according to the book "The plot to get Bill Gates: an irreverent investigation of the world's richest man and the people who hate him." by Gary Rivlin, Gates' mother took him to see a psychiatrist when he was 11 because she was concerned that he was remote and shy, but apparently no diagnosis followed, and there have been persistent rumours that Spielberg has been diagnosed with AS by an Australian AS "expert".

If you take a look at my famous aspies list there are very intelligent and accomplished people in it who have been students in private "special ed" schools and one who was a reform school student. Some of the best and brightest famous autists have had quite clinical and stigmatizing childhoods.

Has anyone pointed put to you that some aspies simply don't read fiction because we don't think fictional works are terribly important compared to useful subjects of study such as mathematics and science? I'm one of a number of aspies in our family who rarely or never reads fiction or literary works.

A belated thank you to Ellen for that information about famous people. I don't think I'll post my big list here again as it's grown ridiculously large. Here's a link to it:
http://incorrectpleasures.blogspot.com/2...rtant.html

I'm thinking of compiling an abbreviated alphabetized version of the list. I'm obsessed.

Some years ago somebody sent me this "joke" about Bill Gates when he was child on camp and it was a series of letters to his parents. The impression it gave was of a child who disliked touch and wanted to interact mainly with his computer.

I don't think it is much point to pressure kids into doing courses they really don't want to do. They will drop out sooner or later and the time and money will be mostly wasted. Better to encourage them into their areas of interest instead.

Well, firstly, schools have learnt that anyone who is not academically gifted tends to have a concentration span of only about 45 minutes before needing a break-so she is half way there. The best thing to do would be to let her read until her concentration is over, and then try to push it by an extra couple of minutes each time until you are up to 45. If you help her to plan a timetable that would get her through the work by the exam and build in time to mess up then you should be able to get her through all the material as most students are just learning how to structure their own lives and mess it up anyway.

Secondly, you might want to use audio books or diagrams or get her to read out loud, or make notes or draw mind maps. If she gets by just "glancing" at the material, that suggests that some other sensory inputs are sticking in her mind-maybe she learns best by hearing the spoken words? You have to find what sticks best and make it more interesting. Ask her questions while she is reading so that she thinks about the material and make sure she understands it and isn't memorising.

If you can get her to teach you the material, that is usually the best way to revise, because to teach it to you in a way that makes sense she will have to really understand it and be able to articulate it and she will be using all of her learning inputs-auditory, visual, kinaesthetic.

Good luck.