Aspies For Freedom

1. do you have any suggestions on how to motivate an Aspie teen, girl, to at least read school material at least once, in its entirety (or almost) then review before a test?

I am so frustrated with my daughter. An "expert" in Atlanta, who I trust, told me that for an Aspie reading a one-page description of anything was like an NT reading 5 (FIVE) pages on the same subject at the end of the day yet when tired. (May explain why she constantly asks us what the definition of words are rather than looking them up. I think her vocabulary as a result is really suffering. At one time she had a large vocabulary, but seems to be backtracking, but that's another post someday.)

I UNDERSTAND her huge processing problem but I feel to do better than barely pass in some subjects she has to at least read the material once. I think she is merely glancing at it. She is so bright she is able to get by doing that but I am worried she won't get into college at the current rate she is going along (she is too bright for a technical school or junior college imo). She doesn't do well on standardized tests so I won't make her take the SAT or ACT. Just AM NOT going there, you know?

2. Also how do you AGAIN motivate her to work an entire hour at her volunteer activity. She is usually good for only one, 20-minute task, then sits in the waiting room declining all offers to continue with helping. This volunteer activity (an animal shelter) was her idea, by the way and she seems to enjoy it to a certain extent. She does love animals...

THANKS for any help guys!

thanks for your suggestions.

Re school, I think she may just not be well suited for academics- its just too demanding on too many levels. But like a typical Aspie she is intellectually VERY curious so it's so ironic. And I don't mean intellectually curious ONLY about what interests her- she is just generally intellectually curious I think. It runs in the family. My father was an intellectual.

I don't think she has a learning disability per se.

I've already been told that sophomore year in high school will be difficult because they move more into abstractions, symbolism, that kind of thing. Luckily she goes to a fairly easy school by national standards, not very demanding really compared to the big city, high income/achievement area high school her brother went to.

One teacher said start reading the Cliff Notes for all novels assigned in class, which we will do. I'm sure they are online now....

What got her at the animal shelter was just the overall smell, which she says she is now used to. I told her the first ten minutes would be the worst.

I just feel strongly that if I can get her to read the material more, even though it is something she dislikes doing, her understanding of the material and her grades will improve.

I am encouraged you finished college, very encouraged!

i had some similar problems, after read for 40 minutes i got tired, and on a work i got distant after 1 hour or more, this was stronger for me few years ago, how old is she? this usually goes decreasing with the age, and she needs to learn control this a little, of course is very difficult, for the readings maybe she can connect what she is reading with some thing she likes, and is better if she study a career related with the threads that she likes, like veterinarian if she loves animals, or another thing, she will be very good in that if she likes believe me

Okay, I actually *am* good at standardized tests, reading for fairly long periods of time (extremely long periods of time if the subject interests me), getting high grades etc, but I'd like to comment anyway.

I dropped out of college. College is held in too high of an esteem in modern American society, I believe. For some reason everybody thinks everyone should have a college degree, which is bullshit. You can be a happy and worthwhile member of society without a BA/BSc. I was going to go back to community college to get an HVAC degree but ended up pregnant instead, so that didn't happen. Did you know that a lot of blue collar jobs actually get paid more than a lot of jobs requiring college degrees? Average starting salary for HVAC is $30k, average salary with a few years or more experience is $46k, and if you want to earn more you could start your own HVAC business... I've seen tons of jobs requiring a BA that start at $20k... Now, personally I don't care about the money all that much, just pointing out that monetarily it's not necessarily a bad choice. Just let her do what makes her happy instead of focussing on whether she's too intelligent for trade school or not. I was indoctrinated by my parents that I was too intelligent for that and university made me miserable, I'm really glad to be out, despite my IQ that's officially been tested as "well over 150" on one occasion and as "144" on another. It doesn't matter, happiness does.

I was a terrible student at high school. I often didn't even bother turning up to school, I never did any homework and I spent very little time paying attention in class (when I actually was there), but I was a very clever kid and because of that I was able to get good grades anyway. I had severe procrastination issues (and I suppose I still do to a large extent) and my head hurt very quickly if I tried to work on something I didn't want to do (this is still the case). If she is anything like I was as a teenager, you can yell, threaten, beg, bribe and use voodoo dolls as much as you like and it will do no good. I finished high school with good results, qualified for university, couldn't be bothered going so deferred, turned up the next year, couldn't be bothered working and threw the course in after two weeks. I spent another few years kicking around, having a good time and doing some productive things but nothing career oriented.

Four years after finishing high school, I was in my early 20's, and because of experiences I'd had since high school I viewed the world very differently. I applied for uni, was accepted (I had to be quite crafty to get in! ) and my attitude was completely different. I studied hard, I loved it, I was successful and everyone viewed me as someone who fit into the academic world extremely well. I think the best years of my life so far were the first couple of years at uni, I loved the experience so much, the whole situation was so perfect for me.

My advice (keep in mind that I don't know you or your daughter, so feel free to take this with a whole handful of salt) is to very gently encourage her without trying to force her (you'll just get her to dig her heels in and make things worse). It is quite likely that she just isn't ready to work hard and only time and life experience will change that. It may not be something she can be convinced to change, or change just by choosing to. I strongly suggest that you support her in doing what she wants to do, rather than trying to get her to do what you think is best. She is much more likely to be sufficiently motivated in her own endeavours than school, etc (although it is concerning that she is not terribly keen at the animal shelter). I'd suggest that rather than an aspergian finding it five times more difficult to read than a NT, it may be that they have more difficulty doing things they aren't interesting, but if it's what they love, they'll do it more easily than an NT.

Good luck!

I remember a teacher of hers making my daughter read textbooks by using a ruler or page. I don't think she uses that now, but maybe we could re-introduce the concept!  So thanks for that tip.

Yeah, her father tends to believe a technical college is the way to go. She made a D in art though so I'm not sure she could handle computer animation, what do you think? When she was younger I thought her drawings were incredible, though! Lots of things going on, much detail, lots of different colors- complex, though she is not a good draftsman, but then who is? She loves video fighting games and music the most.

We are going to do high school in five years instead of 4 to lighten her load- a recent decision we made that she has agreed to.

PS Hope's interests are fighting video games, music (listening only, but occasional singing), hermaphrodites!, old Hollywood stars like Marilyn Monroe, Lauren Bacall, Ginger Rogers, a lot of things Asian, animals, ancient Greece and Rome, also Atlantis. She is hung up on a couple of celebrity young men too. She would give anything to meet Haley Joel Osment, for example...

At the shelter they let her also groom and pet the cats, so it's not all drudgery.

Technical schools do have many advantages, you're right- shorter classes, no endless list of prerequisites, etc. I printed out a list of the careers available and the only one right now I think she would be interested is some sort of computer tech maybe. She spends many hrs. on the computer researching things she's interested in so I could see her as an MIS tech or something. Maybe her uncle could even get her a job upstate as he is an MIS tech.

She has told us and the teachers at school she wants to be an airport manager probably for the travel benefits! Sensory- and people-wise I know this would be a disaster though.

IT IS PRIMARILY BECAUSE OF HER INTELLECTUAL CURIOSITY THAT I AM HOLDING OUT ON REGULAR COLLEGE, LIBERAL ARTS.

Only two years ago a co-worker told me her daughter would never go to college but then I met her and saw her intelligence and confidence and said, Heidi, don't rule her out just yet." This child has dyslexia but now makes decent grades and their whole outlook is shifting, mother and daughter!

My own family is proof you don't 1) have to make good grades or 2) do everything on a set timetable to be successful.  Both my brothers had trouble in school (though one has a high IQ I think) and one graduated from college late, in his early thirties, but now one is a successful lawyer (his own firm) and the other is a tenured professor at a nearby medical college!!!!

I am not impossible with her or too pushy- my own parents EXPECTED good grades from me and would occasionally compliment me on them (I graduated in the top 10% of my private school class) and I know other parents who gave their kids money if they did well in school but my bottom line is all I ask is you do your best. Period. If your best is a D, then fine, we did the best we could. The problem is I can't get at or understand when and if my Aspie daughter IS doing the best she can.

She is also pretty materialistic and into money so I tend to tie future endeavors like getting some sort of degree with that. I will say things like "Do you think I could afford a trip to Amsterdam if I had never gotten my degree, gotten my current job?"  I am trying to help her make connections between all the "goodies" in life with working steadily towards them, if you know what I mean...

My son now knows how hard it is to get by having lived three years in a shared apartment with three other boys while in college. I think for a while he was living on ramen noodles when his cafeteria plan hadn't kicked in, but I digree.

I can tell when she is motivated- she spends a lot of time on an assignment. Her whole body language is different then too- she is quieter and engrossed.

Other assignments she completes in record time so I am pretty sure she just doesn't want to be bothered with it. She is also very literal- if they tell her 1000 words, she only does 1000 words, and makes it handwritten unless I tell her to type it.

Also, even once she "learns" something I am not sure she still completely understands it. I have read other Aspies talk about this problem as well. She has poor short term memory if she isn't interested which materializes into poor long-term memory.  All this really hurts after a while because the state-mandated end of year tests count towards their final grade and if she still doesn't understand the material then it hurts her. Thank God they only do those silly tests at the end of the year and not every quarter.

I just don't understand her current dilemma with grades since she completed elem. and middle school with decent grades.

But this year was all about finding her social niche too, which is more important. Socially she is doing great and does have friends. Some of the kids treat her with great respect even- I know because I witnessed it last night at a 4th of July celebration.

So, in the final analysis, just being an Aspie I think automatically translates into a learning disability, you know what I mean?

Cool. I did a year of highschool in Thailand immediately after graduating highschool. You could ask her whether she'd be interested in something like that, you need to be 15-18yo. I know this probably sounds like a disaster to happen (putting an Aspie in a host family in a foreign country, alone, letting her go to school there), but in a sense it's easier than you'd think... whereas here people expect you to be normal, when you're an exchange student in such a foreign culture they don't expect you to be normal and just think that your weirdness is due to being foreign. When you overload they think it's just because of the culture shock and missing your parents and friends etc. I'm not going to claim it was an easy year, but it was very interesting and I'm glad I did it. Of course, some Aspies have more issues then others so I'm not claiming that it's a good idea for every Aspie (just like I wouldn't claim it's a good idea for every NT), but despite what you might initially think it actually can work for Aspies.

Why not sit down with her and look at that list together? Also, explore with her what education etc she'd need to become an airport manager without being too negative about it... as she learns more about it, perhaps talks with an airport manager, she might realize herself that it's not for her.

Yeah, and because I'm a housewife I can't do anything more intellectually satisfying than watch soapseries on tv. </sarcasm>

Bullshit.

You don't need college to satisfy your intellectual curiosities at all. There are libraries, there's the internet, you can buy used (or new) (text)books, you can have intellectual hobbies such as computer programming or building robots or writing literature, etc.

Btw, I'm personally not altogether all that fond of liberal arts courses in college... I'm good at science and math stuff because it's concrete: either the answer is correct or it's not, whereas liberal arts are just too vague... they confuse me. I like reading about all kinds of liberal arts things but I just can't deal with test/homework questions on the topic. Your daughter may be different, but I don't like my grades to depend on some subjective professor's opinions.

That's the catch, isn't it? My parents had the same attitude when I was growing up... all they expected me to do was "my best". I don't even know how to assess myself on that matter, let alone that others could assess me for that. One of the problems is the long-term versus short-term "best"... You want your "best" to be sustainable. I can study 80 hours a week for several weeks, but then I burn out. Not sustainable. Problem is, I'm not even sure that 40 hours a week is sustainable. I really fare rather badly under forced studying, whether I'm forcing myself or being forced.

The only solution I see is to assume she's doing her best whatever she does. Theoretically, she wants to do what's best for her because it's her life and she'll have to live with the consequences of her decisions. You might want to make sure she understands that, but she probably knows that already. One of the things that made me really think a lot about what "doing my best" is and how to determine what's "best" for me, how other people determined that for me in the past etc was by reading a lot about unschooling. Not saying you should unschool your daugher but reading about it could make you think a lot about some assumptions present in our society. I hear that the "Teenage Liberation Handbook" is really good but I haven't gotten my hands on that one yet. Any book by John Holt would be a good choice to read for sure.

You don't however need a college degree to get a well-paying job, and plenty of people with college degrees have pretty lousy-paying jobs or like GuessWho just can't find a job with their college degree. Hell, she could just go and marry a guy that makes six figures and have plenty of spending money... (not saying she should do that, but if you tell her that she needs a degree to have money you're lying because there are other ways).

Elementary and middle school are more concrete than highschool. Also, as you state below, she's been busy doing other important stuff, so that might have distracted her from working as hard at school. Btw, social skills are often at least as important in the job market as a degree is.

Great! I'm happy for her. I spent highschool lonely and depressed.

I think the school system automatically translates in a learning disability for most people in it...

Yeah, her cousin did 6 months abroad after high school and it was life changing. He even did some charity work in India.  I hope we have the money. A foreign exchange student in Thailand is a wonderful idea, but I doubt her Dad would go for it because he is CONSTANTLY, and I mean constantly, worried about her personal safety, about her being sexually molested, etc. He probably would be more receptive to an organized travel group with TONS of supervision.

She is going away for 5 days to a spiritual retreat soon with other teen boys and girls and he is worried sick about that because there won't be the constant supervision you find in regular camps (it's wilder and woolier in some ways). But I put my foot down and told him to lighten up!

By intellectually curious I simply meant I think liberal arts schools offer more opportunities to study culture than technical schools which are much more pragmatic. The latter teach skills rather than more academic, abstract thought. Hope is much more into abstract thought than practical skills, that's all.

I didn't need to go over careers with her because her high school spends an entire year studying personal aptitudes and careers. It's called High School 101 in SC. Remember she's a teen and won't go over much of anything WITH me at this point. I usually let her come to her own conclusions - if it's MY idea it is usually rejected on its face value: That's just the way teens are.

What's at play here is society asks a 16 yr. old female Aspie with a mental/emotional age of 10 or 12 at best to do the work a 16 year old is expected to do. Impossible! That's why we are going to investigate prolonging the high school experience for her so it's easier for everyone! She will take a lighter load starting next fall I think or soon after....

thanks for all your suggestions. I learn so much by talking to other Aspies to the point where I don't visit the other chatrooms (NTs) so much anymore.

I think you may be underestimating your daughter's ability, while at the same time trying to push her too hard, and in the wrong direction. I think it's important for everyone, particularly apsergians, to follow their own path, not a path chosen by someone else (well, okay, some people will no doubt benefit by being lead because they don't have the ability to find their own direction, but they're the exception and your daughter doesn't sound like she fits it).

I noticed you saying that she sometimes completes assignments in a short amount of time. I certainly used to be like that. All my work in high school was done in a tiny amount of time, and I must admit it wasn't that much different at university. I'd sometimes complete weeks, even months of work in a few hours, and usually to a high standard. I always knew that if I started a bit earlier and put more time in, my work would be quite spectacular, but even now I can very rarely bring myself to do that and probably will never be able to. For example, I am a professional writer, I still find myself leaving my work until a day or two before the publishers need the work before I start writing it. I know my work will be much better if I start a week or two earlier and draft it once or twice, adding a few bits and pieces in, etc, but it just doesn't happen, it's just not me. I don't think any amount of pestering from anyone could possibly change me in that way, unless it was someone I was close to talking about particular projects (eg, "do that article right now, come on, stop chatting on the forum, write, write, now!") but if that was to happen I'd quickly learn to keep that person away from knowing what work I had to do. My parents etc pushing me in this way would have only been detrimental, and it's the same now. Your daughter isn't necessarily me, so she may be able to become more dilligent than I ever could, but I strongly recommend that you accept that she may not, and definately don't try to force her in this way.

I very strongly disagree. For me, it was a double edged sword. Increased ability to learn and be academically successful, with a decreased ability or desire to work, even though the ultimate goal (good grades) was appealing. Overall, it probably helped me greatly, because while I wasn't interested, the ability allowed me to get the work done in a tiny amount of time. For some people, yes, it becomes a learning disability (probably mostly because of the style of education we have available), but for some it is of great benefit. Remember that some absolute geniuses are/were aspergian; the condition can help some people to acheive spectacularly.

Don't confuse academic success with financial success. Having a good formal education gives you something to fall back on, but in most cases that's all it really does (there are always basic jobs available for 'uneducated' people anyway). Many of the most financially successful people didn't even bother to finish high school because they were so driven that school was just a distraction and something which got in the way of their goals. I spent years at university, I was quite successful, I have a bunch of letters after my name and I've used them for effectively nothing - I don't even put them after my name on my published work. Studying at uni definately helped me to become a better person, but only because I loved my course and felt good about what I was doing. I think I could have gained the same benefit from any other activity I enjoyed and felt proud of. Encourage her in whatever she wants to persue (as long as it isn't completely stupid!), I think that's one of the best things a parent can do.

I should go sleep, but I want to make a quick comment about the (possible) detrimental effects of being diagnosed with a *disorder*. My brother was diagnosed with PDD-NOS about 7.5 years ago, whereas I never was diagnosed with anything... I think my parents believe I'm normal except for having no friends whatsoever and being weird in many ways, but not *disordered*. I did a year of highschool in Thailand, then lived a year on my own in a different city from my parents while attending university, then got married to an American so I moved to America. My parents let me do these things, although they weren't for my marriage (they were afraid of it not working out), but they let me. I doubt they would've let me if I'd been diagnosed with PDD-NOS or Asperger's... they don't dare to let my brother stay home alone for more than a week despite the fact that he's 20yo and has succesfully stayed home alone for up to a week several times before. Afaict there's no reason whatsoever that he can't stay home alone longer than that... They told me they'd come visit me and the baby over fall break instead of this summer because that way they could put my brother in a group home for a week so he'd have to stay home alone for only one week instead of two. So... ask yourself and your husband whether her diagnosis influences what you two allow/expect her to do. It's okay to be influenced by someone's actual skills etc, it's another thing to be influenced by a diagnosis.

(Okay, perhaps this was too much of a rant, but w/e.)

In America you don't need much education if you are intensely entrepreneurial. I doubt my Aspie daughter will be entrepreneurial as she loves structure and being told what to do step by step. Maybe when she's older she will find the strength and drive to be entrepreneurial, though I doubt it.

Heck, the only entrepreneurial person in the entire family other than one brother who is a lawyer is my husband, who is a professional writer. It's not in our genes. I dont' hold it up as some sort of socio-economic superiority either as there are problems aplenty in going down that road, as so many businesses fail eventually...

I hate labels too and luckily my daughter was incorrectly dx ADHD for years. If she had been dx AS from the git go the schools might have put her in a self-contained classroom which would have been a disaster. Being "ADHD" allowed her to be mainstreamed, allowed her to learn social skills at a young age (pre-school helped too- there was NO pre-school when I was coming up and I remember being scared to death of kindergarten!).

As a result of the above I am not big on home-schooling either though in some cases it seems necessary....

I suppose it is possible she could be an airport manager- miracles can and do happen every day and she is making enormous progress/growing every day. And she is probably stronger willed than I, than most actually,  so she has that in her favor....

I know about parental pressure- my Dad wanted me to be a physician in the worst way and when I got a masters in city planning he just didn't get it...

All I know is I believe in her BIG TIME. She has enormous potential. All I am trying to do is give her every advantage....Life is tough for NTs much less for those with any sort of deficit, mental, emotional, what have you. If I can lighten her academic load, if I can teach her study skills, it doesn't mean I am forcing her to bend to my will it simply means I am trying to give her the tools to succeed.

I knew when I posted this question last week I would be picked apart by people thinking I was coercing my daughter to make good grades or else, but I know her very well now and am only trying to help her learn some discipline. The academic subjects will come and go and mostly be forgotten, but self-control, discipline stay with you always.

I think it is good discipline to at least read the material ONCE- that is not an unreasonable request.

I think Marieke has raised some very good points, many of which I was going to make myself, but I won't retype them all. I think it's particuarly important to understand the concept of your daughter not being at school because she chose to, but because the system pushed her into it. She doesn't see the world as you do, and I like Marieke's analogy of you being put into a situation where you were forced to learn about things you thought were completely irrelevant, which you and those teaching you knew you would forget. Also the point about you trying to give her the tools to succeed equating 'forcing' or 'pressuring' her was a good one. I know that it is very difficult for parents not to pressure their kids into doing what they think is best, particularly when they are adolescents, because you've just spent their whole life in a situation where giving them complete guidance was appropriate and now they're behaving in a way which you see as imperfect. The reality is that everyone, NT or otherwise starts to become their own person at that stage in life, and deviates from what their parents might want them to do. I know this is difficult for you and I don't envy those in situations like yours, although on the other hand, it must be exciting to watch her grow up and become who she will be

Thanks for all your replies, guys!!!

No two Aspies are alike, but over and over in the chatrooms and in the literature I keep hearing the following:

Aspies listen, but must first stop their own on-going thoughts and put those aside so they can address and answer yours. I just don't think NTs on the whole are constantly living in their own world from an interior dialogue point of view. I am only that way when obsessed with something myself, say a huge personal problem of some kind.....

Aspies are primarily visual thinkers so the written word just doesn't enthrall them that much (unless it is something they are interested in).

But yes, I agree with you the "experts" are only going to see the problem kids. I doubt Steven Spielberg or Bill Gates was hauled to an "expert".

If my daughter has to read something challenging like Arthur Miller's play The Crucible I HAVE to show her a picture of, say, 17th century people, or photographs of Salem, MA to get her attention, to get her to read it in the first place.

If I were to ban the computer she would simply sleep more. At least she does go out once a day and sorts of wanders around. I know one Aspie boy who seldom leaves his house!  She also camps 1-2 weeks a year with other Aspies or NT kids. She goes to camp Tuesday actually with regular kids at a spiritual retreat which is NOT your standard summer camp. She has been to this retreat before and it is very calming in that no tv, radios, or cell phones are allowed.

She will get some study skills help (4-5 lessons) at the end of the summer where she will be taught how to read and review, how to get at the main idea, how to organize and write a standard report (though I have taught her this already).I am also slowly teaching her how to write. The schools should teach the above but don't, don't ask we why, it seems so basic!

The best idea we've had so far is to reduce her academic load by one major course/quarter which we will implement next fall. Takes the pressure off everyone.

Post your list of famous Aspies again.

http://www.psychcentral.com USED to post a list of famous HFA/AS people, which before it was yanked included musicians Courtney Love and Neil Young.

Also on the list:  Dan Ackroyd (he said so himself in an NPR interview last year) and Keith Olbermann of MSNBC. It sense it was the latter who forced this website to yank the list, but I could be wrong. Keith is definitely an Aspie, into baseball and has an on-going vendetta with Bill O'Reilly who is a pompous ***.

Finally, someone here posted that they thought Woody Allen was an Aspie I think.   I don't see that myself, but, face it, many AS traits in that generation may have been beaten out of kids by their parents.