Aspies For Freedom

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Hi, I'm new here, so I'll try not to piss anyone off. No promises, though.

I only recently discovered Gilmartin's book. I'm real cautious when it comes to labels, because they tend to become prescriptive as well as descriptive; so I'm still reflecting on the "male lesbian" concept as it applies to me. Technically, it doesn't anymore, because I'm married now; but when I was still a single male, it fit me like a glove. And my personality hasn't changed all that much since then.

In addition to the many traits listed by Gilmartin, I have a few others. My wife has a gay friend who describes me as the "gayest straight man" he knows, and has told her privately that he can't figure me out. Personally, I think this ties in with another comment made by others, that I am extremely close to my "feminine side." My suspicion is that what he's seeing is my inner female, juxtaposed with my outer male, and can't understand why I'm not gay.

I've been collecting lesbian cinema for several years -- the genuine article, not the crap made for straight men -- and am now branching out into the literature. (I *loved* Patience & Sarah!) I've never understood the attraction; I assumed that I identified with it in some way, but never put it together with the wish I'd been born female.

I definitely do not expect acceptance as any sort of lesbian by the female lesbian community. It's not that I feel I don't deserve to be recognized as such -- assuming the label does apply to me -- but I recognize how hard many lesbians have had to struggle to be where they are today, how much of a threat straight men are, and how difficult it has been for them to claim and own the word with pride. I really don't feel the need for that sort of acceptance, anyway; but I do want to understand myself, and Gilmartin's book, and the label, help me to do that.

So, while I don't plan to advertise myself as a secret sister Smile I will think of myself that way, from time to time, if only to clear my head. Oh, and if I'm lucky, in my next incarnation, that lipstick lesbian you see giving you the once-over as you pass her in the street just might be me.

Mike Frazier Wrote:
Hi, I'm new here, so I'll try not to piss anyone off. No promises, though.

I only recently discovered Gilmartin's book. I'm real cautious when it comes to labels, because they tend to become prescriptive as well as descriptive; so I'm still reflecting on the "male lesbian" concept as it applies to me. Technically, it doesn't anymore, because I'm married now; but when I was still a single male, it fit me like a glove. And my personality hasn't changed all that much since then.

In addition to the many traits listed by Gilmartin, I have a few others. My wife has a gay friend who describes me as the "gayest straight man" he knows, and has told her privately that he can't figure me out. Personally, I think this ties in with another comment made by others, that I am extremely close to my "feminine side." My suspicion is that what he's seeing is my inner female, juxtaposed with my outer male, and can't understand why I'm not gay.

I've been collecting lesbian cinema for several years -- the genuine article, not the crap made for straight men -- and am now branching out into the literature. (I *loved* Patience & Sarah!) I've never understood the attraction; I assumed that I identified with it in some way, but never put it together with the wish I'd been born female.

I definitely do not expect acceptance as any sort of lesbian by the female lesbian community. It's not that I feel I don't deserve to be recognized as such -- assuming the label does apply to me -- but I recognize how hard many lesbians have had to struggle to be where they are today, how much of a threat straight men are, and how difficult it has been for them to claim and own the word with pride. I really don't feel the need for that sort of acceptance, anyway; but I do want to understand myself, and Gilmartin's book, and the label, help me to do that.

So, while I don't plan to advertise myself as a secret sister Smile I will think of myself that way, from time to time, if only to clear my head. Oh, and if I'm lucky, in my next incarnation, that lipstick lesbian you see giving you the once-over as you pass her in the street just might be me.


Hi Mike - glad you've been enjoying some of our discussions Tongue

WELCOME!!!

Chimera Wrote:
[quote=Mike Frazier]
Hi, I'm new here, so I'll try not to piss anyone off. No promises, though.


You probably will - sigh.

Are you a tourist or do you have aspie connections?

Chimera Wrote:

Mike Frazier Wrote:
Hi, I'm new here, so I'll try not to piss anyone off. No promises, though.


You probably will - sigh.

Are you a tourist or do you have aspie connections?


My niece. However, the discussion did not deal with Asperger's, but with male lesbianism.

EvilZakkie Wrote:
Don't worry too much about the aspie connections thing - we have quite a few NT's on the site. I think Janet was just asking for curiosities sake...


Oh gosh, yes!  

So much so that I didn't even consider that it would be taken otherwise - Thanks for clarifying, Zakkie!!

tenaciouscj Wrote:
Males can't be lesbians - only females!


The name is unfortunate, and I think it is no longer in use, but I assume that the thought behind it is:

Men who act like
women

and who like women      

must have made the authors of the study think about libianism

Straight men who are very "gay" are called metrosexuals.  Maybe that is the sorta guy they are thinking of??

drmjr Wrote:

EvilZakkie Wrote:

drmjr Wrote:
I have read an article about love-shyness before and my understanding of the "male lesbian" is this - if the guy were a woman, he would be a lesbian, because he would still prefer women over men.  As a guy, he doesn't like other guys, but prefers the company of women.  He doesn't care about sports or anything aggressive or threatening.  Basically, he doesn't like other men and if he were a woman, he still wouldn't like men.  I hope this makes sense.


True, but if any straight man became a women, yet retained their original personality and desires, they'd be a lesbian.

There's lots of men that don't like sports, and plenty of women that do.


I didn't mention this earlier, but as often as not-so-sports minded guys are put down as gay is a gross injustice.  Actually, the article I had read shows such a guy as super-straight.  Following are 2 links to the original article I have read, if you're interested:
http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/polepino/Ch...sbian.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/polepino/Ch...state.html


To use the word "gay" as an insult at all is a gross injustice. Being gay is not something bad.

Arctoris Wrote:
To use the word "gay" as an insult at all is a gross injustice. Being gay is not something bad.


you are 110% correct, but for the newest gen of young adults it applies to anything that is bad

and has little to do with homosexuality

drmjr Wrote:
 Before the term gay was used to mean homosexual instead of happy, it was a common thing to call an uncoordinated person a sissy, but it's not fair to make fun of an uncoordinated person anymore than it is fair to make fun of a blind or deaf person.



I have two 14 year olds, a boy and a girl.  The guys seem to enjoy picking on each other, saying insulting things and just laughing it off.

However, its NEVER okay to say things that are hurtful to the person being targeted.  They are also pretty careful about that.

The girls, on the other hand, know how to stick the knife in someones back while smiling politely the while.  B.E.W.A.R.E.

Chimera Wrote:

Arctoris Wrote:
To use the word "gay" as an insult at all is a gross injustice. Being gay is not something bad.


you are 110% correct, but for the newest gen of young adults it applies to anything that is bad

and has little to do with homosexuality


That makes it no more acceptable and it is still incredibly insulting to gay people. Just as the word "***" offends a great many people when used incorrectly.

Arctoris Wrote:
Just as the word "***" offends a great many people when used incorrectly.


The other fav word of this new generation.

"narley" was so innocent in comparisen

Chimera Wrote:

Arctoris Wrote:
Just as the word "***" offends a great many people when used incorrectly.


The other fav word of this new generation.

"narley" was so innocent in comparisen


Every time I hear any of those words uttered, I stop the person and explain to them why they should not use it. It's worked fairly well and I managed to get my friends to stop using "gay" or "***."

Arctoris Wrote:
Every time I hear any of those words uttered, I stop the person and explain to them why they should not use it. It's worked fairly well and I managed to get my friends to stop using "gay" or "***."



Please don't think I am not doing that with my kids and their friends.

Maybe its b/c  I am a mom, and so by default am totally clueless, that I can't say I've been as successful as you have been.

Chimera Wrote:

Arctoris Wrote:
Every time I hear any of those words uttered, I stop the person and explain to them why they should not use it. It's worked fairly well and I managed to get my friends to stop using "gay" or "***."



Please don't think I am not doing that with my kids and their friends.

Maybe its b/c  I am a mom, and so by default am totally clueless, that I can't say I've been as successful as you have been.


I didn't mean to imply anything. It definitely is difficult to change minds, especially rebellious young ones. I have no experience with being a parent, and never will, so I have no idea how I'd handle my own children.

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:
I am wondering, as others have, whether the whole 'male lesbian' thing is due to the unfairly narrow gender roles that society assigns to people. By the criteria, I would qualify as 'female, with gay-male brain'!


I think you're right

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:
And I have a rotten time of it persuading my fifteen year old twins not to use 'gay' or '***' as general purpose insults when 'all their friends' are using those words. Sad I suppose it is just like it was when we were young, and people used 'queer' and 'cretin' as insults. As a child I had no idea that those words had other meanings - they were just noises, like 'flip' or 'heck'!


I feel less alone in this now

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