Aspies For Freedom

I feel like a monster sometimes, uncomfortable with my own thoughts and all.

i feel somewhat better than humans...with all their dirty emotions and such...yeah, my egotism kind of balances out the crippling rejection i faced in earlier life due to my AS.x

Wow! What a great point. I've often wondered about this... sometimes I find myself a little jealous of the NT ability to just spontaneously express and share things with those around them. When I try to do it, it is very conscious and forced, and I don't feel good about it. I wonder, why is it so simple for others to just say what they are thinking and feeling? I really wish I could "connect" to others that way and get on the same vibe.

All my most intense experiences have been alone.

As a child, I used to play by myself for hours and hours and hours in the sand. Growing up, my "emotional life" was played out sitting on a computer. If I played with friends at all, it was nearly always one on one, and usually in a highly focused activity or complex fantasy game (role playing, making animated claymation movies, video games, etc.) - there had to be some kind of "hook" to keep us locked into the same reality. Otherwise, I couldn't seem to just enjoy the simple company of others well. Even though I enjoy the exercise somewhat, sports have always held very little interest for me - I wonder if it's because I don't really appreciate or "get" the "team" aspects of working together, bonding, sharing, or connecting... I'm usually too acutely aware of my body aching, feeling sweaty, breathing hard, etc.

As I've gotten older, it's been more of the same "experiencing life as a lone wolf" - I traveled for a year on my own and didn't really miss my friends or family. I met lots of people while away, but once we parted, they left my life - "out of sight, out of mind". Abstractly, I worry I should miss them more.

Normally my "independent nature" doesn't bother me, but at 25 and done school (an intense source of focus for most of my life), I now feel very lonely about life. It's finally occurred to me how "stuck in my head" I am, and how much of life I have lived on my own. If I map out my "social network" in my head, I see how few people there are in it. I feel like a stranger to even my own family...

It's a big worry. Sometimes, I feel trapped that I will never actually be a part of anyone else's life again, or they mine. As time's gone on, the isolation has become more pronounced. While my peers become more socially advanced, I seem to be regressing as I am able to relate less and less. Sometimes I don't leave the house for days, and in social gatherings, I tend to sit mum and motionless. More and more, I feel like I've "forgotten" how to be a human being. I feel more kinship toward cats and other non-verbal creatures... Sometimes I wish I could stick a sign on myself that would read, "Caution: Aspie. Approach with caution. Do not feed or make direct eye contact."

As you get older, life is much less about "what you know" and much more about "who you know" - not just in terms of career connections, but just quality and breadth of experience. I account a lot of my current existential poverty to poor social connections. I'm sure this is something many Aspies struggle with.

One solution seems to be to consciously seek and establish community and participation - to enroll one's self in the "school of sociability" so to speak, so that regular social contact is unavoidable, even though it might not always be actively sought or appreciated at the time. I fear doing this because I know I can get pretty drained in social settings, but I see now that the alternative of complete isolation is not pleasant either.

Every thing a person do is some how motivated by selfishness. An NT is shallow to me, because they are usually very interested in other peoples attention for things like, haircut, new car silicon implants...They have more "vanity issues", and unfortunately this influence everyday decisions. Also most NT's do many things, because "everybody else does", How shallow isn't that?!
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Shallow/selfish!

I just had a big falling out with an NT friend about this very issue! She accused me of "over complicating" and making everything "too deep", I called her on being "superficial". She said I have "no fashion sense", I expressed frustration that it's all she thinks about.

Who is right?

The tension really bothers me. I want to like other people, but I have nothing to add when someone talks about their hair for 20 minutes... I spend my time reading Wikipedia, not celebrity tabloids. I relate emotionally over ideas or factual concepts the same way she gets excited about carpet shopping. It's extremely frustrating to feel like we do possess the same emotions, but triggered in a completely different way. Since the world is on the NT side (marketing, advertising, etc..), I always feel like the inferior one... Arrrrgh!

True, but this can be very isolating when you feel like no one else shares your interests. Sometimes I am quite jealous at the way that NTs are able to gush, laugh, joke, and bond over the most mundane and base topics - mostly about the dynamics of other people.

I find I can't participate in that because I'm all too aware that anything I say can logically be applied to me as well, since I'm human too. Some people would say I "think about it too much". But to me, it's not over-thinking, it's just obvious: I can't express "what a *** so and so is..." because if she's capable of it, so am I, and I don't take pleasure in emphatically expressing how wretched a human being I am. Where's the pleasure in that?

I get the impression that NTs just don't take it that far... When they feel something - e.g. "frustration" - they immediately emote it by projecting it on a ready or favourite target - e.g. "My boss is an ****!!!" - to which other NTs, innately seeking to be liked and part of the group, nod and offer sympathetic statements - e.g. "Yeah, what a jerk!" - to which the first NT is soothed by and feels closer to his "allies". I can clearly OBSERVE this process happening, but like Data from Star Trek, I feel unable to genuinely feel anything of it myself.

When I DO *** (and who doesn't?), I usually have a damn good logical reason. Since logic already justifies my reaction, I don't need other people to vindicate my anger. Even when they attempt to sympathize in the NT way, I don't feel any particular emotional soothing or "kick" from their support. Abstractly, it's nice to have, I guess, but I know it's superficial and doesn't really solve anything. An issue is an issue, whether anyone else agrees or not.

The sole exception to this rather neat and tidy reality is interpersonal issues. Here, in the muddy waters of NT land, I am lost and blind. People get upset with me, and I have no idea why. People expect me to do certain things, or behave a certain way, and I don't. People will do something which I don't fully understand, or I feel is "wrong" or "hurtful", and they will have no idea why I'm so upset. It causes trouble. It causes awkwardness. It causes tension, strife, embarrassment, misunderstanding, anger, resentment, hostility, anxiety, and STREEEESSS.  

In times like this, I get why NTs just try to "go with the flow" and minimize all conflict. But it's still not something I can do.

In my completely unscientific opinion, I believe NTs and ASers have different primary drives.

I believe the primary NT drive is EGO - that is, to save face, appear as #1, to be well liked, minimize conflict, and above all, serve the PERSONAL NEEDS of their self. They will unconsciously do what it takes to maintain and increase their social status, even if it means logically being irrational or directly contradicting one's self. Being emotionally inconsistent does not bother an NT, because their reaction always feels congruent to their EGO SELF.

ASers, on the other hand, have a strong drive toward LOGIC - they want things to make sense, be clear, and above all, be consistent with the HIGHER TRUTH of universal logic.  It makes them very "honest" in a way that makes them reaction to NT ego games as "manipulative", "dishonest", and "senseless". They will unconsciously do what it takes to maintain logical TRUTH, even if it means violating certain "social faux pas" like correcting others, being blunt, or expression one's true opinion. Being logically inconsistent bothers an ASer, because - as human beings - their emotions do not always rigidly follow congruently with UNIVERSAL TRUTH.

ASers think like robots, and feel like humans. NTs are human, through and through. No wonder there is conflict!

Personally, I "get" why they like it. It's just not something that "does it" for me. I'll go, I'll dance, I can go through the motions, but it's like a gay man having sex with a woman. Something just feels... off.

My estimation is that ASers do not react strongly to EGO appeals - e.g. all things and activities related to vanity, "personality", "me and other people". I would guess this is because ASers inherently have less of an established sense of individual "self" to feed - e.g. the whole "theory of mind" bit. They are still child-like in their concept of self, and thus largely unaware (and therefore unconcerned with) the world's "toys" for ego (e.g. fancy shoes, makeup, sexy clothes, funky hairstyles, accessories, hot clubs, "who's who" lists, etc).

Naturally, you won't care about your identity until you actually become aware that you have one in relation to other people!

I think ASers can "understand" NTs in the sense of emulation - they will never BE NT, but they can develop a pretty full conceptual model of the NT reality. Their quest is like that of Data - to be LIKE human, if not actually human.

I believe this is a key point. For ASers, many emotions feel like a conscious effort, whereas NTs appear to experience happiness, sadness, anger, etc rather spontaneously. I find I sometimes have to give myself "permission" to feel happy or sad or anger about a situation once I have logically processed it. Often, there is an incredible delay on this - days or weeks or sometimes years - which can lead to a lot of pent-up and unexpressed feelings once they are finally triggered. This is bad bad bad... I believe it's a misnomer to for ASers to think they are in "control" of their emotions any more than NTs just because there is a delay. When I get upset, I'm just as irrational (if not more so) than any NT. It's what you'd call a "freak out".

I agree. It's part of the AS charm and curse to be highly observant of all that goes on around you. I've experienced a lot of discomfort at sometimes baring "uncomfortable truths" I've notice about the people or things around me, without them realizing it. Maybe NTs can do this too and are just better at handling it gracefully. For me, it causes discomfort as I become unsure as to whether it is "socially correct" to mention something or not.

Respectful disagreement is appreciated.

I think my terminology might be off. What I mean is that NTs are driven by peer pressure that comes from being very aware of one's self within a group - that is, to look, act, think, speak, and smell a certain way... whereas by definition, those are the spectrum are more in their "own world". Both still have ego needs, but the NT ego needs are more dependent on the concept of 'other people', whereas AS ego needs are more internally focused.

I realize it's not a perfect statement... Pardon my sweeping generalizations I was trying to share some perspective on what might account for the so-called "difference" this thread is discussing. It's not meant to be an airtight statement of absolute truth.

Maybe "avoid conflict" would be a better way of describing what I meant - I was referring to the "social niceties" that NTs use to placate one another.  NTs will laugh at jokes which are not funny, smile at someone they don't like, give compliments which are not genuine, all to avoid "causing waves". Most seem to have a strong need to maintain civility. Most of the time, it works great, allowing many NTs who might not necessarily completely love one another to work and get along... probably an important evolutionary trait for survival in the "pack".

I believe most wars (both personal and national) are caused by either misunderstanding, or as a reaction to aggressive behaviour. While the latter may well be intentional (hostile takeovers, invasions, terrorist acts), the former is almost always unintentional - it's the "he said, she said" stuff. A "war" to me is as much fighting with your GF as it is picking up arms against another country.

ASers are far more likely to simply state something, regardless of whether it violates popular opinion. It might come off as offensive or "insensitive", but the ASer will still say it. NTs, on the other hand, might avoid saying it outloud for the sake of avoiding conflict, only to say it behind someone's back... If the person finds out, that's one good way to start a war!

a) I wouldn't say being a logical person invalidates being a creative one too. If anything, it might make a person more creative by allowing them to "logically" run through extensive permeations of an idea without duplicating thought patterns. Here I meant that ASers seem to have a strong drive towards "truth" (maybe as a way of making sense of a crazy world?), which is naturally by definition a universal concept that logic should theoretically support.

b) Social status is certainly important to ASers - but is it fair to say that most are probably not as concerned with it as NTs? When you live in your own world, you don't really especially need the validation of another one. Nice to have, maybe, but not necessary. Why would you want to be regarded highly by a group you don't especially feel a part of? Other than the logical perks (money, fame, privilege), the sense of "belongingness" would still be missing. I could see an ASer on American Idol for the sake of wanting to win the challenge, but not really for the adulation of the screaming crowd. I'm sure it would please them, but I doubt it would be a primary motivation. Am I wrong about this?

In Amy's "AS Types" video, she mentions there's a "Warhol" type, which craves the center of attention. My response to this would still be that such a type does not feel "belongingness", but rather, experiences a sense of logical validation by being externally recognized as something "special" by an NT mass. There is still a fundamental divide there.

That is certainly the AS way!

Hmm. Sounds like I offended your ego. ?

(That was a joke! Smile!)

By "child-like" ego, I mean that an ASers concept of the world is perhaps more holistic compared to the NTs - they view the world more as an independent floating consciousness, rather than an entity of "one among others" -

May I use an example to explain?

In early development, all children initially view the world and their selves as one. For instance, young babies do not understand that their thumb is "theirs". They will stare at it like it is a foreign object. Only once they "discover" that their thumb is "theirs" do they begin to develop a concept of self in relation to the rest of the world. They then go through a period of "testing" the world, to see what is "theirs" and what is not. Usually, this happens at around age 2, which is why parents refer to it as the "terrible twos".... the child is constantly testing boundaries, usually by being a real nuisance!

Since autism is considered a developmental disorder, it makes sense to me that something in this period might get delayed or modified compared to NT development. Perhaps ASers discover "less" in this period about the boundaries of the world between "me" and "them", and grow up with a concept that is still integrated like the infant's world - hence my comment, "child-like".

To others (especially in early childhood), an ASer might appear more self-absorbed, but it is actually because to the AS perspective, there is less distinction between "me" and "everything else".

I recently spent several years getting into Eastern philosophy, studying meditation in India. I was amazed at the similarities in the notion of "All is One", and the AS worldview (as I understand it). Much of Eastern religion focuses on the concept of "Ego" - specifically, how to "transcend" one's ego to obtain higher realization.

Ken Wilber developed a philosophical concept known as the Pre/Trans fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre/trans_fallacy) - My argument above is essentially that AS, in many ways, is like the "Pre" state of Enlightenment. The fallacy would be thinking that just because ASers may have less "ego baggage" than NTs, they are somehow "better" for it. This is likely not true, even though a so-called "enlightened" being would probably appear more AS-like than NT.

There's a well known website you've no doubt seen that describes what it calls the "origins of autism": http://causeofautism.com/ - It's a very thorough investigation of a possible link between autism and evolution. The most interesting point is that the needs of evolution itself might actually contribute to increasing rates of autism - i.e. the implication is that ASers are actually "good" for humanity at certain points in its history. Could the "Geek Syndrome" really be part of Nature's grand design? Interesting thought...

So bottom-line: I didn't mean "child-like" as an insult... in many ways, it can actually be a very good, exceptional thing.

I feel more human as one with AS.

I know exactly what you mean - When I was younger, I used to obsessively read fantasy novels, and I especially loved the ones where the protagonist turned out to be from a long forgotten race, with hidden abilities...

*grins* I guess I had an inkling even back then.

I don't believe in more human or less human ideology. I believe in diversity and celebrating differences. I am different and sometimes I do feel ostracized but I wouldn't trade being different. As a writer, every perspective is important and I believe every soul is valuable. I do not like NT vs. Aspie I believe in people first AS/NT are secondary- they don't define who you are. I wish these prejudicial and bigot mindedness would be abolished forever. If we learn to celebrate differences there would be no fear.