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have you read this discussion/presentation?  I found it interesting and along the lines of your original post.

http://web.archive.org/web/2005020908414...0-ToM.html

I tend to agree with the final conclusion that TOM works between ACs and between NTs but not between ACs & NTs.

I have always been aware that I really have no idea what other people might say or do or think.  As I have gotten older, my probability drive can compute likely reactions (NTs are really very predictable once you get the subsets down).  But there is no "knowing"; it's all manual.

Besides, "just knowing" how everyone thinks and acts is fine...if you WANT to be like everyone else.  I'd rather be different, thanks.  There's enough of "everyone else" running around as it is.

Neither of us is "wrong" or "broken" just two different types of humans.  Of course, try to get anyone else to think that!
Thank you, folks!  I'm understood and others have experienced and can verbalize all the same things I'm attempting to here!  Phew!  All I can say is "yes, yes, yes, and yes."  

Just LOOK, though, at our descriptions of what we go through each and every day during interaction with most others, ya know?  No WONDER I (and may I respectfully assume "we"?) get confused and exhausted by it!  Big Grin

And then after all that, we're taught the "social grace" (?) of "don't assume anything, it makes an *** out of you and me." (Pardon my language......)  About that time, all I can say is "huh?"

The reasons behind "not interested in having friends" ASD criteria is becoming more and more evident (to me anyway.)  I figured there was a "reason" behind an ASD's preference for that.  Maybe they should clarify that one and not make it such a generalization.   Wink
Oops, I'm was remiss.  Thank you, folks, for participating in this discussion!!  I can't tell you how helpful this was for me.
Oops, again.  (Now I'm laughing.)  I meant to say one of two things "I'm being remiss" or "I was remiss".  Looks like I hadn't decided which of the two I was going to say before my fingers took over typing.
LOL.............yeah...........so which of us are the true "aberrations" of evolution.  Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think it's "us"!
And is it any wonder why we prefer animals?  (I have eight.)  Big Grin  (Sorry, I promise I won't go any farther off topic.)

couldbecousin Wrote:
For what it's worth, NTs are often quite wrong in their assumptions about how other people think and operate.  In my 41 years I have many times had my motives and feelings "explained" to me by clueless people who were merely projecting their own issues onto me.  The most NT person I have ever met will call me at home, then hang up after several rings, usually just before I can get to the phone.  I then immediately call her back, whereupon she accuses me of screening my calls with my caller ID box and deliberately dodging her.  She will not be swayed from this delusion no matter what I say, which means she believes I am not only inconsiderate but also a liar.  A former therapist of mine (probably NT) actually corrected me in session when I said this or that didn't bother me.  Yes, he actually told me, "And it does hurt you when such-and-such happens!"  He also made assumptions about my past based on the way I sat on the couch.  Yes, apparently this genius, this shaman, can figure out everything he needs to know about clients from their posture.  *sarcastic*  Rolleyes


Physical/psychological connection has been a long time hobby of mine (hence the elaborate "people" programs).  It is a private amusement of mine, on occasion, to call one of these shaman sorts on their own total lack of awareness.  And can usually quote various sources they cannot dispute as back up.  

So my answer to M. Therapist's "but it does blah blah" I'll counter with but see, your judgment may be inpaired because you are feeling defensive.  No?  then why have you crossed your arms over your chest  and are leaning away?...et al.  

(~rolling laughing~ try ending a session by pleasantly congratulating them for only looking at the clock 9 times this visit instead of 15!)

NT's think they act how they think (and they wonder why we are confused?) but...hey, they came up with "do as I say, not as I do" Tongue

couldbecousin Wrote:
Anyway, the celebrated NT superiority at mind-reading seems to have been overrated just a wee bit in my opinion.  One autistic person's comeback to "Autistics lack theory of mind" is that "NTs lack theory of other minds."  ....


~laughing~ I'll take that!  Maybe we just don't know about the secret pledge to ignore how it all doesn't match up.

Ok............here is how my mind works:

First, I had to read that story three times to "get it".  And thank goodness it was in "writing" and not verbal, or I probably would never have gotten all of the individual characters straight in my mind and what each was doing (I would have to be writing it all down as you talk, just like I do at work.)  And even while writing this explanation of mine, I had to refer back to the story several times. (My boss often has to present a question/theory to me several different ways, so I can "get it".

My second immediate thought is why is the question "where does Betty go to get it", when to me, it should be "Should Johnny go find Betty and tell her?"  (Yes, he should.)  Because otherwise, how would Betty know where to go at all?

According to and based on the alleged "correct" answer, I apparently focus on a whole different avenue of thought than the story is supposed to be presenting to me (which my boss has complained about before... Big Grin ).  Even when I KNOW and understand that the question is "Where does she go to get it?"  My impression and urge is to say "How would I know?"  Maybe she runs into someone else who is going to the same "gathering" and finds out where Clark will be and goes there.  Maybe somebody called Betty before she left and told her.  Johnny didn't even ask her mother where Betty was going, so how could he assume anything?  Maybe Betty runs into Clark on the way?  How long ago did she leave?  Will or do Betty's and Clark's paths meet on the way?  Is Betty walking or riding something, (i.e. a bike?)  How do we know anything?

(Yes, I've always been accused of purposely being "difficult" in conversations, but I'm truly not trying to be.  I just think differently.)  At work, I also have to know first "why" the "question" being asked IS the question that it is, because it never appears to "relate" to the "story" or hypothesis or problem, etc. like it should.  (Am I explaining myself ok?)

So, bottom line in a story like that, my serious answer would be "How should I know?"  And with an NT, I'm then accused of just being a smart-***.  (Please excuse the language.)

So, being the legal researcher that I am (in my job), I'm terrific!!!  Present me with a question, and I'll tear it apart immediately and research it backwards and forwards and when you get an answer, by golly, it will be quite difficult for the other side (in a legal dispute) to defend themselves against it.  Tongue

In general communication, though, thinking like this sucks.............but then again, who coined the phrase that I was required to learn, which was "don't assume anything"?  

Oh...and ok, let's say someone says to me "pretend you ARE Betty place, instead of remaining in an objective position, and let's say Betty knows none of the above, doesn't meet up with Clark, Mom doesn't tell her anything, blah blah"; if I were Betty, before leaving, I'd think.........hmmmmmmm.......I wonder if Clark's plans have changed any, and probably would have to consider the "odds" of where to go first, not just assume where to go.  And I'd make sure that in case Clark is NOT there, that I have another reason to go where ever it is I eventually decide to go, so I won't be disappointed if Clark isn't there; and/or also decide where ELSE I could get my ice cream, if Clark isn't there.  So, again, if I were Betty, I wouldn't know where to go (for certain.)  Maybe I'd try to contact Johnny again and get his advice, too.

I can't stand so much unpredictability, which to me, is what the world is and what I've experienced my whole life.  Rolleyes  
Let's see, so the conclusion to make is that "normal" people are extremely evil beings, dishonest, monstrous, suspicious, and otherwise not suitable to be let out on their own devices.
I hadn't thought about my run-in with Sally and Ann for eons, until I found this place.  

I wouldn't take those tests as a child (first refusal: public kindergarten). I told them they were full of trick questions and until they explained to me what they were testing for, I wasn't playing.

I never picked apart the questions.  If I didn't know immediately from the questions, what the test was for, I refused to participate until I got an explanation.  I don't think I need to point out how well test administrators like explaining...kinda ruins whatever control group they've got going.

They gave up around middle-school when I started countering with well supported arguments as to how, no, they actually could not make me.  Guess it blew any deficiencies they were testing.

So I am a willful underachiever by default Tongue
Ok, well then, I guess my original confusion about it was valid, at least.  Big Grin  

  

knoxboxlox Wrote:

This has to do with a more general aspect of Aspie/Autistic wiring (which underdeveloped ToM is also an effect of which): Lack of symbolic perception.  I'm not saying that autistics can't understand symbols, but they don't automatically perceive the world in symbols like NTs do -- they see the details of something, the actual something, instead of an abstractified concept, generalization, the "idea of something," etc.  Aspies are less apt for conceptualization/generalization/abstractification.  Symbols -- which require universals -- make sense through these operations.  

I, a NT, live in a world of concepts.  Aspies see the world for what it actually is.  I see it in through concepts, abstractifications and generalizations.  As Grandin and others often point out, when NTs say that it is as if Aspies are in their own little worlds, they couldn't be more wrong -- aspies are in the actual world and it is NTs who are in a world they created for themselves!  Since NTs create that world through collective consciousness, it is a world they all share -- we invent, modify, and teach those concepts, generalizations, abstractifications, etc. collectively.  That world is common among us (NTs).

How do you account for the fact that many aspies have great success in highly abstract thinking, such as computing and math? Even the concept of a number is abstract - there's no such object as a number in the world - and mathematics and computer science/programming pile abstraction upon abstraction.

Quote:
As many on this forum believe and/or often preach, both NTs and Aspies are wired in such a way that there are advantages and disadvantages.  While NTs each have their own viewpoint and their own life, much of life, especially public life, is understood in a universal way.  This facilitates interaction because it allows for communication without being plagued with major misunderstandings.  On the flip side, NTs may overlook things -- by understanding the world in an abstractified way (i.e., the "big picture"), we miss the details.  Also collective consciousness can become detatched from the reality when we abstractify too much (in other words, widespread alienation (in the Marxist sense) is possible).  For autistics, it's the opposite:  The major benefit of their wiring is that they see the world for what it is -- they are less likely to be alienated from the truth and would not commonly miss the details.  The major disadvantage is that communication can be difficult because (a) autistics don't automatically see the world in terms of universals, like NTs do, and although they can translate, it takes more effort and can lead to mind exhaustion, and (b) without universals/concepts as one's principle way of perceiving the world, there will misunderstandings (nonliteral meanings, etc.) with language.  

ToM requires abstractification, conceptualization, generalization, etc.:  For example, to even understand what the mind is, that's completely conceptual!  The mind isn't something concrete.  Another example: In order to understand what someone is thinking/feeling/imaginging/wanting/etc., it requires the individual to abstractify his or her own thoughts/emotions/imagination/desires/etc, create concepts out of them, and then generalize those concepts so they can be applied to other people.  Many aspies have ToM, but struggle with it.  This is because they are able to abstractify, conceptualize, generalize, etc. -- it just doesn't come as naturally (spontaneously) as it does for NTs.

I think you're wrong on this, or at least you're generalizing about something that only holds for some. I know I generalize and abstractify naturally. There's even a hypothesis (I can't remember where I read about it - I might be able to dig it up) that autistics are hypergeneralizers; they tend to think about the world as a collection of rules acting on a collection of objects. One example from someone in this thread was that anger meant "I've done something wrong". This is an example of a generalization that's wrong - an observation that was perceived as general when in fact it only holds in some instances.

I can see how the world can be perceived as a massive state machine, the mind a gigantic set of tubes that maps inputs of one kind to outputs of another. I know this isn't exactly how it works, but it's a useful metaphor to a certain extent. There's this thing about emotions: it doesn't follow rules. It's unpredictable and irrational, and that makes it hard to deal with if you look at the world as a state machine.

This is how I handle social situations in which I can't rely on instincts (I suspect that these situations occur more often for aspies than NTs with normal social development) - I apply heuristics. This makes social interaction a conscious activity, as opposed to an unconscious one. Instead of speaking and acting naturally, you must think and then act. Should I look you in the eyes, should I speak, should I laugh? These are questions I guess you seldom consider consciously.

I think the computer metaphor works here too. The brain is a massively parallell computer. At any given time, lots of signals are going from lots of synapses to lots of other synapses. The part that takes the most energy is the conscious part. NTs keep a background process for social behavior. It's always in the semi-conscious area of the brain, and does most of the social processing. This is where the autistic brain diverges: the background process does a lot less, and so the conscious part must do much more. This does give a certain kind of power, in that you get to exercise a lot more control over your social actions, because you do them consciously. That's the good news. The bad news is that it's not optional. You have to do it consciously, because if you don't, you won't function at all.

Anyway, that's how I work. I love concepts and abstractions, metaphors and analogies. I see them everywhere. I realize this isn't what it's like for everyone. I can only speak for my own experience. No matter how good you are at reading other people's minds through their behavior, it's impossible for us to actually experience the world through someone else's eyes. Just thought I'd point out the idea that abstract thinking is a second-class concept for aspies is not an accurate generalization.

By the way, here's a link that, if I remember correctly, argues that savant abilities arise from a failure to integrate details into a coherent whole. By perceiving the details, savant brains can exploit the diversity in their brains and do remarkable stuff that normal people can never do even when they practice for years.

Quote:
Getting back to Shnoing's concepts:

The first one (about foreign language) -- that's pretty analagous to ToM:  Concepts/Abstract Ideas/Generalizations are exactly like a foreign language!  When I (a NT) speak (or write), I am using symbolic language -- it refers to universals.  When aspies communicate, language is literal.  Literal language is aspies' "native language."  Symoblic language is NTs' "native langauge."  When we communicate together, we need to translate what the other is saying, just like students taking a foreign language must constantly do.


I'm as good as anyone to understand symbolic meanings. Does that mean I'm not aspie enough? I do however have a gift for turning literal meanings into humor, if I do say so myself, but in this case it's entirely optional.

Quote:
Shnoing's second comment is related to conceptualization, in my opinion.  Since autistics live in the [/i]actual world, hypothetical situations, which require conceptualization and generalization (in order to, in Shnoing's words, "place [one]self [in thought] into both situations in order to decide under which circumstances [one] would feel better").  That's why those sorts of decisions and other hypothetical ones (even like answering "what would you like for dinner?" when you're not even hungry yet) can be difficult.


I'm not so sure. Perhaps there are different types of aspies. Hypotethicals, on the hypergeneralizing view, should be easy. I don't have any trouble imagining myself in hypotethical situations, at least, but I don't know about others.

That said, your particular example is actually nuanced, but the nuance usually slips below the radar. If someone asks me what I'd like for dinner, there are many things to take into consideration: for instance, I like junk food, but junk food is more expensive than making something out of what you've already got, and it's not healthy to eat often. I might like food X, but it takes a long time to make, and today is a weekday, so perhaps that can wait. On the other hand, there's Y, but then Z won't be happy. Perhaps with an impaired social intuition (I like the term intuition, as it suggests that you might have social skills that are learned but not intuitive, like math for most people is learned but not intuitive, because some (many?) aspies do [i]learn
social skills) you won't be able to intuitively find out when and what is appropriate to say, and so you go down all possible roads, and that is energy and time consuming no matter how good you are at conceptualization and abstractification and placing oneself in hypotethical situations. Alas, I am no quantum computer, I can't hold all possible superpositions in my mind and quickly collapse into the right one. No, my mind is a regular, semi-deterministic computer, but it certainly can generalize, abstractify and conceptualize.

knoxboxlox Wrote:
I've never read the hypergeneralization thing anywhere and I've read most major works on autism.  Maybe we're using the term "generalization" differently...but are you self diagnosed?  


No, I've got an official diagnosis, and I've questioned it many times, but all the people who are supposed to know what they're doing have stuck with the diagnosis.

Quote:
Grandin writes in Animals in Translation:

"That's the big difference between animals and people, and also between autistic people and nonautistic people.  ANimals and autistic people don't see their ideas of things; they see the actual things themselves.  We see the details that maake up the world, while normal people blur all those details together in their general concept of the world."


(page 30)

On the next page, she continues:
"When an animal or an autistic person is seeing the real world instead of his ideas of the world that means he's seeing detail.  THis is the single most important thing to know about the way animals perceive the world: animals see details people don't see.  They are totally detail-oriented.  That's the key."

In that book Grandin does seem to make some false assumptions based on her own experiences, but in this case, all the research backs it up.

Autistic communication does not use symbolic language.  Integrating symbols into one's principal communication system requires symbolic play (sometimes called "imaginative play").  Absence of meaningful symbolic/imaginative play is a feature on every major diagnostic tool.  

Not using symbolic language or perceiving the world conceptually does not  mean autistics are not creative -- I think (or at least hope) everyone here knows that's ANYTHING but the case.


I didn't mean to imply that you had said autistics aren't creative. I misremembered a bit: it wasn't hyper-generalization, it was hyper-systematizing. Here's a link. The abstract reads:

Quote:
   The hyper-systemizing theory of autism proposes that the systemizing mechanism is set too high in people with autism. As a result, they can
only cope with highly lawful systems, and cannot cope with systems of high variance or change (such as the social world of other minds). They
appear ‘change-resistant’. This proposal extends the extreme male brain theory of autism. Finally, evidence is reviewed for autism being the
genetic result of assortative mating of two high systemizers.

Although most of this discussion isn't/doesn't "click" for me......too many "vague" subjects, i.e. not "concrete" or factual (?) enough for me, and would probably end up resulting in me analyzing this discussion for many moons.........it does prompt me to comment on a few things:

Quote:
This makes social interaction a conscious activity, as opposed to an unconscious one. Instead of speaking and acting naturally, you must think and then act. Should I look you in the eyes, should I speak, should I laugh? These are questions I guess you seldom consider consciously.

  Yep........this is EXACTLY my experience.....always.

Quote:
I think the computer metaphor works here too. The brain is a massively parallell computer. At any given time, lots of signals are going from lots of synapses to lots of other synapses. The part that takes the most energy is the conscious part. NTs keep a background process for social behavior. It's always in the semi-conscious area of the brain, and does most of the social processing. This is where the autistic brain diverges: the background process does a lot less, and so the conscious part must do much more. This does give a certain kind of power, in that you get to exercise a lot more control over your social actions, because you do them consciously. That's the good news. The bad news is that it's not optional. You have to do it consciously, because if you don't, you won't function at all.

  Yep......I use the computer "analogy" when describing my brain/mind often.  I like and use analogies often; although, I don't get metaphors most of the time (even my 17 year old son has commented to me because I obviously didn't "get it" somehow or it didn't compute in my mind, "Mom, that's a metaphor.  Don't you know what a metaphor is?"  Well, I had to say "I guess not!")  I can sort of understand intellectually what it is and means, and MIGHT recognize one once in a while, strictly because I keep looking up the meaning of the word "metaphor" in the dictionary; but as a rule, metaphors escape me unless I stop to extremely analyze what someone is saying to me, and oftentimes in social interactions, I don't have that kind of time to do that.  Over the years, I have strictly "memorized" specific often-used metaphors, though, so I can recognize some during social interactions with NTs. 

Quote:
 I do however have a gift for turning literal meanings into humor, if I do say so myself, but in this case it's entirely optional.

  Ok, I learned to do that, too.  Mainly to "cover" for my social, language and communication inadequacies.  If I don't understand something, usually as a result of my extreme literal interpretations (which I found out about after many years of being told I do that), I find a way to look at the communication I am in the middle of in a humorous manner........I think I do this mainly by picking out "words" within the conversation that I did understand and doing "wordplay", as I call it, with those words.  Hard to explain.  And normally, the way in which I do that is to orally mention how/what that word conjures up "visually" in my mind.  NTs seem to think that is hilarious.  Laughter is contagious, as they say.  Even for auties, I believe.

And who was it who mentioned something about all of this being exhausting (can't find it right now).............I do want to mention that I tried (again) to explain that to a couple of my NT acquaintances just this week!  Somehow, I am unable to make myself understood, I guess, about how exhausting it really and truly is!  I watched as an NT acquaintance of mine looked off into the distance (her eyes sort of went upward) when she was attempting to understand, I guess.  She said she just didn't understand that, though.  Why something this "simple" would be so exhausting.  I have explained many times how MUCH of what I say and do (even everyday body movements, etc.) are conscious thoughts, not "automatic".  It took many years of practice and study, too.

Quote:
As a result, they can
only cope with highly lawful systems, and cannot cope with systems of high variance or change (such as the social world of other minds).

  Never a truer statement ever uttered; at least in my HFA experience and life.  In other words, as my NT kids say:  "You got that right!"

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