Aspies For Freedom

I think if I had a kid I'd prefer a child with mental retardation over a hateful, prejudiced child.

Prejudiced people put some people down, and then reject others of us so we can't defeat them soundly in something like, computer programming?

Humans are defined by their degree of consciousness (or insight or creativity). Consciousness is what separates us from the animals. Achievements are less important than the intention (or consciousness) behind the actions. We have to realize there will always be a number of people who don't contribute anything. They still deserve respect for their being.

I think we should respect animals. I also think animals act fully unconscious. In my opinion, any perceived consciousness in animals is our projection onto them. I'm not stating they don't have feelings.

Anbuend, I don't believe the parrot understands what he is saying. We can communicate with animals. Animals are capable of learning. Animals can have feelings.

I think we are both right about animals and consciousness, it depends on the definition. In my definition of consciousness a person is conscious only when fully aware and a master of himself, totally free and responsible for what he does and doesn't do. In this definition, an animal is unconscious. A bird seems to look for a female bird consciously and starts building a nest and collecting material for the nest. It lookes planned and conscious. I think it's our projection. Also, a gorilla doesn't smile friendly at us, that would be our projection. He is showing his teeth to threaten you.

I agree with you we can also define consciousness in such a way that there are different levels, different types of consciousness. In that way I could even defend that a mouse has some form of consciousness. So we are both right.

I see it this way: parrots can show complex behaviour. They can be intelligent. They can learn. Humans can have relationships with parrots.
But I don't think parrots are conscious. When the parrot would hurt a baby, and when considering to punish the parrot for it, the first thing that will come to our mind is that the parrot cannot be held responsible because he did it unconsciously.

I believe human beings can be (fully) conscious. Most people, including me, act not so consciously at least a part of the time. But it is possible to be conscious, we were born with that possibility. Animals don't have that innate possibility. That's the main difference between humans and animals.
Example: when I am rubbing my knee unconsciously, and I become more conscious at that moment, the rubbing will stop. Not because I have controlled the rubbing, but merely because I have become aware (conscious) of it. That's enough to stop it. A parrot can't do that.

Agreed. We make the assumptions by analogy with ourselves. Since a parrot is further away from me than humans, I assume a parrot behaves unconsciously.

Like Nyanchan, I think all beings deserve respect. Independent from their intelligence or strengths. The only thing where my respect might depend on, is the respect of others for me. Respect is a mutual thing.

I had a cat I had to give away in 1999.  The bird called my cat (named Missy, Muffin, and Chop-Chop successively), Psycho Kitty.

My. Gods. Dadga help me D: I just read this topic and I'm stuned. It's not the orginal topic that stunned me it's the fact some one like Louise hasn't been banned yet. What a stupid prick, she thinks she walk into a fourm that is mainly run by human rights activists that support equal rights and equality to cognitivly challenged and she goes on yapping like a *** dog about "Respect only belonging to the those who have high intelligence." Well looks like you fail on that since your dumber Rhesus monkeys in lab. No "intelligent" being would post that arrogant as hell *** in a fourm like this. Thats *** Obviously college students have less people sense than Aspies do. Heck am the one with the diagonosis, your just an uppity little collage snot.

Seriously I hope there is a hell in the form of resident home just for you, where can piss yourself and moan, and your keepers will be in form monkeys diapering your crappy ***.



Enjoy Picknose you have alot in common with a troll.

And your sticking up for her because??

And I'm not saying she's NT thats your assumtion. I'm saying that she's an arrogant college ****. Who's stupid enough to post this kind of pro-eugenics *** on a website that support equal rights for the congentively challenged. I'm mean, I'm the kind of person in her mindset that should be equivocated as a "pet monkey" and here she is asking for a cyber-asswhooping. Seriously, it's uppity little shits like her, thats makes me disklike humaninty with a passion

Yeah. White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are people too, ya know (hehe. Double acronym).

I find your belief : human worth is based on intelligence to be unacceptable, personally.  We don't yet have a good system in place to test intelligence. I believe there is more than one kind of intelligence, anyway, and that merit can't be proven with data..

You have said that some people are better than others-the talented few- and some people are going to be more deserving of respect for their contribution to the world. How can one measure contribution?

My friend would not be considered a member of your elite group. However, she just won a humanitarian award for all her efforts on behalf of "disabled" people  -she was often called "stupid" ( your overused word) even by her mother. Her boyfriend is also labled "developmentally disabled" and climbed a mountain in Africa last year... My friend's brother is a famous scientist and has developed biodegradable plastic. Should I respect him more? Is he more worthy?  Should perseverance be brought into the equation? There are just so many variables to make such an assumption about human worth...

I agree that we are not equal-
      -someone just starved to death while I typed this in my house full of food-
but using intelligence as a criteria for human worth doesn't make sense, to me.

How DID you arrive at your conclusions? I am quite curious. Did someone say to you "With all your brains, potential and opportunity-you had better go forth and make a huge contribution to the world or you will be worth less"?
It may be that age and maturity will not modify your attitude. You do sound rigid in your assumption.
I do know that I do not believe the same things about the world than I did when I was, say, 6 or 18 or 24 or even last month. Experience
has a way of forcing us to challenge our beliefs. However, we can certainly stubbornly hold on to them-even with much evidence to the contrary.

addendum: Hope this makes sense, I just had a drop of 20 IQ points in the last 3 months. Still feeling mostly quite worthy, however. Though haven't made any significant contribution to society at large (yet) - have made a yummy pot of stew for my family for dinner..
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erkolos, I liked your post..

Oh, Louise18.  Human worth is not based on RACE, either.

  standing ovation

"I am 19 and in one of the two best universities in the UK reading for a law degree. There is nothing naive about my views"

Well, you need to read some more, that is clear.
Perhaps Louise, you haven't yet taken the law class on Morality, Justice and Equality, or you missed it, or something...

By your own argument-You would have to have clients who are less intelligent than you because otherwise YOU would be inferior intellectually to them, and therefore less worthy.
How will you know that they are less intelligent than you? Will you make them take an IQ test before you represent them?
How will you be able to judge and make an assessment of your client's intelligence?

WfM

Louise, you have suggested that your views are not naive- however-
-what about the "people who build and run businesses" that you say you have a lot of respect for..whose 'businesses' are built on greed and on the exploitation of others? And whose crimes are NEVER reported in the newspapers..
And you are fooling yourself when you say that:
"criminals usually have no choice who they take as legal representation"
because often they DO have much money, which is then used to buy "the best" legal representation..

Who IS the worst person in the world??  

We could debate "inherent human worth" vs "value to society" and "what is a Person" forever- with lots more disagreement, more subjective opinions, and more destructive comments being said.
So, Is there any value in doing that? No. I think not.
 As I know law school is brutally competitive-I can almost understand your worldview, Louise,  though I don't agree with it at all.
Personally, if I were ill-I wouldn't want the person who comes up with a "groundbreaking scientific theory", for example, with me (as much as I might admire this person)....
I would just want my Mom.