Aspies For Freedom - "Like pet monkeys"

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

Quote:

Then what do you think of the situation where two people have the same opportunity and one makes more of it than the other?

Choice. Free will. Besides, no-one has exactly the same opportunity as another because there are always other factors coming in to play such as personality, health, financial considerations, family commitments - I could make a very long list here but you are clever enough to get the gist.

But just suppose (as happens) many people with as-near-as-dammit identical attributes apply for a position where any could have made a stunning contribution to society - but they are only hiring one. Are the others now worth less than the successful candidate? Even if the winner was chosen by lottery?

Of course not!

But my point is that personality and intelligence are the reasons you judge someone. By opportunity, I mean something that is wholly external. My point is that in the UK most people nowadays get a fair chance to do well in life and to give something back. Alright some people get hit by a car, some people are abused as children etc. But MOST people get a good enough chance to not be a net loss to society. Why shouldn't they be judged if they fail to?

Life is not a lottery. It is what you make of what you have been given. And some people make bugger all out of it.

People are able to modify their judgements. If that was their first impression they had every right to make it heard. I disagree Tigger. I think all of us has every right to judge our peers, and I don't see why not. It is perfectly possible for me to find out enough information about someone to decide whether they are a net gain or a net loss to society and i do not see why it would be wrong to do so.

Your comment about 'stage in my life' is inappropriate. You know nothing about the stage of my life. Judge me as you will but do not make predictions. You would say the same thing if I was 30 or 90.

Congratulations on nurturing potential. But a life that achieves nothing worthwhile can be nothing other than wasteful.

I do not believe in supporting individuals who are a net loss to society and hav eno potential to ever be a net gain. No I do not believe in slave labour but I do believe in recognising your place in life and trying to make a contribution. This is not an aspergers/NT divide. It is to do with capacity to do something worthwhile with your life that has nothing to do whethr you are autistic or not.

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

You say we have every right to judge our peers and then object to being judged in the same post. Tongue

If that isn't hypocrisy, what is?

Do you actually mean to reserve entirely to yourself the right to judge others?

Oh, I'm terribly sorry, I didn't realise that we are in the presence of a deity.

I do not object to being judged. I object to being predicted without request and on such little information. I consider it the right of everyone to judge their peers. My failings do not make me blind to the failures an successes of others any more than ugliness prevents me from appreciating beauty.

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

Sorry, Erkolos, I meant Louise.

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I do not object to being judged. I object to being predicted without request and on such little information.

Now, Louise, you aren't even making logical arguments. You are predicting, on absolutely no information whatever, the value of others without their request.

Your argument is beginning to sound like a teenage tantrum.

No. That is a JUDGEMENT. Not a prediction. I do not predict what they will be worth in the future. That is the job of employers, professors an anyone else intending to financially invest in them. And I make my judgements with more information than you have about me.

THE VAST MAJORITY of the UK have a fair chance. Very few people do not. 'Net loss' means they use society's resources and contribute nada. Or contribute less than they take to the world.

I had the information that they were of sub-normal intelligence and could not apply themsleves to learning. Anyway, it matters not what they are worth. If they ACT like monkeys, they deserve to be called monkeys.

erkolos Wrote:

Louise18 Wrote:

That is the job of��employers, professors an anyone else intending to financially invest in them.

That is why I mentioned slaves earlier. Every not-perfect "slave" individual would have to "invest" in these "perfect" individuals because they would have to live were the "perfect" individuals would have a higher hierarchical status by birth.

Well no. None of them are perfect it is a scale. And people do not get hierarchical status by birth. They get it through their achievements.

woman from mars Wrote:

louise18 Wrote:

It is perfectly possible for me to find out enough information about someone to decide whether they are a net gain or a net loss to society and i do not see why it would be wrong to do so.

But you don't bother to do this, you judge people upon academic achievement.

You initially responded to a question I asked of you, that you admired the 'once Queens Surgeon', until I pointed out what he had done.

I would also add that in my opinion, based upon life experience & reading, MANY of these academic high achieving powerful people are some of the worst abusers of people on this earth, I am not just referring to domestic abuse, but any abuse. Abuse of what you would consider 'the underlings' in this world people who for whatever reason can' fight back or for their rights.

I have seen it time & time again

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Academic and creative achievements are the best achievements because they last for all time and such a limited number of people are capable of achieving them. I think I would notice if i met someone behind bars. You are deliberately setting me up to have half the information. In real life I do not get deliberately set up to have none of the relevant information. I would get told about the crime before I found out about the achievement. The crime would be in every newspaper. The achievement somewhere in the smallprint.

If it is true that their greatest achievement is getting potty trained. Then they are worthless.

True. I don;t think cleverness makes it less likely that an individual will have committed a crime. And that is a stupid way to organise a school.

erkolos Wrote:

Louise18 Wrote:

Well no. None of them are perfect it is a scale. And people do not get hierarchical status by birth. They get it through their achievements.

Didn't she say gene screening earlier?

Bah, I leave before I say something stupid.

I would screen the eggs to decide if I would have children and hwich eggs I would use. Not to give them an automatic position of power.

woman from mars Wrote:

Louise18 Wrote:

Academic and creative achievements are the best achievements because they last for all time and such a limited number of people are capable of achieving them. I think I would notice if i met someone behind bars. You are deliberately setting me up to have half the information. In real life I do not get deliberately set up to have none of the relevant information. I would get told about the crime before I found out about the achievement. The crime would be in every newspaper. The achievement somewhere in the smallprint.

If you think that 'I am setting you up', you really do have a problem.

How do you think that we numpties obtain our information??

Well I read ...that does help.

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I would get told about the crime before I found out about the achievement. The crime would be in every newspaper. The achievement somewhere in the smallprint.

So you were aware of the crimes of Doctor Harold Shipman & the two Doctors that I read about yesterday before you knew about their achievements?

Yes��possibly Shipman, but SIR Roy Meadows was famous for his so called achievements long before the crime was discovered.

I only ever knew Dr Shipman existed when it turned out he had killed people. And I dont think you have much of an argument here. Everyone assumes people are innocent until they are proven guilty. When they are proven guilty they are given the disgust and the (often inadequate) punishment for their crimes. You set it up as a thought experiment to show that I jump to conclusions. Yes that is probably true. Everyone does it all the time. So what? The fact that I sometimes get the assessment wrong due to lack of information does not establish that the assessment criteria are wrong.

I am not a national socialist. I believe in freemarket capitalism.