Aspies For Freedom - "Like pet monkeys"

I believe that are there are 4 possible purposes to human existence. 1) Personal happiness 2) Maximising the happiness of others 3) Personal Achievement (as in knowledge) 4) The advancement of society's aggregate achievements 5)The pursuit of Justice. It is also possible that there is no point to life and nothing that we do matters at all. I assume that the only way to guarantee that your lifd fulfills any purpose (if indeed there is one), is to pursue all of these things, and therefore the greater the person's success in pursuing them, the better that person and the more deserving they are of life's rewards of pride, respect, and happiness. I believe that the pursuit of justice dictates that not everyone is deserving of happiness and therefore the INDISCRIMINATE pursuit of increasing the happiness of others is counterproductive to that pursuit of justice and therefore a negative. I believe that the pursuit of Justice and society's general pool of knowledge is the most important because it is a contribution that lasts for all eternity whilst the others are extinguished within the lifetime of a single person, or group of people.

Stupid people are not able to contribute to 3,4, or 5 except by luck e.g. they witnessed a murder. People should not be given respect for contributions they made PURELY out of luck where their exploitation of that luck was no greater than the average person.

People should earn respect and happiness in proportion to their contribution to the world and should be given opportunities to contribute in proportion to their capacity to do so. Stand make a logical demonstration of the fallacies. DO NOT Insult the writer.

Oh. Ignore the last two sentences half of it got cut. The appropriate way to respond to someone in a discussion if you believe they are wrong is to demonstrate why they are wrong in a logical manner. I did not invite you to predict what I will or will not believe in the future. I did not invite you to psychoanalyse why I hold the opinions I have. You know nothing about me and you have no right to make such assertions.

erkolos Wrote:

Louise18 Wrote:

I have no interest in a career in politics, and I am prepared to put my neck on the line for my beliefs.

As Louise now gets more and more agitated it seems, she is holding tighter and tighter to her beliefs and even make them more extreme. I think I have seen this among other autistics, including myself. I think the only way we can allow Louise to rethink her ideas is to actually stop the discussion. Maybe by locking the thread, not deleting it at first so she can re-read the stuff she have stated.

Don't you DARE prevent me from responding logically to the arguments presented before me. That is duckign out of an argument you know you can't win.

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

Quote:

I believe that are there are 4 possible purposes to human existence. 1) Personal happiness 2) Maximising the happiness of others 3) Personal Achievement (as in knowledge) 4) The advancement of society's aggregate achievements 5)The pursuit of Justice. It is also possible that there is no point to life and nothing that we do matters at all.

Ok young lady lets start with the 'I believe'.

You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you want to. Freedom of thought. You are not entitled to assume your beliefs to be a true or ideal representation of the state of the world.

'4 possible purposes to human existence'

Good, you used the word 'possible' which shows that even you, the author, thinks that the following statements are suggestions, not absolute truths.

'1) Personal happiness'

I doubt anyone disagrees with that, but it is not linked to intellectual achievement, is it?

'2) Maximising the happiness of others'

Ditto my last response. How does calling someone a 'pet monkey' achieve this, exactly? I'm very interested in your logical reply.

'3) Personal Achievement (as in knowledge)'

Personal achievement can also be measured in parentgood, a race well run, a garden well-tended, a beautiful poem etc. Knowing something you didn't know before is only one form of achievement. I happened to discover a new mathematical truth at the age of twelve. This in no way made me feel as much personal happiness as watching my grandson being born.

'4) The advancement of society's aggregate achievements'

As you have placed this as number 4 is this a) less, b) more or c) equally as important as the above? It is not clear from your post. Are the criteria equal, random or in ascending or descending order of importance? Please explain. Anyway, e.g. clean streets are an important part in the above. If you remember your history you will recall that it was the construction of a sewage system that cleared London of typhoid, not anti-biotics. A sewage system designed and built by engineers and construction workers, not doctors.

'5)The pursuit of Justice'

This is not achieved in the courtroom. In fact, courts are a last resort in a situation where the pursuit of Justice has manifestly failed. If humans were perfect in their dealings with each other a legal system would be unnecessary. After all, justice starts in interpersonal dealings. Even my grandchildren have to deal with issues of justice when the sharing of a toy is under discussion. We do not call a lawyer!

If you see the above responses as 'illogical' and 'visceral', so be it. I appreciate that it is tough to let go of deeply felt (visceral? Wink ) beliefs and hard to see the logic in an opposing argument. But please try. Nowhere in your belief system as outlined by you is there room for the judgement and abuse of others according to intellect. Please reconsider your attitude to those less fortunate than yourself. That attitude does not reflect well on you which is a shame as I like to believe that you might not be really as bigotted as your postings on this thread would suggest.

No the four things I set out before you are the four possible roots of ideologies.Any of them may or may not be the purpose(s) of life. The only person you can prove exist is yourself, (I think therefore I am) therefore making yourself happy is the only one which gives you a certain benefit. However, it is an achievement which ends when you die. The second one is maximising the happiness of others. I consider this to be a fruitless exercise because (1) they may not exist in the first place and (2) even if they do exist your achievement is extinguished when they die. Your achievement is both uncertain and of restricted scope. It can also run counterproductive to the administration of justice: I would not want to do something that gave a rapist a moment of happiness. So (2) is not worth the expenditure of effort unless it makes you happy and is therefore part of achieving goal (1).

Personal Achievement (which can encompass public achievement) is again certain because you know you exist and you can recognise the internal change of increased knowledge. A sense of achievement which is not increased knowledge, or a change in your own thinking pattern is an effect of achievement which contributes to (1) Personal happiness, which is why I said particularly knowledge. It is an internal change which distinct from variations of happiness. Like personal happiness this is certain, but it is also extinguished upon the death of the person.

4) The advancement of society's aggregate achievements is uncertain because you do not know that society exists. However, a big change can alter the course of history and so the potential scope of the achievement and affect lives decades after the person has died. I believe that this is the most worthwhile pursuit because of its scope. Therefore this is, I believe the route that humanity should follow as its most important goal as it is more than worth the wager that it may no texist. It is not mutually exclusive with the other goals I have set out above, and can contribute to the achievement of those goals.

The more of a contribution an individual makes in the area, the better they have used their short time on earth to effect wider change and therefore the more respect they deserve. I do not believe people deserve respect merely for doing what they are paid to do. Construction workers do a menial job for money, and that money is sufficient reward. Doing something that no-one else could have done has to be a more important achievement than doing somehting that most people could do. Having a skill that few other people possess makes you irreplaceable and therefore worth more. High intelligence is currently (and probably always will be) rare.

The first statement is incorrect. Making yourself happy is not the only one that gives you a certain benefit (see my argument further down).

Louise18 Wrote:

[quote=Tigger_the_Wing]

Quote:

I believe that are there are 4 possible purposes to human existence. 1) Personal happiness 2) Maximising the happiness of others 3) Personal Achievement (as in knowledge) 4) The advancement of society's aggregate achievements 5)The pursuit of Justice. It is also possible that there is no point to life and nothing that we do matters at all.

Ok young lady lets start with the 'I believe'.

You are, of course, entitled to believe anything you want to. Freedom of thought. You are not entitled to assume your beliefs to be a true or ideal representation of the state of the world.

'4 possible purposes to human existence'

Good, you used the word 'possible' which shows that even you, the author, thinks that the following statements are suggestions, not absolute truths.

'1) Personal happiness'

I doubt anyone disagrees with that, but it is not linked to intellectual achievement, is it?

'2) Maximising the happiness of others'

Ditto my last response. How does calling someone a 'pet monkey' achieve this, exactly? I'm very interested in your logical reply.

'3) Personal Achievement (as in knowledge)'

Personal achievement can also be measured in parentgood, a race well run, a garden well-tended, a beautiful poem etc. Knowing something you didn't know before is only one form of achievement. I happened to discover a new mathematical truth at the age of twelve. This in no way made me feel as much personal happiness as watching my grandson being born.

'4) The advancement of society's aggregate achievements'

As you have placed this as number 4 is this a) less, b) more or c) equally as important as the above? It is not clear from your post. Are the criteria equal, random or in ascending or descending order of importance? Please explain. Anyway, e.g. clean streets are an important part in the above. If you remember your history you will recall that it was the construction of a sewage system that cleared London of typhoid, not anti-biotics. A sewage system designed and built by engineers and construction workers, not doctors.

'5)The pursuit of Justice'

This is not achieved in the courtroom. In fact, courts are a last resort in a situation where the pursuit of Justice has manifestly failed. If humans were perfect in their dealings with each other a legal system would be unnecessary. After all, justice starts in interpersonal dealings. Even my grandchildren have to deal with issues of justice when the sharing of a toy is under discussion. We do not call a lawyer!

If you see the above responses as 'illogical' and 'visceral', so be it. I appreciate that it is tough to let go of deeply felt (visceral? Wink ) beliefs and hard to see the logic in an opposing argument. But please try. Nowhere in your belief system as outlined by you is there room for the judgement and abuse of others according to intellect. Please reconsider your attitude to those less fortunate than yourself. That attitude does not reflect well on you which is a shame as I like to believe that you might not be really as bigotted as your postings on this thread would suggest.

OK I will answer in a more direct form the issues which I believe were left unaddressed in my first response. 1) I did not say that the pursuit of personal happiness was the only purpose of life. I am not using it to justify my stance on intelligence. I was merely attempting to set out all of the views of the subject. 2)I have said in my previous reply I think is a waste of time 3)Good parenting is a combination of achieving personal happiness (which is 1), making another happy (2) and, depending on how their children turn out (4) and I suppose it does increase the knowledge somewhat (3). The reason I have confined it to knowlege because it is internal experience not covered by one, which makes more sense as a classification because certainty is based on whether it is internal or external.

5) Justice is achieved through legislation which people naturally follow, through the 'good works' of individuals, through good political decision making and in a courtroom. It is undermined by counterproductive pursuits and failings of the same. I dont really see what your point was on this one.

My point was that these are the 6 building blocks, which people place in varying importance according to their ideology. I have then in my previous post demonstrated why I think that 3),4) and 5) are the most important of the list. Intelligence is necessary to pursue both those ends. Intelligent people achieve things of much greater scope than less intelligent people, and are therefore worth more.

Anything I missed?

Oh and big companies are and should be subject to the law and are called to account when they don't adopt good practices. Sure, justice isn't perfect. Thats why it still needs working on.

erkolos Wrote:

woman from mars Wrote:

Erkolos
I really admire you very much.�� Smile

You are a wise & good person.�� Smile

Gee thanks! I hope it isn't just because I show disagreement against a person who says things that are not politically correct.I am not good at giving compliments myself but I think people are writing great stuff at AFF.

I think this is probably what it is. People are always going to like and respect an individual who is automatically complimentary about them and everyone they are close to. Its human nature. It hasn't got anything to do with right or wrong. It has to do with people following their emotions.

I got 7A*s and 3As at GCSE. 4AS at A-level in English, Spanish, History and General Studies and an A in critical thinking AS. All taken a year early. I got 80% on the LNAT. None of my academic work contains spelling errors.

Lucie1 Wrote:

Louise18 Wrote:

Anything I missed?

Yes - you seek to join a profession that concerns itself with justice, fairness and equality in society (based on social norms). Yet you say you will only work with people who are of equal intelligence.
How do you equate this attitude with the ethics of law.

The law is a big profession. Not everyone has to be concerned with every part of it. You can choose which area you go into and therefore refine the people you have to deal with. Just because I believe some people are better than others does not mean that I do not believe they should have equal access to justice.

Natalie Wrote:

What I don't get is why Louise doesn't realize that you can't get very far in life when you hate everyone and everyone hates you (which is what she is doing to herself). Aspie or not, significant life achievements require excellent social connections with other people (and lots of people, at that). No one will want to befriend a snotty kid with delusions of superiority, even if they are as smart or smarter than the said individual. This is just a fact of life, a fact of human nature. If Louise is as intelligent as she attempts to imply, it seems she would have recognized this some time ago.

I am fully aware of this. But I think that some external achievements must be sacrificed for the establishment of truth. I have already made that point about human nature. People like and respect nice people who praise their good points and more frequently keep their negative points to themselves. However that means that in order to get people to do what you want you have to give them warped feedback. I am not going to spend my whole life doing that. I will do it when it is needed to achieve something.

And the numbers were wrong because I thought of additional points that I had forgotten at the start while I was writing it, and then forgot I had written a number at the start. I was completing other tasks at the same time.

And in response to Tigger-the wing. I do not consider my academic achievement to be good. In fact I consider it to be dismal. I am surrounded by people who are beautiful, intelligent, motivated and who do brilliantly academically and in the rest of their lives. I spend most of my time around people who make me look positively stupid. I do, however, think I am better than the people who cannot respond to being educated, who cannot even learn to go to the toilet or to sit still or to speak, or to read or to write or to do anything that would allow any thought process to be communicated to the outside world. Just as I think I am worse than my friends one of whom got the highest mark in Oxford for his first year physics exams. I am fully aware that the sword cuts both ways, and I accept that judgement.

I got A*s in science and an A in maths. Anyone who is familiar with the current educational system knows that anyone who has any ability in maths would easily get an A* and an A at A-level and an A in Further Maths A-level, and at leas a grade 2 on the STEP.

I do not consider perfectionism a flaw, I consider it to be a positive quality. And I don't see how having no respect for people who achieve nothing is imposing perfectionism onto other people.

Whether you do or not, my tutors obviously thought that I fulfilled the admissions criteria.

Tigger_the_Wing Wrote:

I'm sorry - but how exactly is A* or A positively ***? Rolleyes

Louise18 Wrote:

I got A*s in science and an A in maths. Anyone who is familiar with the current educational system knows that anyone who has any ability in maths would easily get an A* and an A at A-level and an A in Further Maths A-level, and at leas a grade 2 on the STEP.

I do not consider perfectionism a flaw, I consider it to be a positive quality. And I don't see how having no respect for people who achieve nothing is imposing perfectionism onto other people.

Then I'm afraid that I have to give up. If you really cannot see the connection
then you probably think that the whole of English Law since Magna Carta is a farce.

Perhaps you should buy your own island with all the huge fees you'll get from your equally amoral corporate clients, buy a flock of sheep and found your own dictatorship.

BTW, has it not occurred to you that the only reason that you are on this board boasting of your academic achievements is because the very same uneducated non-achievers you despise so much fought for your equality?

If not for them, we females would still be excluded from further education and the vote. The reason your age is important is because we 'older ladies' remember being barred from many careers solely on the grounds of being female. OUR mothers had to give up careers on marriage. Many were sacked with no redress after WWI and WWII to provide jobs for returning soldiers. Women STILL only earn 60% of men for the same work, and most are still excluded from higher paid careers. And that is in the western capitalist countries. You wouldn't hold your current views if you were 60.

I did not say that the suffragette movement was not an achievement, or that consideration should not be taken for the generation people were brought up in and what opportunities they had. But to do that they had to have ambition, the desire to do something with their lives other than bring up children. They had to educate themselves at home. Formulate plans of how to change government policies, go against the crowd and fight for what they believed in. They could not have done that without some intelligence and knowledge. Those children sat in a special needs school who can't feed themselves, can't use a toilet and can't communicate could not have achieved what the suffragettes achieved. Great achievements require other qualities besides intelligence to make them happen, but they cannot be done without intelligence. And the more intelligent a person is, the more power they have at their disposal if they choose to use it.

I despise my mother for not going to university in a generation where people had fought for her opportunity to go, and where she would not have had to have paid any of the costs herself. I do not react the same way to my grandmother being forced to drop out of grammar school to get a job in the war. But this is 2007 in the UK. It would be different in 1940, it would be different in Uganda. But in 2007 in the UK I do not think expecting someone to contribute to society at least as much as they take from it constitutes too much to ask or constitutes perfectionism. People have opportunities. It might not be a perfect system but people have free education, free school meals, and social services. There are opportunities for adults to brush up the skills they missed when they were young. They have more opportunities than any generation before them, and working class people from those generations became successful and contributed, so I don't see what's wrong with expecting them to today.