Aspies For Freedom

I am just curious, since your main reason for lack of social contact appears to be in your own words down to a choice to avoid people, and down to an intense fear of closeness, friendship and intimacy? Regardless of where this fear comes from (social skills problems, trauma etc.), that seems very classic Schizoid social behaviour to me.

That sounds more like paranoid personality to me (suspicion about personal questions and people's motivations etc.) - as far as I'm aware with AvPD it's more a question of pervasive fears of beng judged negatively, being convinced that one's social and conversational skills, sometimes one's looks etc. are "below par" and being terrified of others discovering one's perceived flaws. (The lady I quoted in my first reply is classic there - she is obsessed with wanting an AS diagnosis because she is convinced someone will "discover" her social skill problems and confront her claiming she had AS - since 9 doctors including 4 or so specialists have said she does not have AS, it seems evident that the social skill problems are all in her head)

You know, I was going to use my friend back home who is diagnosed with Borderline PD but who seems half-Borderline (she definitely has the "I hate you/don't leave me" thing and is constantly manipulating people and situations for drama etc.) and half-AvPD, as an example of my point.... but thinking about it, yes you're right... Darnit!

She does indeed appear "almost" paranoid and is very very guarded and can be abrupt and "rude" as soon as someone gets "personal". ("They must want something, they must suspect something, why else would they ask?" etc.)

She is generally very guarded, not in the same way that I know I sometimes *appear* to be (because it often doesn't cross my mind to talk about certain things unless something sets me off/triggers a memory - it doesn't always seem obvious to me that others do not already know what I know, and it is too frustrating to communicate what is necessary as I tend to "have" to convey the full picture which quickly becomes fragmented and derails).

More that she, while she is obsessed with gathering dirt on other people, especially her neighbours whom she despises (it often seems like she is trying to deal with her own low self esteem by teaching herself that others are much worse - not a bad strategy if she didn't constantly start actual feuds with them!), seems to believe everyone else also seeks out dirt on her and thus is trying to protect herself from such observations by keeping her personality tightly wrapped up and hidden.

I used to wonder if she might have AS, especially when she told me about how she hated public transport. I thought maybe it is touch sensitivity and not liking sudden touch and so on (few things make me jump - and want to hit out! - more than someone occasionally gently touching my leg), but when she is out with her friends she has no such problems.

She will make a huge drama about how she "can't sit next to a stranger" on the train,

The way she dislikes closeness to people is different to the way I dislike touch too (cuddles and greetings with relatives used to be horrible for me sensory-wise especially the smell of their saliva, and even the smoothest facial hair felt like needles, although thankfully it is now only some forms of soft touch that offend my senses - I do enjoy firm hugs though, and nowadays hate polite kisses mainly because I never read the signals right and end up doing one too few or too many or hit the other person on the nose with my face etc.).

She *claims* to dislike touch and closeness but with people like myself, who frankly are too unaware of her small dramas, she is spontaneous and does not at all react with the usual "Oh no you can't touch me!" spiel.

I remember the utterly bemused look on our mutual friend's (she being my first real permanent friend I made, all because I "needed" someone to guide me at our tap dance teacher's birthday party - see below Re: "using" people) face after I had said my goodbyes to my BPD friend.

"She HUGS you?!"

You see, apparently said friend decided once upon a time (years after we first met I might add!) decided that she disliked people touching her, and me being one of the few friends she has who do not "read" her body language and her psychological cues, I had absolutely no idea!

I make a point of hugging everyone goodbye when I see them the last time before I go back to the UK, and in a way I guess she sensed that I don't "buy" (not even register!) her rejecting, avoidant facade and reacted naturally just as she probably would all the time, if it wasn't for her anxieties.

Not really a fear of social interaction as such, although that was originally part of one of those psychobabble theories that tried to explain autism as just "being afraid to get close" etc.

But there are newer theories and ramblings out and about (and in books) about "exposure anxiety" (Donna Williams coined that phrase and while some of the neurobiological conclusions are very illogical, it describes what I experience very well), about reactions that do not at all relate to conscious "fears of" (failure, embarrassment etc.) but about an inability to function while you are aware of your actions.

Being 'exposed' (confronted, scrutinised, watched) makes you more aware of what you are doing at the time, and this seems to often stop people from completing the action. (George in the book "Sam and George" is practically anorexic because he cannot make himself eat "for himself" - his mother has to talk aloud about how the food she is making is "for Sam" and then leave it lying unattended, with nobody else paying attention to George. Then he can connect and make the movements necessary to nibble at the food a bit)

For me even just the presence of someone whom I know well enough to register them as "a person", that takes up my focus and I often *cannot* pull my focus from "being with that person" towards an action I am supposed to perform, I cannot divide my focus.

Thankfully precious few people are "real people" in my memory, in the sense that I can feel close enough with them that I can fully hold that person in my attention and awareness though...

That was definitely something that I have experienced since long before I was really aware of people other than perhaps my parents, and judgement or embarrassment only occasionally came into it, in my late teens.

Me too... although I do sometimes like to go places as long as someone I know well is with me the first time - if it is a social event I often have been guilty of "using" people (although to be honest most of my few friendships developed from this) as a go-between that others would talk to, because I eventually realised that I seemed unable to think or react fast enough in most such situations to be able to respond without shutting down.

If it is something I want to do (and I mean I want to be very much consciously aware of what is going on and I want to remember it) then I almost *need* to do it on my own, because unless an impulse catches me unawares, it feels almost as if the other person's presence is physically pulling my focus towards them (literally it feels like something is pulling strings on my upper right back), causing me to lose all connection to what I actually want or intend to do.

The lady who diagnosed me (after referral by a neurologist who diagnosed "an Asperger like syndrome" - he had an odd way with words) put this in my report, most of it was more from her experience than from what I wrote to her though (I sent her a few dozen pages of different thoughts and memories, plus the document I'd originally sent the neurologist):

(The bit I object to is that she refers to "emotions" - what she seems to label as such is not the same was what I attach value, meaning and emotion to. It's more the subject/object of my focus than "emotions" that I can't 'connect with' when expected to instantly talk about them)

I am too, although I do have attentional/memory issues as well - ADD meds do work for me because they help me block out things and stabilise my perceptions but the only ADD people I "resonate with" are ones, usually male and diagnosed past the age of Thirty, who also have an ASD.

Btw, it is more and more acknowledged that those who have "pure" autism without any comorbids, especially without ones that cause particular behavioural issues such as aggression, are least likely to be diagnosed and end up included in research and case studies.

Spit roast in case anyone is wondering... Damnit how do I stop the cartoon chicken in my head doing "breakdance" in a pool of spittle now?

Uh, yes that's why I asked. I was wondering why you mentioned Schizotypal did fit you but decided Schizoid didn't suit you.

I was, as I stated clearly, curious. I'm curious and want to know how many things work, I'm sorry if that's a crime in your eyes.

People who are visual thinkers (rather than verbal ones), as well as autistic people, who often tend to have strong sensory memories (as opposed to remembering abstractions of those sensory impressions), usually have memories going back to well before they could speak.

Most NTs on the other hand tend to remember only from an age where their thinking had become verbal (usually when they learned to talk).

In fact there is a huge overlap with NVLD and that usually brings with it specific LDs in maths as well.

That's, um, interesting...

Noetic Wrote:

That's, um, interesting...

You don't believe me!  

I do believe you!