Aspies For Freedom - How to separate AS from Avoidant PD?

If we're talking about an adult (I am 25), what characteristics does Asperger's share with Avoidant Personality Disorder?

What characteristics of Asperger's don't match with Avoidant Personality Disorder?

I'm wondering if it's easy for a diagnostician to separate these two conditions in an adult.

And the question is, is it possible to have both conditions at the same time?

theosoph Wrote:

I also have many APD traits but I also have a strange ability in solving technical problems. I can find problems in computer programs just by staring at the code and I fix all sorts of machines. I recently fixed my wachine machine and the air conditioning on my truck. That's how I have convinced my myself that I have AS and nothing but AS.

The thing with me, though, is that I can't fix/take anything apart for my life, and I am absolutely horrible at Math (despite trying hard at it for a while, because I was interested in programming.) I would have gone further with computer programming if I only had the Math skills, but I learned through experimentation that "I just didn't have it."

So what makes my case more confusing is that I am STRICTLY in the less-typical, creative subtype of AS (from my research, this is the type that very often includes AD/HD, and sometimes Bipolar), and I really don't have any practical/pragmatic abilities (unless utilized in an extreme rote fashion, every day, otherwise I "forget" how to do it) at all.

As far as being logical, I'm not sure about that; however I do know that I'm very analytical. The one official IQ test I took, the test giver said I was "an analytical thinker." I've read that Aspies are logical quite often, but a few sources I've found online say that some of us are excellent analytical thinkers.

Athlynne Wrote:

Batman said:

Quote:

But Athlynne, you did have unpleasant social experiences.. am I right?��Or at least, they were unpleasant to your mind?

Yes, I did...but this began just after the social anxiety began.��The anxiety caused the bad social experiences, not the other way around.

Schizoid?��Oh, hell.��Let's see.��Apparently those with schizoid disorder have few acitivities that give them pleasure.��That doesn't work.��I have a close relationship with my sister, and I'm not always cold.��Hermit-like, yes.

gemtnt said:

Quote:

Auties and Aspies:
1. STIM. Or did so noticeably when younger. Hand flapping, rocking, etc.
2. Love to watch rotating objects, like clothes dryers, chickens turning in a spit, etc.
3. Have unusual voices and speech mannerisms, if they do talk. A tendency towards echolalia, conspicuously different voice quality.

1.��Yes, sometimes.
2.��Big yes!
3.��Echolalia, yes, a little, when stressed.��My voice also tends to be flat, and stays around the same volume.

<hugs>

Athie

Hmm, I forgot about that echolalia thing.  I actually do this very frequently, moreso when younger but still, I love to repeat things that others say.  I like to imitate, as well, especially when the person has an unusual voice.  I've always been good at mimicry and sometimes I also imitate others behavior, for the hell of it.

About voice being flat, I don't think that really applies to me; but I do seem to have a problem regulating the volume of my voice, it seems to be inconsistent and I'm not always aware of it (people have to tell me.)

Athlynne, I don't think I'm Schizoid either.  I was DXed with Dysthymia in the past but that was when I was going through depression in adolescence, oddly enough at the same time I was extremely paranoid and I believe it was the paranoia that led to my "breakdown" more than anything else.

I'm still a paranoid person.  So I say more Schizotypal than Schizoid.  For I have had tendencies for "magical thinking" in the past (some of them enough to be worrisome) and of course intense fascination with the Occult, unexplained phenomena, and so on.

MolotovCocktail Wrote:

Well, from what I researched, a person who has Avoidant Personality Disorder will usually avoid any and all social situations and settings. Also, they tend to be very shy and will also avoid people in general, not just crowds or groups, because they tend to be afraid of other people. I don't think stimming or obsessive rituals is part of the diagnosis from what I researched. People with Avoidant Personality Disorder will also have an inferiority complex, even though both their physical and mental skills are much more than adequate.

With Aspergers Syndrome or HFA, people who have that usually have poor social skills, sensory issues, obsessions, very literal thinking, or sometimes tend to be very "right-brained". With HFA, there is usually a language delay (as I had). As gemtnt pointed out, some Aspies tend to avoid social situations later in life due to experience.

Very "right brained" would mean more a "feeling" or "creative" kind of person, than a logical/organized type? If so, maybe that helps to define my comorbid Avoidant PD. I'm not very pragmatic/logical.

Poor social skills in group settings is what I have; with individuals I'm comfortable with (only specific people tho), I'm fine. I don't know about sensory issues at the age of 25, although I am noise-sensitive and only wear specific clothing. Literal thinking used to be heavy, now I'm a little better.

First question, would those with Avoidant PD (without AS) have trouble understanding nonverbal cues such as facial expression, or "subtext" in social situations?

Secondly, would those with Avoidant PD (without AS) exhibit a deficiency in theory of mind?
(Quick defintion of "theory of mind": the concept that those around you think the same way, have the same wants, needs, desires, etc.)

Third, is it conceivable that many Aspergians have comorbid Avoidant PD, or at least a lot of traits resembling it?
One example of an Asperger's trait also found in Avoidant PD is rigid, inflexible routines, obsessive hobbies, etc, (sticking with the familiar), preferring the known to the unknown, etc.

It looks like there's a lot of overlapping between Asperger's and Avoidant PD, and to the untrained eye (without examining the subject's developmental history, etc.) it looks like someone with Asperger's could easily be misdiagnosed as simply Avoidant Personality Disorder.

One last important question here is if Asperger's children or Avoidant PD children are more likely to have trouble with self-help skills and adaptive behaviors.

I definitely have had some delays with self-help skills and certain adaptive behaviors, but I don't see how Avoidant PD can figure in that... Avoidant PD is not involved in cognition, and should be separate from that.

And yet what's confusing is this: Asperger's kids are not supposed to have trouble with self-help skills or adaptive behaviors, and yet I had some minor delays here and there, often related to spatial/dyspraxic problems (learning how to fix a tie at the right age, covering books in school, tying shoes a bit late, holding utensils the wrong way, folding shirts improperly.)

Chimera Wrote:

tenaciouscj Wrote:

Still nobody has said what NVLD means.

NVLD=NonVerbal Learning Disability

it is a really confusing name for a disability in which the person has difficulty with nonverbal communication such as body language, spatial skills, and math.

I have all these difficulties, but isn't this pretty much the same as AS, anyway..? Wouldn't most people with AS have at least a few traits of NVLD...?

Seems less like a comorbid and more a part of AS, to me.

Chimera Wrote:

Batman55 Wrote:

What characteristics of Asperger's don't match with Avoidant Personality Disorder?

Maybe the time of onset...?

"The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, pp. 664-665) describes Avoidant Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of social inhibition, feelings of inadequacy, and hypersensitivity to negative evaluation, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following...(http://www.ptypes.com/avoidantpd.html)"

I fit all criteria for Avoidant PD. But I've read that it can occur with Asperger's as a comorbid; in other words, you can have both conditions.

Chimera Wrote:

However, as I have gotten to know people on this forum, I have found out that some aspies do not have good math skills.

Really? Just some Aspies?

It perhaps doesn't speak well of your AS knowledge for me to find out you "never knew" some Aspies are poor at Math, until you came on this forum.

I am disappointed. Ever since I came to AFF, I have been preaching the good word: this stereotype is far, FAR from universal in terms of Asperger's. It needs to stop.

Chimera Wrote:

I have learned so very much on this forum.

I personnally was told that I couldn't aspie (from PhD level "Professionals" with years of experience in the field) b/c I have poor math skills and that is a distinguishing aspect of AS & ASD. And spatial skills too good for NLD

I would be ashamed to be associated with professionals who believe stereotypes like that are actually part of the AS/ASD criteria.

For the record, both my Math skills and spatial skills are very poor. What does this suggest to you..?

Arctoris Wrote:

You have to remember that until recently, the Aspergers and Autism diagnosis was much narrower and typically only included the savants and a few others. Therefore, many of these people were educated with this definition and therefore still use it.

That's what I was thinking.. perhaps I should have included that in my last comment..   Rolleyes

Yeah, it does seem that some of the stereotypes are loosening up a bit, now, for a broader and more inclusive grasp of ASD...  but still, it's not quite enough to satisfy me.  I'm one of the biggest opponents to the "Math skills" stereotype, and what's more, even the "genius IQ" stereotype bothers the hell out of me.

IMHO, it's very likely there's a lot of folks with AS out there who have average intelligence, like me, it's just that they may not be as noticeable because they don't have the typical academic/scientific interests.  I have no interest/skill in either area, my only interests are in art/creativity and entertainment media, and even then I'm far from being any kind of "gifted specialist."  Far from it, in my honest assessment.

tenaciouscj Wrote:

Batman, what about your art? I thought you were gifted in art. I also think the people who were educated in the old definition of autism need to update their knowledge to include the new information that is out there. Otherwise, how can they claim to be experts in diagnosing autism?

I do seem to have some "idiosyncratic" ability in some narrow categories of art, but it is not orthodox and basically goes against how art is taught. I would not call myself gifted in art because I have not been able to learn spatial representation and perspective--these things are exceedingly difficult for me. So, realistically, I don't think you could call me gifted in art.

honestjohn Wrote:

our honest John, did not fit with the heretofore known "definition" of aspergers (though I was avoiding all labels). The previous parameters specifically excluded kids who were funny- like witty, comical, superbly developed with language skills John. John, as a couple of you mentioned, also has horrid abilities in math and math reasoning. His composite IQ is ("only" -who cares) 105, but that is becasue his math and working memory is 85. However, his spatial ability is quite superior. He is also very, very imaginative and talkative - and compassionate - also excluded in soime lists. He also seems similar to you, tenaciouscj, as his art abilities are very good but unorthodox, he is unteachable in art. (He has no interest in others' techniques - I am not an artist so maybe that is par for the course). Way back when he was barley 3 years old, he could already draw in 3 dimensions, with perfect scale and perspective - he even gave shadows to his pictures ... sorry, boasting a bit, he's quite good. I gahave seen him draw with his eyes closed, it seems he knows what he is going to draw when he first puts his pencil down - he sometimes doesn't lift the pencil till the picture is done. No erasures. I guess that is just called natural ability. It is a shame that when he is struggling through the tedium of school work, he loses his inspiration. Summer is his prolific time.

Your boasting is inconsiderate to me. I am 26 and art is one of my few gifts, and you are telling me your 3 year old son could draw with 3 dimensions--and I still cannot.

I have serious deficits in both Math and spatial skills and I am not good at anything. Except art perhaps, but apparently your son is a hundred times better than me.

Thank you for mentioning my name alongside tenaciouscj with unorthodox skills... that was nice of you (sarcasm)

tenaciouscj Wrote:

But I am doing just the same things and some people have told me I am gifted. That's why I say the same about you. Art doesn't have to just be about perspective and spatial representation, originality is very important.

I'm not gifted when a 3 year old is able to learn spatial skills, and I am 26 and still unable to learn it.

Your positivity with me is heretofore contradicted by honestjohn's description.

I am good for nothing. I am defective. I am s**t.

Note that my "full-scale" IQ test when I was 15 landed an overall score of 99--6 points less than honestjohn's son.

I just can't win.

I note that my spatial deficits, with math deficits, would easily place me in the category of NVLD. However, if you fit NVLD criteria... can you also fit AS criteria?

Or must it be one or the other?

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