It was once suggested to me that I might have Avoidant Personality Disorder rather than AS, but while my aversion to many social situations could be seen as stemming from either condition, my reasons are not primarily those of Avoidant Personality Disorder. I avoid social situations not because I fear being rejected or looking foolish, but because I feel mentally overloaded and uncomfortable when social demands, or the demands of learning new skills, intrude into my mental "space" and try to compete with my train of thought. This discomfort could be aspie, ADD, or schizoid in origin (or, as I strongly suspect, a combination of all three), but I really don't think it's avoidant. Of course, if I have misrepresented any conditions here, I will welcome feedback from those more knowledgeable. This is just my best guess.[/b]
Would repetitive rituals, preference for sameness, inflexible routines be a common diagnostic feature found in Avoidant Personality Disorder as well?
I see my routines as more reflective as Asperger's because despite being able to handle social situations "fairly well," I really prefer not to attend social events because, as you say, my train of thought begins to get "intruded upon" and all that "NT acting" starts building up and eventually I feel "out of place"... could be this a kind of overstimulation, which is more along the lines of AS than AvPD?
I would like to point out, also, that I am almost certainly NOT Schizoid as I care intensely about what others think about me, desire emotional reassurance, and I do desire friends despite not knowing how to establish relationships and so on. I have a lot of trouble with social cues and everything I've found to be part of "the hidden curriculum" in my research, and the difficulties were greater in childhood. I remember a tendency I used to have where I would be disagreeable to other's opinions and let them know about it, bluntly (tactless, sorta) and I would also try to force people into believing the same opinions I had. I had to "drive my point home" although now with social anxiety, I don't do this much anymore (not in public anyhow, but if you've read my posts on AFF, you know I'm like this.)
To those who know about AvPD and AS, does the above sound more Asperger's with comorbid Avoidance, or just plain Avoidance?
Whew. This describes me pretty well too. I was starting to get a little worried, reading for the first time about APD, because I see some of myself in its description.
However, one thing that really stuck out for me is that, with APD, the tendency to avoid social situations stems from an unpleasant or traumatic social experience. (having been rejected, etc.) When my first therapist was trying to trace back my agoraphobia to its point of origin, we couldn't find what set it off. The anxiety I live with just broke through one day, like it had been stuffed down too long, which it had. I believe that I've always been this way and just controlled and hid it well for years until it became too much. Agoraphobia (which seems rather like Avoidant Personality Disorder, I wonder if they'll end up being merged into one) didn't adequately explain my anxiety, and didn't address my obsessive nature or my feelings of being different from the other kids.
People with APD don't have the "special interest" symptom, do they? That would be one way to separate APD and AS. Batman, I know you and I both have lacked the knowledge of social cues and how to read expressions, and have tried to learn this from observing others. Would this be uniquely Aspie? It seems to me, and I may be wrong 'cause I'm very new to this, that those with social phobias stemming from bad social experiences would have this social knowledge that comes easily to NTs. They would not have the "oops, wrong planet" feeling because they, unlike us, are wired "normally".
Am I making sense? I want to think more about this...thank you for bringing this up, Batman.
<hugs>
Athie
But Athlynne, you did have unpleasant social experiences.. am I right? Or at least, they were unpleasant to your mind?
What makes it difficult to untangle my "mental profile" is that at the same time I'm very poor with social comprehension and theory of mind, I also fear being rejected and looking foolish, because it has sometimes happened to me in the past. I have had lots of unpleasant social experiences... but nothing "traumatic," so the idea that I have a developmental disorder tied to childhood trauma is just plain wrong. But I mean, social anxiety (fear of looking foolish, etc.) is also very common for people with AS for obvious reasons. If you're self-aware AS then you almost certainly will have social anxiety. If you don't know how to talk to people "the right way" and you're self-conscious, then social anxiety is the logical result. Many people on AFF (so I've found) do have social anxiety.
I believe you can have Avoidant Personality with Asperger's at the same time... somewhere in Donna Williams website she mentions that they do sometimes go together.
Athlynne you may want to look into Schizoid Personality Disorder and Avoidant PD to make sure they don't define you better than AS. I have ruled out Schizoid but I can't rule out Avoidant... so I think it's comorbid to my Asperger's. Agree?
Athlynne you may want to look into Schizoid Personality Disorder and Avoidant PD to make sure they don't define you better than AS. I have ruled out Schizoid but I can't rule out Avoidant...
I am just curious, since your main reason for lack of social contact appears to be in your own words down to a choice to avoid people, and down to an intense fear of closeness, friendship and intimacy? Regardless of where this fear comes from (social skills problems, trauma etc.), that seems very classic Schizoid social behaviour to me.
Have you considered the possibility that Asperger's may be involved, instead of the thousand other possibilities you suggest? Have you considered the possibility that I looked into Schizoid on my own and figured out it doesn't fit me?
You're really starting to aggravate me and about 2-3 more "disagreement" posts from yours you will be history on my computer screen as the Ignore button will be utilized, so take your distrusting nature and use it to help others realize they have no place on AFF, just like you are doing with me.
I'll talk to you on the combined type Tourette's/rapid cycling bipolar forum, once I find it.
I say why worry about the more complex and esoteric conditions when what it is probably is, is Aspergers or HFA? I think all this stuff about Schizoid personalities and bipolar is only clouding the issue and confusing some of us.
But is this really helping anything? Surely the most important thing is for Batman55 to establish if he has Asperger's?
But is this really helping anything? Surely the most important thing is for Batman55 to establish if he has Asperger's?
I was, as I stated clearly, curious. I'm curious and want to know how many things work, I'm sorry if that's a crime in your eyes.
Ah, I wasn't trying to say it was a crime. It's just that I can see that people are getting confused when all these other conditions are being brought into the equation.
Not all Aspies are good at maths - that's a stereotype we really have to get away from.
I hope it's not forbidden to quote from the ICD-10:
Disorders of adult personality and behaviour (F60-F69)
This block includes a variety of conditions and behaviour patterns of clinical significance which tend to be persistent and appear to be the expression of the individual's characteristic lifestyle and mode of relating to himself or herself and others. Some of these conditions and patterns of behaviour emerge early in the course of individual development, as a result of both constitutional factors and social experience, while others are acquired later in life. Specific personality disorders (F60.-), mixed and other personality disorders (F61.-), and enduring personality changes (F62.-) are deeply ingrained and enduring behaviour patterns, manifesting as inflexible responses to a broad range of personal and social situations. They represent extreme or significant deviations from the way in which the average individual in a given culture perceives, thinks, feels and, particularly, relates to others. Such behaviour patterns tend to be stable and to encompass multiple domains of behaviour and psychological functioning. They are frequently, but not always, associated with various degrees of subjective distress and problems of social performance.
F60 Specific personality disorders
These are severe disturbances in the personality and behavioural tendencies of the individual; not directly resulting from disease, damage, or other insult to the brain, or from another psychiatric disorder; usually involving several areas of the personality; nearly always associated with considerable personal distress and social disruption; and usually manifest since childhood or adolescence and continuing throughout adulthood.
…
F60.6 Anxious [avoidant] personality disorder
Personality disorder characterized by feelings of tension and apprehension, insecurity and inferiority. There is a continuous yearning to be liked and accepted, a hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism with restricted personal attachments, and a tendency to avoid certain activities by habitual exaggeration of the potential dangers or risks in everyday situations.
(Italics are mine)
I read it like this: If – because of AS – you are experiencing "problems of social performance" and therefore "personal distress" you could develop APD in consequence.
The question for me is whether the "hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism" applies to verbal and nonverbal clues of your vis-a-vis – I'd never get nonverbal clues unless hit in the face 
.
For "habitual exaggeration of the potential dangers" you would need some Theory of Mind, I guess.
Not all Aspies are good at maths - that's a stereotype we really have to get away from.
In fact there is a huge overlap with NVLD and that usually brings with it specific LDs in maths as well.
So then I would assume NVLD often includes problems with sequencing? Or is that more Dyspraxia?
I had some "strange" problems with Math. If I was taught something in the same day and learned it properly, it seemed like I "got it" and the person teaching me was convinced I was actually pretty smart.
But then 1-2 days later I would forget everything I learned, almost as if I hadn't been taught the lesson in the first place. In such a case, if I had to apply the specific material, I'd have to find a way to re-trigger it in my mind (associatively) or I would have no chance of being correct.
For "habitual exaggeration of the potential dangers" you would need some Theory of Mind, I guess.
I must have Theory of Mind, then.
What now?
…
I must have Theory of Mind, then.
What now?
I guess that means that your "case" cannot be decided by just looking at the above-mentioned symptom.
What about "hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism". If (e. g. in a meeting) someone (your boss) states something truly stupid, do you (a.) nod approvingly or do you (b.) tell him/her the truth?
[a. could mean NT, APD or shy Aspie, b. would mean Aspie – or someone who really wants to get the bosses position by "turning him/her over"]
…
I must have Theory of Mind, then.
What now?
I guess that means that your "case" cannot be decided by just looking at the above-mentioned symptom.
What about "hypersensitivity to rejection and criticism". If (e. g. in a meeting) someone (your boss) states something truly stupid, do you (a.) nod approvingly or do you (b.) tell him/her the truth?
[a. could mean NT, APD or shy Aspie, b. would mean Aspie – or someone who really wants to get the bosses position by "turning him/her over"]
It's definitely A. I tend to be extra careful around bosses. In general I usually suppress what I really think. I do worry about what others think of me, there's no doubt.
I really want to make all social interaction "smooth" and "painless" and "conflict-free." To some degree acting formally (I tend to have a very restrained, formal approach to things) allows me to achieve this, and I'm bothered when I have to "break character" if someone with a narcissistic/sarcastic personality comes along. Those types of people are very "abstract" in their behavior and I can't really gauge what's going on, what they really mean (social subtext), etc.
Batman said:
I'm still a paranoid person. So I say more Schizotypal than Schizoid. For I have had tendencies for "magical thinking" in the past (some of them enough to be worrisome) and of course intense fascination with the Occult, unexplained phenomena, and so on.
We'll get along great, then.
<hugs>
Do you have those healing magicks ready for me, yet?
John, as a couple of you mentioned, also has horrid abilities in math and math reasoning. His composite IQ is ("only" -who cares) 105, but that is becasue his math and working memory is 85. However, his spatial ability is quite superior.
That sounds quite like my spread of abilities... I am bad at many areas of math, and my short-term (working) memory is crap; occasionally when I am driving somewhere I will forget where I am supposed to be going and drive back home. I have very good visuo-spatial abilities, though, which I've read is unusual for Asperger's (of which I have a semi-official diagnosis) and Nonverbal Learning Disorder (fully-officially diagnosed). Does your son also have strong verbal/reading abilities? We seem to be very much alike based on what I've read... I tend to be rather quiet rather than talkative, though.
Official testing I did back in October proved that my full scale IQ was completely irrelevant to anything, as is the case with many (dare I say most) Aspies due to the extremely uneven spread of abilities. My IQ ranges from 78 (borderline retarded) to 176 (genius-level), based on the specific subject that is being tested. My full scale IQ was within the high-normal range, but it is still rather common for me to have times when I feel very unintelligent and other times when I feel "gifted". Sometimes they happen simultaneously.
As far as I know AS and NLD are basically the same thing and that people diagnosed as one of them often meet all the criteria for the other. One site I was reading stated that psychiatrists were more prone to diagnosing people as AS, while neuropsychologists tended to prefer the NLD diagnosis. Apparently many professionals feel that NLD/AS are unecessary divisions of the same condition.
Based on what I've read, though, it seems that the criteria for NLD does not include stimming/repetetive movements or intense obsessions with certain topics. I certainly have both of those.