Yuck- this is time out?
Palestine had its chance at existance in 1948, and it didn't take it. In the words of Abba Eban, "Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."
The Iraq war may or may not have been waged on Israel's behalf, but it's not benefitting Israel. Israel benefitted from the Iran-Iraq strife, and not that Iraq's not fighting Iran, Iran can concentrate on Intifada strategy.
Zionism may have been a bad idea to begin with, but now that its been implemented, there's nowhere to go but forward.
I was just reading UN resolution 181, and its kinda interesting to realise that if it had been implemented according to plan, Jerusalem would be an international city. The concept is interesting.
What I meant was, now that there are so many Jews in Israel, and a Jewish state, and tons of Jews expelled from Arab countries as backlash, there is a greater need than ever for a Jewish state.
I am Jewish, and aware that the Gemorrah and quite a few of a the tanaim opposed the idea of a Jewish State/ mass migration to Isreal before the messiah. And the Messiah isn't here.
Oh well, I guess I killed another thread
But at least an Israel thread got 27 responses which is probably 26 more than it would get in any list dominated by american aspies. Nice to be among more open-minded people.
Jerry Newport
Say Dreamer....The Isrealis will give the Isreal back just as soon as you return Australia to the Aborigines......
Say Dreamer....The Isrealis will give the Isreal back just as soon as you return Australia to the Aborigines......
I don't think anyone is asking Israel to give back all of its land. But it is fair to demand closing the settlements and a withdrawal to the borders before 1967. However, I think the bad faith of the arab community could be said to have resulted in a forfeiture of at least some of the land taken up by those settlements.
Jerry
Why should Israel have to return to pre-1967 borders? These borders were won in a defensive war. What other nation returns land won in a DEFENSIVE war? :-(
Jockey,
Ever take history? I guess not. The USA has won several defensive wars and turned over most of the captured territory to the offending nations. We did that with Cuba and the Phillipines in the Spanish-American war. We did it with Japan after WW2. Italy was conquered in defense in WW2 and not kept. Germany was eventually allowed to reunite after many years.
You have a point but not a real practical one. Long-term occupation in the name of defense has failed. You don't see an Iron Curtain over eastern europe anymore, do you? Russia annexed those nations in the name of "defense" from Nazi Germany.
There are few colonys anywhere for the same reason. People, no matter who they are, really need and appreciate sovereignty. That is a big reason why Israel was created too.
I think some of the settlements should remain because the Israelis have been far more sincere in peace-seeking than their neighbors. But the fewer, the better. The long-term cost far outweighs any benefit.
Jerry
Say Mr Newport; Ever take geography??? Guess not...Look at a map of Israel minus the West Bank...You can spit across that narrow strip of land between the West Bank and the Med...The last thing Israel needs is to let a hostlie power move into that area where they could divide the Israel in about 20mins....
Your history analogies are flawed too: The US returned Japanese and German territory only when those nations were utterly crushed, the hostile governments removed and they no longer posed any threat.Indeed, we installed friendly gov'ts and have had troops and bases there ever since....It doesn't matter what Israel does with the settlements or the West Bank..The hostile govt's to Israel; Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Egypt will remain in power and hostile to the Israelis.......
The US took Cuba and the Phillipines from Spain and did not return them once the Spanish American war was over...Cuba was granted it's independance while we held on to the Phillipines for 40 some years...We also took Puerto Rico which is still part of the US.....
Say Mr Newport; Ever take geography??? Guess not...Look at a map of Israel minus the West Bank...You can spit across that narrow strip of land between the West Bank and the Med...The last thing Israel needs is to let a hostlie power move into that area where they could divide the Israel in about 20mins....
Jerry: According to your "logic", every nation should have a neutral moat around it to protect it from other nations. Not needed if the israelis and arabs ever learn to be good neighbors.
Busman: Your history analogies are flawed too: The US returned Japanese and German territory only when those nations were utterly crushed, the hostile governments removed and they no longer posed any threat.
So what?
Busman: Indeed, we installed friendly gov'ts and have had troops and bases there ever since....It doesn't matter what Israel does with the settlements or the West Bank..The hostile govt's to Israel; Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Egypt will remain in power and hostile to the Israelis......
Jerry: They have a right to remain as hostile as they chose, just as the average israeli feels hostility to arabs and christians. But none of them have a right to act on it. There is no law that says any neighbor has to like his neighbors.
. Busman: The US took Cuba and the Phillipines from Spain and did not return them once the Spanish American war was over..
Jerry: But they were eventually returned.
Busman: Cuba was granted it's independance while we held on to the Phillipines for 40 some years...We also took Puerto Rico which is still part of the US.....
True but thanks for proving most of my point. The overwhelming majority of land taken as a result of defensive actions has eventually been returned to the offenders.
However, in the case of Israel, I think SOME of what the arabs lost in 1967 should remain under Israel's control. After all, the arabs started that war.
Jerry
I think it is good if Syria withdraws its troops.
Meanwhile, I hear that stateside, "American Idol" has been replaced by a singing competition.
Jerry Newport
[quote="Sjöjungfru
Withdrawal is already underway.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_...343119.stm[/quote]
Now if Israel could only withdraw the settlers that never should have been there in the first place!! But I hardly expect that to happen. Lately, it seems to be Israel who is making the most effort to help the peace process. Sharon should have gotten the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts last year. Rabin was assassinated for less.
Meanwhile, the arabs just don't get it. You can't say you are in a "truce" or "cease-fire" and still allow the suicide bombers. I really think that where there is a will, there is a way. The problem is that if the arabs gave up having Israel as a scapegoat and did away with the suicide bomber mindset, they would have to open up their society to a lot of reforms that threaten them.
Arabes hate Israel, more than anything else, because it is a democracy in the midst of a barbaric region.
Jerry Newport
Jerry: Now if Israel could only withdraw the settlers that never should have been there in the first place!! But I hardly expect that to happen.[/quote]
Sjongfrou: Hasn't Israel agreed to withdraw from the Gaza Strip?
Jerry: True, but there are many more settlers in Gaza.
But at least Israel is offering to do something. I don't see the arabs offering to do anything except stim on their hatred of Israel.
BTW for anyone who's interested - Lebanon has withdrawn from Eurovision. There's no pleasing some people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment...362373.stm[/quote]