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Largely based on a special edition of Scientific American "New Look at Human Evolution" (highly recommended as a useful round up of current thoughts on this subject; should be available in your newsagent's till August 25th) I intend to analyse the overview of what exactly is meant by "modern human", as this compendium incorporates both sound research, and some incredibly biased and wrong headed opinions; I hope others will read the whole magasine so we can compare notes?

First post: Wild assumptions!

The perceived wisdom is that Neandertals are extinct, and that "modern" humans emerged from africa less than 200,000 years ago. Apart from the logistical implausibility that the decendants of one mother could have displaced the world's other populations of near humans, in so short a time, the mitochondrial argument, as put forward by two protagonists (one of whom is dead) in "the recent African Gensis of humans" (page 54) clearly applies just as well to the more plausible "the multiregional evolution of humans" (page 46). This is a prime example of how even scientists can latch on to a particular "explanation" without regard to the facts (more on this in a following post).

Is this relevant to the supposed Aspie/Neandertal link? Absolutely, as these articles are riddled with the attitude "I'm a modern human, Neandertals are not; they must therefore be inferior!" (sounds familiar?).

Example: That Neandertals where considered shambling ogres was largely due, in part, to the assumption that one of the earliest skeletal finds (of an individual who later turned out to be arthritic) was typical, and the cold adaptation that they needed to survive what was then a deep arctic environment. Such adaptations are very rapid in evolutionary terms (consider how, in the space of barely 5000 years, Eskimo and other modern arctic dwellers have physically adapted in just this way, i.e., they are generally short and stocky, but have not yet adapted to low levels of sunlight, as their diet is rich in vitamin D, and so they do not need to synthesise it themselves) and this potential can (must?) exist within any "human" population.

We read about squat, robust Neandertals, and tall, gracefull (let's get some compliments in here...) "modern" humans, but look around and what do we see today? Are we all lithe and gracefull? Not much evidence for it is there? According to a minority of scientists, what we are dealing with is a spectrum, whatever the population, and just because those emerging recently from Africa where hot/dry climate adapted, this is in no way evidence of genetic diversity; consider the same diversity which exists in such human populations today, yet no one seems to be claiming that the typical Ethiopian, or Masai, or Watusi is more "evolved" than their european or chinese counterparts!

About the only distinguishing feature of Neandertals that seem real are, the prominent brow ridge (real) and the large noses (soft tissue, and so only speculation) but are these relevant? Admittedly, prominent brow ridges and big noses are rare, but hardly unknown (anybody remember a Russian premier called Gromyko? He was a prime example of a type that where quite prominent in Russian politics, back in the sixties and seventies, such physiologies are by no means unknown!). Besides, both these features can be due to acromegaly (which arises from over secretion of growth hormone; think "André the Giant" of WWW fame). Could high levels of growth homone have also been an adaption to cold (not forgetting that Neandertals were in Europe and western Asia for at least 250,000years!)?

Looked at dispassionately, the likelyhood is that "modern" humans only made a minor contribution to the current genotype, that the multi regionalism model is valid (and in fact necessary to explain current diversity) and that all the contributing proto humans were in fact just variations of a single species, and could therefore interbreed (just as is the case today, however diverse the individual stocks).

Does this have any bearing on the aspie/Neandertal hypothesise. Yes, it indicates that Neandertals probably influenced all of the current population (though there could possible be less influence among the extreme east asians who became Amerinds, particularly those who now populate Tierra del Fuego, or the oldest existing African populations like the Khoisan, for example; it would be interesting if there was any data on AS among such populations.

Intriguingly, this model also has potential to explain the "establishment" types who are over-influential in modern society, but I'll leave it there for now; coming soon, how to wilfully misinterpret the evidence...

Guest

Had a quick look at that (but couldn't be bothered with all the sign-in rigmarole right now) and may have seen it before (there's another such thread on Aspergia) but thank you for contributing!

Any other links to the Neandertal subject also welcome (and the more I read on this theory, the more substance it seems to have; I wish I'd thought of it first!).

Guest

hi, i have earlier been quite interested in Neandertals after reading some stonage novels, in the "earths children" serie there are intermingling between "modern people" and neandertals some of the children get organ defects and so on,    can autism be the result of such "incompatibleness" and asperger more like normal neandertal?



ps english aint my first language

Guest

How not to assess another intelligence (from an article “Who were the Neandertals”, Sci. Amer. sp.edition, August 25th 2004).

“We've got reconstructions of Neandertals as people who couldn't survive a single winter, let alone a quarter of a million years in the worst environments in which humans ever lived”

Imagine an Eskimo existence, without the benefit of holes in the ice, and the bounty of the sea, and you may grasp just how remarkable it is that they survived at all! Sure they had cold adaptations, but would short squat bodies, and a few throw-over rugs have saved them from a climate far colder than Eskimos themselves have to endure, without a sufficient cultural advancement to at least match the clothing manufacturing sophistication, and shelter building skills which modern Eskimo enjoyed? Consider too the scarcity of game and even greater scarcity of edible plant material; could they possible have survived without careful population management, tools and weapons, and high level language skills? Foragers can get by with gestures, grimaces and making noise at each other, but what of small teams of hunters who have to cooperate at a distance, in order to bring down large and dangerous game; could they succeed without advanced planning and precise communication? Unlikely isn't it? So why then:

“One popular theory posits that modern humans held some cognitive advantage over Neandertals, perhaps a capacity for the most human trait of all: symbolic thought, including language... it appears only modern humans performed elaborate burials, expressed themselves through body ornaments, figurines and cave painting...”

So throwing perfectly good tools and other artefacts into the pits with the stiffs is supposed to denote greater intelligence? Consider the hardship adaptations Neandertals had gone through, and the rational and objective outlook this would have instilled where avoidable waste or squandering of energy is concerned. Contrast this with the habits of self indulgence, the profligate fecundity, and abstract irrelevances that “Modern” man, having arisen in a kinder gentler environment, would have more likely acquired.

Is it any accident that Aspies are predominantly atheist or agnostic, or otherwise dabble in non committal pseudo religions, whereas NTs are more preoccupied with whichever religion they were brought up in, and the after-life in general?

Consider how us Aspies are generally considered to lack drive (and let's ignore any thought of obsessions at this time) and are prone to be lazy, and to daydream; the brain uses a lot of energy, but in an Arctic environment which is more sensible, sitting in the hut expending your heat energy into the family home, carefully planning how best to achieve the next big kill, or charging around outside hoping something will turn up?

NTs on the other hand, especially the establishment types, are early birds, getting up with the larks and getting busy busy busy, and of course in an a state of abundance, those who work quickest and most diligently are likely to be the most successful; different traits for different environments, neither of which are currently extant. The early birds too, having fed their families for the day, have little need to preoccupy themselves with tomorrow's hunt and so will turn their thoughts to other ways of passing the time; jewellery, painting, useless but pretty objects to beautify the home? Why not? For Neandertals though wouldn't any spare time have been turned towards devising means of making a very hard life easier? Wouldn't success have gone not to those who could produce wealth based on desirability of an abstract nature, but rather on practical value?

That modern human traits became dominant is entirely an accident of climate; when the last stream emerged from Africa they did so into an environment which maximised their advantage, and minimised the gifts of the Neandertal and similarly cold adapted other pre-humans, and also let them cash in on their rapidly expanding populations. Consider too that when life is easy, some people become largely redundant and so have time for such strange and unproductive activities like climbing social ladders, and directing the efforts of others (and creaming off the profit).

The evidence shows that Neandertals and Moderns co-existed for long periods side by side during early interactions and anthropologists see this as proof they did not interbreed, but look what happens in modern big cities; if there are sufficient numbers of Chinese, Latinos or whatever in a community, the pressure is to interbreed with ones own “kind”, but what happens if a family moves into a community of “others”? The chances are that the sons and daughters will eventually end up in mixed families. During early coexistence in areas like the middle east, the pressure on both communities kept numbers steady, so the Neandertals held their own. Later though when the climate in Europe and elsewhere started to improve, this particular mixed population would have expanded, spreading what was, by then, almost certainly a fairly common culture to the relatively small enclaves of “pure” Neandertals they'd have met in Europe and western Asia, whilst the Moderns would have proliferated according to their nature while the Neandertals would have done so more slowly.

Is it any surprise then the Moderns would have become both predominant and dominant, and eventually swamped Neandertal characteristics to near invisibility? Still we were useful; still we invented the technology they needed, and still, albeit grudgingly we were valued. We are still here, but no longer valued, it seems.

Guest

Alas gywnfryn, you're theory is fatally flawed. The Neanderthals were a little bigger than us according to a recent discovery which would make interbreeding impossible...




:wink:
Gah! Forgot to log in!  :roll:
Actually Brightman, further study has shown that Neanderthals such as the one in the pic were normal sized, but there is additional race of tiny NT's who like to dig up their skeletons  :lol:
NT's do archaeology?!!  :shock:
I can't see, their faces are hidden.

mayaku

Not that it means anything in general,
but I am an diagnosed aspergian, and more than once i have been humourously asked: "Are you neanderthal?"

                             :o






_______________________________

Once I almost "cured" myself,
but now i'm glad to be here.  Big Grin

mayaku

woops, forgot to mention i have a browridge.  :oops:










_______________________________

Once I almost "cured" myself,
but now i'm glad to be here.  :o
Hi mayaku, like your signature, feel free to join if you like.

mayaku

Thanks for stating your hospitality, Amy.
I'm still processing about joining, but please know
the doubt is not by you. (I actually feel welcome here).
I'm kinda new to this, and i need to know for
myself if joining really is a good choice.
You will notice if and when i do.
I feel I need to prepare somehow.

About my signature, not that my life is all perfect now (on the contrary),
But at least i got to know i can make a change, albeit a small one.


_______________________________

Once I almost "cured" myself,
but now i'm glad to be here.  Big Grin
I understand  Smile

Guest

What about H. heidelbergensis? Why can't I be descended from him? I have the robust jaw needed for the diet of pumpernickel and bratwurst on which H. heidelbergensis is thought to have subsisted. I'd look good in wode, honest!  :roll:

Stella Maru
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