The individual is accountable to an extent, but psychosis can remove the ability to make a rational decision. If someone is suffering from paranoid delusions and decides to kill their perceived oppressors/enemies then it is foolish to not put some blame on the psychosis.
I agree with the article someone pasted about not focusing on such people as only mental patients but as criminals, but I disagree with the idea of not giving them treatment. Someone who is clearly a danger due to psychosis should be forced into taking anti-psychotics, and if these are not effective than incarceration inside of a mental hospital which specializes in violent offenders is a very good option.
Criminals can have many motives, mental illness being only one of them.
I do not sympathize with this individual but I do not blame his actions entirely upon free will. His clear psychosis was not of his doing. Though this is more a philosophical issue rather than a legal one. In law, insanity is a valid defense which results in the accused being forced into appropriate treatment rather than being incarcerated in prison.
This case is sadly just one of many recent "aspie killer" cases. I do not hold much hope that the current situation with the media can be reversed though unless everyone gets their act together and DOES SOMETHING. Posting on this forum won't help our cause much.
I believe we need to resurrect the UN campaign in a major and dramatic way, however I can only picture ways which are unrealistic without the support of a few 1000 autistics and NT supporters (the latter is important, parents in particular need to come out and say "our autistic children are not a nightmare"). Organizing such an action without major support is beyond my means as an individual. Getting support from the community on such things has rarely gone beyond the number of about 100 willing to take action in the form of phone calls and emails and for direct physical action in the form of protests getting 5 of us together is an achievement.
You reading this right now (yes, YOU!) need to stop thinking "wow, this is important - i wish i could help but <excuses>" and need to stop thinking others will do something. We also need to get more active individuals who are not just idealistic youth and won't be taken seriously.
With regards to practical issues there are 2:
1 - We are spread out geographically
2 - We each individually perhaps do not have the money to solve problem 1
If one date could be set as the day we gather in one well-known place and MEAN IT then the media will listen. Until then we're a collection of separate voices who can be dismissed while the united voice of autism speaks and the media continue their campaign of vilification. DO NOT LET THEM WIN.
OK. How about this for a non-too-radical idea. Set up a thread about "Autistic menaces in the press". Everytime we see a posting on any well-known website and/or online media outlet we post the description and each of us individually post a well-thought out objective response to this. I have done it several times as an individual.
However if we make a commitment (each of us) to check in every couple of days and respond to each of the articles, it may have an impact.
Instead of the editor or journo saying "Hmmm..had an alleged autistic give me a bit of a serve...haha" they might be saying "Fuck that article we printed has got 200 nasty replies from the community...ummm....maybe we should settle down on this autistic-bashing a bit!"
Just a thought.
I both agree and disagree with your last comment. He was a psychopath. The fact that he was a psychopath who was bullied didn't help things. It made things a lot worse.
I wouldn't expect any of us here (most of whom have been bullied) to go around killing people but then hopefully none of us are paranoid, delusional psychopaths.
However, people often pick on people and this does lead some people to neurotic dispositions - self-abuse, depression, anxiety, etc. A further step from neurosis is psychosis.
I think that any bullies ought to think very carefully about pushing that person a little bit too far to often because who actually knows what is going on in one person's head or what unreasonable things they are capable of.
I am not condoning massacres or extreme voilence any more than I am accepting of bullying.
I think that question may unfotunately fairly academic now. If there are ay of the bullies left alive.
I have come to understand bullies rarely see anything wrong with there actions and think comeupences are completely unjust.
(No I am not saying those that were killed as being a comeupence) I am saying that on the many occassions in the years that I have "got my own back" on a bully, they think they have been mistreated.
I hate bullies!
You are absolutely right.
Learning to verbally spar with someone. Inviting them out the back for a "little talk" away from their friends. Humiliating them in public. Destroying their favoured marijuana crop. Getting them mindlessly drunk at lunch so they have to get sent home from work. THese are methods of getting your own back. Tried and true, and they seem to work with bullies.
Systematically hunting down random targets in a psychotic episode is not.
It was a psychopathic episode. Schitzophrenia and Psychopathy are psychotic disorders. In the same way Depression and anxiety are Neurotic disorders. This psychotic episode was a real result of his psychopathic disorder.
As to whether he deserves sympathy. Some may argue he does. I wouldn't. I think had he have survived the massacre, he should have been put down like the mad dog he was.
Right whatever. You and I will disagree on a good many subjects I'm sure. I think you are dead right. He was a perfectly sane man who had a bit of an off day. I don't actually care too much about Cho. I don't feel that connected to the unfortunate people he killed. I also don't believe my feelings towards this whole incident are worth the amount of posting I have done on this. If you say it is so Bohemian_Storm OK, it is so.
It's ok Batman55 I probably wasn't making myself clear enough. THe crux of it. Cho was a deranged killer. We have seen his photos and recordings. He was crazy. This is mental condition. Does that "get him off the hook"? No. He killed people in a horrible massacre. BS thinks he was completely sane and that the recordings and photos were of a sane and rational human being. OK cool.
You are right Neurosis and Psychosis are entirely different from each other and my attempts of explaining this were flawed. It is ok though because BS set me right and I think the thread is better for the correction.
I am autistic, I was undiagnosed at school with autism (diagnosis wasn't around in 70's). I was still "weird" so I was diagnosed as retarded. I copped a lot of shit at school and at home and I didn't go crazy. Did I get anxious or depressed about being undiagnosed autistic, diagnosed as retarded or getting shit beaten out of me? Yup. I didn't get Psychosis so I don't believe people just are driven to psychosis.
Hope this better explains my point of view. (It was a little late last night/early this morning in Australia when I was posting)
Of course my original point is tat though Cho was Autistic. Autism was not the cause of him massacring people. Anyone agree?
Yes SavedByGod, do not bring Jesus into this. I don't believe Jesus was born from God and blah, blah, blah, I personally believe he was a delusional Jewish man with a lot of Charisma and a big ego. I won't push my opinions on Jesus and God on you though and will leave this right out of the thread, if you could be so kind as to as well.
"This website is for the sick, seeking freedom, is it not?"
Nope. Who is sick and how?
I did warn you not to bring religion into this thread. So let me tell you my "truth" (or as I prefer to call it - my opinion)
A strange little Jewish man was born about 2000 years ago in simpler times in a society of Jewish people oppressed by Romans. They were keen for a revolutionary figure or hero to go up against the Romans. Unfortunately because of the oppressed climate, such figures going against the oppressor in voilent or subversive tactics usually didn't find they had time to build any group of followers to lead in their voilent retaliatory measures because they would be killed by the Romans, before such revolution could bear fruit.
Enter Jesus. Charismatic to be sure (perhaps more so than other such notably charismatic indivuals in history - Gandhi, Malcolm X, David Khoresh, Charles Manson, Hitler) and spouted philosphies which were kindly, passionate, sensible and a little different, but most importantly harmless. Romans weren't even bothered with him. He attracted a lot of people though who saw someone who was fast attracting followers and yet flying under the radar with his non-confrontational speeches. The inevitable happened. Too many followers, regardless of his philosophies - threat. The Romans had him executed. He became a martyr.
Irrespective of his delusional disposition (Son of God...right!) he was a nice bloke and obviously didn't deserve to die, so his guilt-riddled, wine-swilling, passionate followers took up where he left off spreading "the word" and wrote some incredible books of fantastic fablesque stories and fancible pre-era tales. I believe they collated this into a book called the bible.
Out spread Christianity like a virus consuming many old and worn out religion and challenging others.
Why was it popular. My theory (truth or opinion) is that it is a funny kind of religion kinda like a protection racket. Saying "You are a good person you should believe in us. We have nice, wholesome values....of course if you don't you will never get into heaven when you die and you will spend an eternity burning in a hell of nightmare proprtions"
So the Holy Crusades and the slaughters that followed, The witch hunts in Salem and England (where unusual people like us were burnt on stakes), the condoning of beating children with rods (least they be spoilt), forcibly removing children from native populations from their homes into missionaries to teach them about a foreign god, turning a blind eye to child physical and sexual abuse in Christian run boarding schools - by Christian priests (My Father went to one and was fucked up, and became a voilent man towards me for his experiences), The religion that happily turns their back on you if you are an unwed mother, have an abortion, happen to be gay, or are so that depressed that you suicide (straight to hell right?)all sanctioned at one or at the present time by this beautiful religion.
Straight after this horrid massacre some religious bitch said she had talked to the survivors about how their friends (who weren't religious) had gone to hell and to believe in God. The US President happily prays for the dead soldiers whilst committing others to horrible deaths.
So I guess the question is do I want to be "Saved" by your God? Another is when you are told to leave religion out of it nicely, don't you think that is not encouragement to spout more preaching? Hmmm....?
HAHAhHAHAhAHHAHAHAHAhaHHAHAHAHHAhaHAhahahahAHAHA!!!!!
... no, misusing the bible is a serious thing, sorry.
What? You didn't like me forcing my views on Jesus and God on you. No funny that. When I do I am compared to a mass murderer and described as nasty and ill-tempered. When you do (after being told not to) you were doing us a favour? Little inconsistenent? (Do unto others?)
But let's have a nice rational look at what you have said. (By the way thanks for bringing Cho back into the thread, this is what Max originally set it up for - Cho not Jesus).
So I'm like Cho. Great! Being that you must know me rather well to base that opinion, how about explaining who I am and how I am like him. You can start by talking about my location, background, my appearance, my "mental condition" and compare that with Cho. Struggling? Thought so.
"varying degrees of Aspergers or Autism or other mental problems".
Quite a strange reference. ESpecially seeing Asperger's and Autism are not mental illnesses. They are neurological differences. There we go.You are no longer "sick" (the power of Rossco). If you had gone through this site and looked at a few threads and even read the front page you would probably understand this a bit better. Instead you come in preaching at us from the get go, refuse advise to stop it, then flame me when you get preached back at. Not that I take it personally, I am just saying that if you use this wonderful resource you can share, learn and get a lot out of AFF. Do not force your agenda on people. We actually (for the most part) like playing nice.
"blaming others for their sin and their rejection of Christ ("Society made me do it"
I see. My sin I guess is sharing a difference of opinion with you or was it being as forcible as you on a subject I knew would be irritating to you. Who then am I blaming. I choose my own actions. I am solely responsible. I also don't need so Parental-like figure constantly figuring in the equation to do the right thing or I am going to Hell. By and large I do OK.
"If I was wrong in what I believe, you and I will simply fade into oblivion when our days on Earth are over. If you are wrong in what you claim to believe, the outcome for you will be infinitely worse. That is what the spiritual darkness, the prince of this world, Satan wants."
There it comes the reliable threat of damnation. Believe in what I believe in or....
Look thanks for the post I am sure we all found it very entertaining. Just for the record I am one of the first one's here to listen to anyone's concerns or issues and contribute the most of what I am able. I am by and large regarded warmly here. You have got yourself off to a real shit start here mate. If you pull your head in have a bit of a look around the forum, read a few old threads, but most importantly when you are responding use your manners, keep religion out of it and you may actually get a lot more out of it than you are presently getting. I have no problem with you having religion. I have no problem that your take on things is different from mine. What I and others ask is to use manners.
Down the track if I see you doing what you have done here I will jump all over you. If you are here to learn, share and contribute in a polite way, I will encourage you and share. It is really up to you now