Aspies For Freedom

*LOL* glad to help!

We've also been working on his empathy processing time, how to predict the consequences of his actions and to figure out proportional responses/reactions.

For instance, when playing with others he has a hard time understanding how easy it is to hurt someone else, and/or that a younger child can be hurt more easily.  When he does hurt someone, he is more concerned about the justice of the situation - whose fault it was, what he intended to do and what is a fair consequence. So I have been instructing him that the CORRECT response is to FIRST make sure they are okay... to ask if they are okay, find someone to help them, or to make sure they know you care about them.

He is responding well to the instruction, it wasn't that he was choosing not to care about hurting someone, it's just he had other priorities and now he realizes the proper order to place things in - we also meet his other priorities too and listen to him about what he intended to do and respond fairly to the situation rather than to just get him in trouble automatically. (which is what he fears)

On the other hand, he must learn to be aware of what he is doing so that he will not hurt others... and he seems to overreact and to not understand consequences to his actions very well.  For instance, he saw a 2 year old holding a toy shark and pretending to bite him; and his reaction was to hit the shark out of her hand. He did this with a smile, thinking he was playing and not realizing how rough he was being.

When I asked him why he did that, so that I could understand his thought process, he said 'it was a mean shark trying to get me!' - this is a NINE year old... *L*  So I said, yes, but teh shark is being held by a little 2 year old girl who was only playing gentle... maybe you could let her tickle you with the shark and pretend like it's hurting you when it's not instead of trying to defend yourself as if it was a real shark?"

His response to that was to laugh and realize how right I was - and then he played very gentle with her.  But he has done other things often were he hurts someone because he isn't thinking about how what he does will affect someone.

By observing my son and his reaction to my lessons to him, I'm continually convinced that he doesn't need discipline for bad behavior (get in trouble for hurting someone thoughtlessly and not caring - when he's just unaware that would have been a result and didn't know how to respond) as much as a quality instruction as to WHY what he's doing isn't appropriate.

That said, I often remind him when they start getting rough, 'if you hurt your brother on accident, you will still get in trouble, because I need you to be careful and think about what you are doing instead of just be sorry later."  He likes the reminders and he responds to them.

You sound exactly I me when I was younger - and I think the 'hints' you think you're missing have more to do with you misinterpreting the hints. (at least that's what I found I was doing)

Because your wife confirms it, I'm going to venture to guess that it's not that you don't have friends or that people don't like you as much as it is you don't know how to react to the negative hints they give you and you ASSUME it means 'dislike' when it just means 'please adjust your behavior'.

People are funny creatures and I realized about a decade ago that I wasn't giving them enough credit. Because of so much rejection in my life I forgot that I would NEVER judge or be as harsh to others as I assume they were towards me.  And I started to try to think of other people as other versions of me walking around (even though I know we're all different.)

And I came to the conclusion that even when someone is rude or hurts my feelings I would really prefer them to acknowledge what they did and make it better than to just go away and let me hurt. So, if I apply this way that I am, there are two major rules when interacting socially that can be assumed to work with most people.

1)  Everyone wants to know that YOU like THEM (and find them interesting etc.)

So... If we're breaking rule 1 by appearing apathetic, withdrawn, unfriendly iit's not necessarily because they want you to be the life of the party, it's only because people assume we don't like them!  You don't have to change your personality to be liked, you have to find ways to be yourself that still allows other people to know how you feel.  For me, I am not extremely affectionate or demonstrative in hints, I have to SAY things to get the point across.  "You are so cool... you're a great friend... I love your sense of humor... etc."

Or when I first meet someone I just tell them something as simple as, "I suck at small talk..." or "I may seem quiet, but I'm interested in what you're saying..."  or force a smile and a 'hello'.

These simple things can clear up misguided hints they are picking up with us stolid aloof types.  

If in retrospect I see that I hurt someone's feelings by not acknowledging them emotionally or validating them, I can go back and correct any misconception that it meant I didn't like them with a note or call saying, "Sorry I was so quiet and didn't respond to.... I am interested and I felt this way... it's just sometimes it takes me a while to process things."

By employing these simple compansation strategies I have found that people are MORE than willing to forgive me and are very happy that I actually like them, and are very understanding the NEXT time it happens.  Plus, I'm getting better at in the moment expressions when I pick up a hint that my response is hurting someone's feelings I can think faster to say, "oh, I'm sorry... I am listening."

There are always going to be people with their own issues that want more and sometimes more than you can ever give, but MOST people respond well to just knowing you like them, no matter HOW bad you are at hints.

2) Everyone has boundaries they want you to respect

When you really like someone and show it too much or aren't getting the hints that someone wants to be left alone, you can break this rule and make someone feel like you don't respect their boundaries, or that you want too much from them.   Again, it's not that they don't like you, it's that you aren't respecting them and you can fix that quickly by backing off and giving them space.

If it IS that they don't like you, try to think of it as their problem, rather than something you can necessarily fix.  If someone likes you it's almost always more to do with their ability to like someone like you than how likable you actually are.  (However, it is always hard to like someone who doesn't respond to boundary crossing hints.)

For me this is more difficult because when I like someone I tend to get obsessed with being their friend, so I've had to really train myself to hold back and let the people I like to come to me (while still letting them know I'm available and I like them) and/or to just let them go altogether if they don't have time for the kind of friendship I want with them.

Learning to accept whatever someone can give is a HUGE thing, and you will always end up getting a better friendship with them than if you try to manipulate or demand more than they are willing to give.

To go back and 'fix' a crossed broundary where you made someone uncomfortable is tricky... sometimes it's best to just leave it alone and to just try to behave differently, but once in a while it can be important to explain yourself if you feel you have been misinterpreted.

For instance: "Hey, sorry I came on so strong, I can be a bit intense... I didn't mean anything by it, I just find you fascinating and I get really excited when I meet someone who shares this interest... or I sort of don't know how to stop talking when I get on such and such a topic... or I don't meet people like you every day."  And THEN you majorly pull back and show you mean it and that you're learning.

I hope this explanation helps! I know figuring this stuff out really turned my life around and I have a lot of friendships that don't necessarily look like I always expected friendships to look like, but I'm more relaxed and open to whatever comes along now too.

bipolarbear, Thanks! I"m a mom though.   And I have to admit, I've been overwhelmed at times wondering how my son would suffer if he didn't have someone who understood him and could help.   I think about other aspie kids out there who spend so much of their lives hurting and bewildered and it breaks my heart... (probably because that was me as a kid too...)


Max the Bear,  I haven't heard of that, I'll have to look into it! Thanks.

Hmm... I don't know, I'd have to hear more of the situation details to try to understand how your daughter thinks.  

My son has always been about honesty and truth and justice. If things don't seem fair or if he thinks something is untrue he gets extremely affected and sometimes would freak out beyond control.  Thankfully I'm an extremely honest, authentic and to the point person, so it was always natural for me to interact with him.  He also is extremely intelligent and likes detailed explanations - sometimes our conversations at 4 would last for a long time with him just saying 'why?' or 'how?' and unlike my other son who did it just because he wanted to hear you talk *L* my oldest pays attention and wants to understand...

So when he was having trouble with being teased it wasn't that difficult to sit down and tell him that just because someone says something mean it doesn't mean they don't like you - it could mean they LIKE you and they want your attention and to see if they can get a response out of you.  But some people use teasing as a way of testing your reaction and if you respond in a big fit, that will encourage them to do it more...

I basically told him that you can't stop people from teasing you, but if you ask them to please stop and that you don't like it (this works for grandparents and his father) they will know how you feel and will probably stop... and if they don't, just ignore them and don't respond.

Part of his issue was not understanding what the teasing meant, or misiturpeting it to mean they hated him or that they thought those things were true... and the other problem he had was not knowing how to respond to it... in that he felt the need to correct their wrong assumptions about him, or to fight for himself in order to get them to stop.

Once he understood what it meant and had a few different ways he could respond it wasn't as big of a problem when it happened. Not that he isn't still bothered by it... but now he has a place to put it.

Right now we're dealing with larger teasing issues like serious bullying and name calling and I think his experience processing the simple younger age teasing probably gave him some important tools to figure out how to deal with them.  

(For instance when he was 7 he told me he thought taking a dare to do something you aren't supposed to was not as brave as standing up to the bullies daring you to do it!)

Right... NT's don't think literally when they are playing, they think emotionally and often times while sometimes they may exaggerate something they percieve, chances are they don't actually believe what they are teasing you about is true, they are wanting a reaction.  

Those who are teasing for fun often want a mirrored response where you have fun as well and laugh with them or tease them back.  This is how people bond and enjoy each other - kind of like a social ping pong game.  Sometimes it's not teasing, sometimes it silliness, this mirror response happens with flirting too. Someone does something and wants you to do something similar back, when you do, they will respond positively. If you don't they will think you don't like them, and if you do it too much they will think you aren't playing, that you are really aggressively persuing them.

Those who tease out of their own woundedness are trying to make their own pain and emptiness go away or feel twisted empathy by watching the hurt of someone else.  Sometimes people call others names or say mean things because they are stressed out or frustrated and have their priorities out of wack.

Like at a baseball game when they are losing and someone on their team messes up - they take their anger out on the person who isn't playing as well.  

Or if someone is smarter than they are or they think someone isn't as 'cool' they will attempt to make themselves feel smarter and 'cooler' by picking on them. If you show that it hurts or even try to point out to them that they are wrong, or that it isn't nice it'll just encourage them because you are giving them the response they want/need to feel better about themselves.

So either way, if you don't like the kind teasing or mean teasing, ignoring it will make it stop much more than responding in any way.  However, if you can see through the teasing and respond to what that person wants/needs you can make it stop and possibly make a friend or help someone.

If you can respond to a friendly tease with laughter or a mild, friendly tease in response, examine the way the person responds to see if they are enjoying the tease or not to get your 'hint' if you did it right or if they might have thought you were being mean.  Also doing it TOO much can become hurtful.

For a hurtful tease many times bullies are insecure because they have been bullied by parents or siblings and have not had positive reinforcement. Look at them as if they are getting their self-esteem the only way they know how, by making themselves feel better by your negative response.  And don't give it to them...

If you want to experiment and the 'bully' seems to be pretty harmlessly insecure, try saying something complimentary later on to this person about something else that is legitimate that you admire (If you can observe something). It might be just the boost in self-esteem he/she needs to see you as an ally instead of a target.

In some cases where a bully is really a bother, sometimes the only way to get it to stop is to stand up to it and make the bully feel worse about himself... and he may avoid teasing you to avoid the bad feelings.

However, I personally would avoid this if possible, because you never know when it will esculate and that would just be worse.

Oh... and I'm glad my posting is helping. Forgot to say that...

Sarajoke, cool! So glad I could help. I'm married now so it's not really an issue, but I sure wish someone would have told me this stuff 15 years ago!! Though - I'm more happy with my husband, so maybe it's just as well. *L*

I'm nowhere near an expert, I've just figured a few general things out based on failures, discussions and observations. *L*  Meaning I can describe it, but that doesn't mean I:

1) always recognize it when it's happening  

2) would know how to respond

That said... I'll do my best to explain it.

***********************

NT's AREN'T ALL KNOWING EITHER

NT's don't always consciously realize or intend to flirt; meaning they don't all do it on purpose with strategy. It's not like everytime they flirt they have sat down and thought out: 'I like this person, I'm going to flirt with him/her by doing such and such.'  

SOME are hunters and will do that though... but most aren't.

Aspies like to analyze things and make a decision about how to act - an NT doesn't generally need to analyze things as much, they just 'feel' their way through. They experience an emotion of sexual or romantic attraction and they just naturally express that emotion in a way that is supposed to encourage mirroring.

THE PURPOSE OF FLIRTING

It's important to note that while all flirting may have with it an intention of mutual 'play' not all flirting has with it an intention of romantic relationship or sexual encounter.  

A. Some people want to flirt for the fun of flirting but would never take that next step with every person they flirt with. (and if you act on their flirting beyond their level of flirting they will back off/freak out)

CAUTION: There are some people who flirt just because they like you and that is how they naturally express it. THEY wouldn't consider it 'flirting' because they have no intention, but that doesn't mean the behavior isn't flirtatious - it means the person doesn't have intention.  

Just like Aspies, some NT's will be flirtatious without intention... it doesn't mean they mean to flirt, it means they aren't aware they are expressing flirtatious behavior....

B. Some people flirt to express interest in seeing if they are interested. If you respond correctly and keep their interest, they will continue to flirt and might act on it, but there's no guarentee they will because even they don't know yet what they want.  

C. Some people wait until they know they are interested before they'll start flirting.

And yes, be it A, B. or C, they will expect you to read their minds.  

FLIRTATIOUS BEHAVIOR

Some indications of flirting: Prolonged eye contact and smiling. Comments which are said in a friendly AND teasing nature.  They can be compliments or insults, it depends on the tone and facial expression, not the content.  Sometimes a flirtatious compliment will not be a tease, but have with it some sort of inuendo. Sometimes people will touch your arms, hands, shoulders, back...

In other words, you can't just look at what the behavoir is, you have to try to figure out what the individual's intentions are...  

BEYOND FLIRTING

Flirting that can also have a romantic relationship interest: Prolonged attention/interest to what you say and trying to arrange a way of being near you.

Flirting that can also have a sexual encounter interest: Looking at erogenous parts of your body, consistant stepping over your personal boundaries, sexual inuendos and in some cases hints such as telling you when their Significant Other (SO) is going to be out of town.

Note: Sometimes it's a mixture and the person might not be aware they are giving off these hints to you!!  Just because they are NT and expressive doesn't always mean they know what they are doing.

*************

If I can get to it I'll try to write up some tips on HOW TO HANDLE FLIRTING... right now I'm running out of time.  But I will say this - don't make it into a bigger deal than it is.  If someone likes you or not is really nothing to freak out about, just try to enjoy it like a mystery and try to pick up on the hints in a friendly way, and maybe even send a few of your own out there and see if there's a response.

I think it is much more 'comfortable' to have someone come out and say "I like you, we should date" - BUT if you can figure out a way to cope with a little bit of the 'unknown' without worrying the world will end if you get it wrong, you can actually prolong the enjoyment of the courtship/wooing OR the development of the friendship, whichever it turns out to be.

Freaking out is the one way to ensure things won't work.

Ex-girlfriends are a completely different story - if she hurt you or if it was messy or if you are seriously not interested, I would just ask her point blank what her intentions are. She owes you that.

If it was an aimiable mutual break up and you still care for her, it might be worth it to take her up on one of these outings and see how it goes... If it's too weird then you can ask her.

I have considered it, actually. I'm writing a novel at the moment which includes some of these concepts, but I may some day try to put together my thoughts on practical matters as well. Thanks for the suggestion.

Every relationship takes getting used to - I imagine Aspies who aren't into change take longer to adjust... my husband took a LONG time getting used to my need for space and it took me a while to figure out how to communicate it to him without being annoyed with him or hurting his feelings.  Now that he understands my personal boundaries and doesn't take it personally, and I understand how he needs to feel loved, we do better.

Not that we have it down now, but because we know we are so different and have different needs at least we have a basis of understanding...  MOST fights happen because someone doesn't feel loved or someone's boundaries/toes are getting stepped on.  The rest of life is easy to work out- especialy if you ahve the same values.

We've been married for 12 years and it wasn't until the last 5-6 that things really started to be better.   Part of the communicating is in how you do it and part of it is in how he recieves it.  Using a kind tone goes a long way, and when I'm edgy it's REALLY hard to remember that, but I'm training myself... and then adding some reassuring honest/practical words like "I love you, but I've had such a stressful day and need some down time."

I had the chance to listen to myself with a bad tone once when our phone message  recorded me talking to my husband. I was appaulled at how nasty I can sound when I'm irritated.   It really helped me 'hear' myself and gave me motivation to want to change. Before that I was just feeling how I felt and not hearing how I sounded to him. I'm still not perfect at it, but I have a working desire to change, which makes all the difference (to him too... knowing that I'm trying is an emotional validation to him that I love him and care about his feelings even if I lack skills)

Just last night after a full day of chaparoning and baseball with my boys and their friends, I basically had a melt down when my husband was trying to get me to help him plan out the rest of the week with him. I just said, "I really, really can't do this right now... it's too much, I'm overloaded."  He backed off and put the kids to bed...   We still haven't worked out our week, but it's better to put it off than to yell about it! *L*

Kind of like my other saying, "A messy house is better than an angry house."  And "Being late is better than being angry."

I'm a much more happy person when I have these priorities in order.

The affection/sex thing are always touchy because most sexual people feel validated and loved through the recipication of their initiations. Again this is part in how you do it and how he recieves it... kind of like I said above, training your 'tone of voice' is important.  

The other very important part in his ability to recieve you in a way that doesn't hurt his feelings is if he knows and trusts that you are sincere when you say 'later please' - I know if my husband has to go for too long without the reassurance of my affection/sexual intimacy he feels more and more dejected.  Since I realized I'm 'asexual' and never going to be 'in the mood' the way he is, I have practiced making it a decision to have sex as often as I can.   He understands that I'm not spontaneous and don't have sexual arousal like he does, but he ALSO understands based on experience with me that I love him and WILL initiate sex a couple times a week so if I say 'not now' it's not that I don't want him, it's that really, now is not a good time.

Before I had that revelation about my asexuality, affection was really difficult too because I knew that to my husband affection used to equal foreplay. And that put pressure on me that I didn't want, so in my fear I'd naturally withhold affection because I knew it would lead to him wanting more.

After talking it through and explaining that sometimes I want JUST affection and need to know that when he is being affectionate there aren't always intentions there he's actually had his own paradigm shift and is very cool with just affection.  For him it was just a natural progression of intimacy to go from affection to foreplay to sex, but he now gets why that progression is stressful for me and I need to know from the beginning if sex is going to be part of the interaction.

It's kind of interesting because now that we understand how my brain/emotions work in comparison to his, without my fears we are actually much more affectionate with each other and with my understanding of his needs, we have sex more often! So we both win.

It also helps that the kids are 5 and 9 - I think when you have anyone below the age of 4 living in your house with you, your entire life is more stressful.

Believe it or not, but Aspies make excellent friends for NT's - they are honest and sincere and don't pretend to care if they don't. Aspies are also often great listeners and very practical and insightful. NT shoulders to cry on can turn on you and make you feel like they care when they are use your confessions against you later, or gossip about it or just mirror your feelings and get you even more riled up. (imagine the difference between the NT conspiring with hatred against someone as opposed to the calm voice of Aspie reason about facts) Sometimes people just need someone to care about their feelings, sometimes they really want someone who will be straight and blunt with them.

Also, she may be sincere about you being a good friend because many people will also see intimacy and closeness as the TYPE of conversations you have and not the quantity of time and frequency you spend with them.

As for her 'playing' you, I don't know... maybe. From her stand point you might not be 'hurtable' because you aren't as affected as she is... meaning you don't appear to have the deep emotions that she feels.  She might be mean, I don't know - but it's possible she's just self-centered and/or clueless.

Bottom line, you don't have to be her friend if you don't want to if you aren't getting anything out of it.  But if you can just take what she gives and give what you want to without feeling obligated to her, I don't know if you need to 'cut her off'.

I have a few friends like this, men and women who I wouldn't expect to be there for me when I need them.   I keep a sober realization about that and I am honest if I don't have the time to 'counsel' them when they are asking for it... so I don't necessarily feel used.

It might very well be because I have a family and other really good friends who are there for me when I need them and I sincerely care for these people and want to be there for them when it's possible...

However, I can totally see how being a shoulder to cry on is not fun if you are lonely and want a relationship and this is the only thing anyone is offering you.  

BUT it's not necessarily a terrible thing if you understand the boundaries of the relationship and she doesn't keep changing them on you to suit herself.

ah... age could be a lot of it.  She isn't thinking about how you are feeling towards her, she's thinking about how she feels about you and how you make her feel.  So 'good friends' to her means - she trusts you and likes you and feels like she can open up to you.  It might take a few more years for her to catch on that it's supposed to be mutual.

I wouldn't always assume that other people are 'out to get you' - while some may be, I tend to think most people are just clueless.   Either way, I think you're right to move on and away from a romance with this gal..

Is three days a really long time to not talk to someone? What did she 'pull' exactly?

At this point I'm not convinced she's menevolant, but it is possible for people to mess with your mind just by being flakey and quirky... if you can't handle it, just tell her you need to move on.

If you have the time and energy and want to try to figure out how to handle people like her you could try to be honest with her... again.  If she doesn't seem to be putting any effort into trying to be clear about her intentions than it might just be a waste of your time. But if she tries at all she could be just a slow learner.

Without being you, I don't know what you should do or say... you have to evaluate how you feel and how much you are willing to put up with vs. the potentials to learn from/have a friendship with this person.

For instance, I have some people in my life that drive me nuts just because they don't understand boundaries or my boundaries are super sensitive or something. I could be mean and blow them off, but I look at interacting with them as a learning tool - learning patience, compassion, understanding and how to set up boundaries.   Those 'tools' carry over into relationships with other people who aren't as difficult for me, but who sometimes could use some patience and compassion that doesn't come naturally to me.

I'm not irked at all. Maybe all those 'patience training' exercises worked. *LOL*

Maybe she backed off for 3 days because she thought that's what you wanted or was giving you some space because she thought you misunderstood her intentions?  Maybe she thinks you're screwing with her?

I don't know - I tend to try to have an optimistic view of other people's intentions when I can... but again, if you can't handle interacting with her, you don't have to. But I would suggest not telling her to stop acting like a child, because if she is, she will only take that as proving that you deserve to be messed with for calling her names, and if she isn't screwing with you, she could be hurt needlessly.

The latest thing I'm trying to teach him is what is appropriate to talk about, when and how.  He has just started to really understand the concept of earning money for things he wants and so his mind is very wrapped around how much something costs, how much money people make and who has to pay.

I understand where his mind is, but it does come across as rude and so we're steering him towards asking us quietly if he simply MUST know which adult is paying for the meal and why and how much tip and what not...

Meanwhile, another aspie friend of me turned me on to Scott Meyers' strip "Basic Instructions' and I have found almost all of them hilarious and many are perfect for aspies.

This one I showed to my son, reading him the instructions (with my mommy editor on):



Several of his photos have come out like the top left hand corner and we are always trying to get him to smile naturally. So, after I read this to him I said, "try it" and he gave me the wide eyed smile and then I saw his face working at it and suddenly he gave me a genuine beautiful smile.

When I said, "great!" he explained, "I was thinking about that time when you told me that you fixed my carcar for me."

So... we'll see how this year's school photo will turn out. *L*

Thanks! I didn't think to check to see if it worked... I tried to post an image, not a link. Here's the link to the comic I was talking about!

CLICK HERE TO SMILE