Aspies For Freedom

Hey fellas tell me if you have found this. My ex-wife and I who are on civil term (for the children), and after today that will propbably change for the worse, has a tendency to minimise any wrong or plausible wrong on her part and attribute it to me because of my autism. Not just the whole marriage breakdown thing (which was 5 years ago) but any arguement.
When we argue I naturally defend myself very rationally and logically. She throws across emotional stonewalls which I logically crush. In the end she justifies her actions saying that I am autistic and don't comprehend the situation. Which is a cop-out of the highest order. I feel like screaming look just explain your side rationally and logically and debate it. maybe we can learn something. Don't raise your voice, insult me, bring up tangental or irrelevant subject matter. Here is the problem lets dissect it find a common cause and solve or irradicate it. No it appears I am unreasonable and I believe her feelings don't matter and at the end of the day my thought processes are akin to either intellectual retardation (which is difficult to imagine with an IQ of 141) or mental illness.
She had at times say that I don't "fight fair" because she didn't have the stregnth of logical/rational thinking that I did and that I made her arguements look worthless. I'm sorry but if her reasons are sound wouldn't they naturally stand their ground? Irrespective I did and to a lesser extent even now, try to accomadate and compromise a little. I just hate how she has a ready hurtful escape from any arguement - ie your autistic so I win the arguement and you a naturally wrong.

Unfortunately, when somebody is spoiling for a fight, the last thing they want to hear is logic. I'm just as guilty of that failing as a lot of other people.

If you are divorced, don't talk to her anymore. Neither of you will ever change, you are both very different, so don't expect anything of each other.

Communicate by letter if its really essential.

Thanks Amy. Were it so simple! We have two children. A nine year old autistic boy and a six year NT daughter. THey live with her in the suburb next to me. I have to interact with her. Thankfully I reduce this to (bare) limited civil conversations. Still even this is tough.

If you have regular contact arrangements then there are only rare times you need to talk:
Change of plans (should not happen without a very good reason - i.e you are unable to have the children with you due to illness, or she is unable to)
Emergencies

Anything else can be organised by letter.

Arguments are not about (just) logic.  They are about feelings as much as anything, at least for a lot of women... and some men.  My husband can logically rationalize circles around me and I can emotionally overreact circles around him, depending on the argument.  (we are both unofficial aspie btw).

And yeah, I agree with those who say minimize conversation w/ ex.

Well, it is a lot alike with NT men and women. Women usually do argue different from men. They take (generalized) things more emotionally and men usually are to do the rational part. BUT even being rational does not mean that the arguements really hit the point (sometimes they only sound as if they do and if your opponent isn't able to verbalize his/her arguments the same way than you, he/she's bad off).

Often the problem isn't a ratio problem, but a emotional one, so rational arguments just don't count and using them might indeed be or seem unfair to the opponent.

If you have to argue and can't do it by mail/email (and even then), try to start your argumentation with "I feel the situation is this or that; I think the point is... what do you think/feel?" This might take some of the sting from the discussion and your ex will hopefully feel that you take her point into account (and I hope, you really do, for being the mother of the kids she probably has valid concerns about them).

Discussions are not to be made to win or lose them, they should be held to solve a problem, not to make points against each other. If you have to come to a conclusion/agreement, both of you should be the same dissatisfied.

Besides of being autistic, you are a feeling human, try to make that clear to your ex - she might really think that you are only ratio because of you trying to keep your feelings out of the discussion.

And for myself, I found that I sometimes find rational arguements for what I feel it's right. My ex always despaired because of my looks-like ratio argumentation for my feeling-rights. (I'm Aspie, he's probably not, his brother might have some traits)

Hope, this makes at least a little bit sence - I never tried to explain this behavior in English.

Sibylle

Guys thanks for the input. I guess I am not very good with feelings. This is one of my ex's main reasons for the breakdown in our marriage. She believes my percieved emotional distance is un-natural and shows a lack of caring and self-absortion of my part. She reckons it was like talking to Dr Spock sometimes.
I don't look at arguements as an opportunity to score points or hurt someone else. I guess I have always viewed problems of any description as opportunities to logically and rationally solve or find the core of the problem and to look for best probable solution. I think whilst I DO feel, I can't express my feelings at all well. I don't know if that makes any sense.
In arguments with anyone they generally find themselves coming away from the discusssion feeling anger that they couldn't logically support what they were saying and believing I don't care or am putting them down. I come away thinking "Why couldn't they give me somethink constructive so we could work on a well thought out solution to a problem? Why did they call me that name? Why did they shout at me? I didn't do either of those things to them. It wasn't neccessary - surely!" If I tried to argue emotionally I would be at a loss how to do it. The mere thought of it makes me feel awkward and uncomfortable.
Please don't think I am promoting my style of trying to deal with things as right or best. I know I am socially awkward. I don't try to win arguements just solve and try to keep out emotionally-charged words which might hurt unintentionally. Oh well at 35 I think I'm too old to change and certainly to have ever salvaged the marriage. Just thought maybe others might have had similar problems and small tidbits to help reduce this problem.
Thanks again everyone for advice. It does mean a lot that you listen.

Arguments made from emotion are never a good idea. If you cannot discuss an issue rationally then you cannot resolve it. Feelings are important, but if they cloud judgement then this will cause further problems.

Dealing with a problem rationally isn't childish or an attempt to "score points". Screaming and shouting without any rationality is more childish than anything. Do not put yourself down for your sense of logic.

NT/aspie relationships often fail for the same reason you are describing here - the NT partner perceives the aspie partner as cold and uncaring.

I hear what your saying Asira. Yes I know the way I deal with arguments can be hurtful to the other party. It is funny (not in an amusing way) once my ex asked after a heated argument, where she was getting verbally abusive/insulting and loud she noticed I was silent, blank-faced and frowning thoughtfully and intently, "what is going on in there? It's impossible to tell. you give me no emotion to read?" I replied calmly. "Oh I was just mentally recording all those horrible things you just said to remind you at a later date and trying to think of ways to prove you wrong or make you pay for being nasty to me". She was really upset by this and I even now can't understand why. If you are nasty to someone you are almost giving permission for them to do or say something nasty back. It is like hitting someone. You don't hit someone then expect they won't or shouldn't hit you back. They might choose not to but you by your actions say I think it's ok for us to do this to each other. Now I may pay her back or I may not. It may be now or may be later. It may be in a way she thinks is fair enough or may not be. One thing that doesn't happen is it doesn't get forgotten about ever. NT's seem to have a "gift of being able to forget, get over, laugh off or move on from stuff (personally I think it is a admirable and excellent trait to have) but autistics I have spoken to have a much harder time in doing this. So as horrible as the statement of mine sounded at least it was honest (and even natural). My ex also said of me once "sometimes it is not even worth "bringing stuff up" because you will remember every detail and bring it up months from now for no good reason and I won't even remember the event. It is like knowing that I will have a bomb over my head and no matter how well things go between us it could land at anytime and cause more damage than I could have ever done from the initial discusssion". I agreed with her. She got angry and once more I got confused. Oh well.

I don't forget either and get very annoyed with people telling me just to move on or forget it or whatever. For some reason I have this combination of very logical mind with very easily upset emotions.

On paper, I can be very logical and analytical but in person, even another person raising their voice and/or being critical and sarcastic/belittling is enough to make me run and probably never see them again (unless they either say they're sorry at some later date or I get further information that makes me understand it's not my fault they reacted like that).

I'd also agree with the advice of the others not to talk to your ex any more than you have to. It seems as if there are too many ill feelings simmering under the surface for there to be anything more than outer civility at present. Perhaps the situation will alter after some time though.

I am not sure what you mean? Do you mean I will think other women are my ex? Do you mean I will think other women look like my ex?Do you mean I will look for another woman who looks like her?

I'm sorry I probably sound *** I'm not sure what you mean.

Asira, I definitely think so.

More with social situations. If something goes bad in a particular situation, I will avoid similar situations in the future.

Sorry yes I get you now. I agree with tenacious. I have always learnt things by rote and find it hard to account for "x" factors. Therefore if a bad thing happens for some reason I tend to remove all the factors I can to make it work better next time. A house mate of mine asked me if I could drive him to the shops. On the way back we had a fight in the car. I told him afterwards I would never drive him again. Months later when we were getting on really well he asked to be driven somewhere. I said "No". I told him if I don't drive him there is virtually no chance of us ever having a fight in a car again. He is a good mate and whilst he didn't agree and quite often doesn't get me, he respects me and my weird decisions notheless.
About other girlfriends. No that's not happening. I tried it and it didn't work very well. I have been single and celibate for 5 years. It is too hard to court/date and then manage a relationship. I must have been difficult to live with too.