Aspies For Freedom

Of course it would be taken out of context, so everybody outside the forum would think that the members act like this every time.  :?

Yes, it is. I forgot to mention that. You're right, sorry.

I think not the sort of person (Aspie, Autistic, NT, etc.) I would like to be associated with, too, in any case.

aspergers doesn't get too much national press, but this is not the way I would like it to be portrayed.

Now closed minded people who have read that will assume that all aspies have murder in mind, much in the same way that some people think that all muslims are terrorists, which they are obviously not.
I also dislike how some newspapers have described aspies, one stated that we are "unable to respond or cope with everyday things" which I know I can. Such generalisations I feel, are unfair.

Yeah it doesn't seem very aspie-ish to me either.

What I can't see is why somebody would care enough working in a McDonalds to kill someone if they are going to get you sacked. If you didn't like the person I'm sure you could get a job in another one, there is probably another McDonalds just around the corner.

I was going to say that you can't get sacked for having aspergers, but he didn't find out that he "had it" till afterwards.

OK, I tried my best, but if you try to train the dog over and over again and it still dosent listen, then it's hopeless, as the case with noctivagus.  I am finished wasting my time with him.

As for what he said about me, whatever you do noc as with posting up nasty pictures, never, ever post up pictures of your wife, I can just imagine how nasty she is by looking at you.  I can see it looking something like this - http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/anthropol...606bta.jpg

and if your children are like you, homeschool them, they wouldnt last a day in a NT high school without getting their asses kicked.


This is the last post I have in this topic

Listen, I was/am bullied and harrased. Why we can't just call bullying what it is: plain and simple ABUSE is beyond me but that's btp. I partly forced, partly encouraged myself to have an obessive phase with legalistion. Long story short, instead of carrying weapon around, I now never go anywhere without keys or deordant or something like that. Legally, you're allowed to defend yourself with some everyday item like that.

I was a witness at that killing in Chichester McDonald's.

Does that affect people's comments on this forum? It's not good to kill someone, we know, whatever our condition - right?

Terrible. It never leaves you.

I was most concerned to read Jason_6404's views. He seems very angry. I hope he's ok. In truth, the media were pretty accurate about  this case, simply describing what was said in court. While the offender is being treated, the family are still trying to shoulder the grief and irreparable burden of it all. They continue to suffer when 'treatment' for them is probably not possible.

Finding your forum made me think much harder about Asperger Syndrome after the court case re: killing at McDonalds.

I wonder if a few of you would submit contributions to the 'knife crime' blog I have set up which I'd like to use to help make an informed contribution about the use of knives in society - and to interested groups like your own.

Blog url: http://knifecrime.blogspot.com/


Thanking you...

After reading through this thread, a few things come to mind.

First of all - without wanting to sound like I back his comments - Jason had a good point about bullying. Now I am not for one second backing the idea of physical violence, because as others observed it only multiples the problem - not resolve it. But the feelings of violence being the only way is something I can actually relate to. I want to point out that I have never sunk to that level because it scares me - I know that doing that (even as self defence) is wrong. But just think about this. What if all other avenues are exhausted? What do you do?

Aspies need closure on issues. That's my experience, and the experience of other Aspies I know. Life experience is just so much more important for us than any NT you care to name - because we rely on it to overcome our social instinct restrictions.

Looking at this murder - I think the AS diagnosis may be correct. Of course it can't be the sole problem, as it would certainly appear as though there were other issues as well. The worry I have here is that the root problem is Aspergers (from birth) - and it went untreated and undiagnosed. The result was a poor education in social skills (which in part contributes to the bullying) and potentially a warped sense of right and wrong.

I look on the parents of the murderer with something resembling disgust. They didn't know there was something amiss with their son? I find that hard to believe - unless they were neglectful and didn't really pay enough attention to him. That's downright dangerous, and frankly I would hold them partly culpable for allowing their son to even be capable of committing this crime.

My take on the cause being claimed for the stabbing. For one thing, I would NEVER allow an Aspie to do customer service - anywhere let alone at McDonalds. It's too ad-hoc. He was bound to lose his job sooner or later, because his social skills wouldn't have been up to it. But he didn't know that - and when accused of bad behaviour towards a customer he felt that was a flagrant lie because he didn't see that he'd done something wrong. The result was an over reaction - a big one. All because he wasn't properly looked after from the get go.

This is where I'm concerned. Particularly with the media and the way us Aspies are being portrayed. This is another example of being misunderstood. And not being properly looked after. I have major issues with governments who don't do enough to protect children (the state government of New South Wales in Australia has a bad reputation for this) and this is an example of parents being neglectful. It's cost an innocent woman her life. I think the media should look at this properly - and I happen to think the murderer should appeal the sentence. But I can't see that happening unless he acknowledges he did the wrong thing. And whether or not that happens is not something I can say with any confidence. He may be too far gone.

Just a minute, Gareth. Let me explain why the sentence should be appealled in my view first.

You are (understandably) trying to mask AS from being partly to blame for this incident. Now if he knew he had AS and was able to deal with it's pitfalls - then I would agree with you. But he didn't. He had no idea. Now the behaviour that resulted that you are describing as sociopathy (which I don't 100 percent disagree with) would be better described as uncontrolled. From the description, it was a frenzied attack - from the gut. It wasn't planned or anything (which is 100 percent sociopathy as I understand it). Now the fact that his sense of right and wrong was warped goes back (in my opinion) to undiagnosed AS. His social skills were out of whack - which no doubt contributed to his job loss. Out of whack social skills is definitely an AS trait.

My point is that they are treating this murder as cold, callous and premeditated. Now one could put a decent argument for the first two, but frenzied does not equal premeditated. I'm not saying he should get off scot free (heck no!) but jail for life when I don't think he REALLY knew what he was doing (he might say so but that's coming from a warped mind that needs help - not punishment) is too much. He saw it - incorrectly - as righting a wrong. I would say, make sure he gets the treatement he needs. If he doesn't respond - then (and only then) put him in jail and throw away the key.

I'll give you an example of someone who didn't respond to treatment - and still doesn't to this day. The Port Arthur massacre perpetrator, Martin Bryant. OK - there's no AS diagnosis with him, but then he hasn't been formally diagnosed with anything because of his lack of co-operation. So we don't know. I personally think there is AS in him - for similar reasons to this guy. Along with the sociopathy trait - which is probably stronger in Bryant because his attack WAS premeditated.

I hope that clarified things in that regard.

Now I'm mystified at your other comment. I for one stay away from customer service jobs. Couldn't handle it in a blue fit - because it lacks structure. I've seen other Aspies similarly inclined. It's all about the lack of structure. Whilst we can handle a little (we're not completely rigid like full blown Autistics) a place like McDonalds would present all the worst ad-hoc situations where the Aspie has to bow to every whim of the customer. You can't structure that. I find it hard to believe any Aspie could handle that for any length of time. I know I couldn't.

True. I just worry that some Aspies don't know what they're getting themselves into with jobs like this. Hence the reflection I made. OK - maybe it was a nasty generalisation (I'll take that) but when one has been through what I've been through in the work place (and that wasn't even customer service) the odd bias pops out.

Oh of course. Like I said, I wasn't suggesting that he get off scot free. I just wonder when he made the statement. Was he still angry in the heat of the moment? I'm not saying that as an excuse - just making that point. There are a number of questions that haven't been answered for me - that's why I'm baulking at the idea of life for him and no release.

Gareth, I can tell you that in Australia just recently the government put the pump under people who wouldn't take jobs if they just didn't want them. I'm not saying this applies to diagnosed Aspies (they're on a pension as I am and aren't under the same pressure), but it does apply to the undiagnosed ones. That really concerns me.

I'm not making this observation as an excuse, but what if it appears as though there is no other way and all else has failed? Or you're backed into a psychological corner? The latter has happened to me and I lashed out. No, not with a knife (I won't argue that - it's an over reaction, no doubt) but with an open hand. Even now there are people I am VERY angry with and I am having big problems getting them punished in the correct manner. Just putting that into perspective.

If he said that once he calmed down. If he said it in the heat of the moment that's actually a false confession. And besides, he may also have said it believing there was no other way (and there is). Now if he can be re-educated in that regard - and no one here can say whether he can be or not - why lock him up for life? See what I mean?

That's an example of some unanswered questions in all this.

Sounds more like he lacks second logic to me.

Second logic is what I call that last minute thought that keeps you from doing something you'll regret. That second logic also causes regret.

There are hundreds of people out there that I just want to kill, and kill and kill and kill and keep killing untill I'm done killing. My second logic says that I can't kill a vertebrate. (Only things I have ever killed were insects and worms, invertebrates) Since I normally act on my second logic since it is easier to trust and seems more truthful, I don't.

And I am Aspergian.

Some person says that Aspergians can't commit suicide because their logic keeps them from it.

If so, Aspergians, like NTs, do in fact, have second logic. This guy doesn't. He was poorly diagnosed.

~*~

In any case, he should be closely monitored, no matter how stupid his diagnosis is. He's a murderer. Murderers are to be monitored, whether they're Aspergian or NT or ADHD.

That's true, but without the diagnosis - an employer would expect flexibility (they actually expect it anyway otherwise they won't hire the person) which means doing both as a matter of necessity. Especially during busy periods.

I agree. The trouble is - and this has a precedent in Australia - Aspergers is not recognised in all it's glory from the point of view of a point of prosecution of a discrimination charge. For example, a charge of harassment that I lodged against a former employer was thrown out as frivilous. That is - I was complaining about nothing (which was a judgment on my perception of what actually happened, and a bad one at that). That's what I mean about a lack of legal options. I'm not saying you're wrong.

There is also the issue of having such people around unavoidably - like when an Aspie is pursuing a special interest for example.

Which is pretty much what I said - or meant - to start with.

Meiloyn, your reflection on what you have called "second logic" interests me. That's because I look on that scenario as instinctive rather than logical as such. It is something that can be learned and it isn't social so it's not something that is a potential failing of Asperger's. It's more a teaching of the basic difference between right and wrong. Having said that, there is an exception to every rule.

And on that, the mention of suicide reminds me of an instance in the last couple of days of an Aspie trying to commit suicide. And it does appear that the trigger was somewhat trivial although having said that it may appear understandable (see Room 101 for where the action was).