08-29-2006, 01:08 PM
09-11-2006, 07:56 AM
What a pity! 
Being not here on a regular basis I missed the thread. And it really sounded as if Berit was a parent that cared. It would have been a gain for this forum if this type of people stood here instead of feeling unwelcome.
Sibylle
Being not here on a regular basis I missed the thread. And it really sounded as if Berit was a parent that cared. It would have been a gain for this forum if this type of people stood here instead of feeling unwelcome.Sibylle
09-14-2006, 04:01 PM
Louise18 Wrote:
Parenting might be difficult to do, but its pretty important to avoid mistakes, and that won't happen without a critical approach at what is already going on.
May I correct this: "Parenting might be difficult to do, but its pretty important to try to avoid mistakes, and that won't happen without a critical approach at what is already going on."
The only thing you can expect from a parent is to do his/her best, which includes to listen to the opinion of other people, consider their arguments and decide on his/her own convictions.
In most cases both ways have advantages and disadvantages and as a parent you simply have to try to find the way with the least disadvantages for all of the involved. I really do not only take into account what's best for my aspie son when making decisions, I have to take my own needs and wishes into account (becaus only a happy/content and rested parent is a good parent), I have to take the needs and wishes of siblings into account and the needs of the environment.
When I was younger I always was so secure about what I would do if I was in someone elses shoes :? Now that I'm adult and have kids on my own, everything is different and I even can understand the mistakes my parents made and forgive them - for they did them with the best intentions. I know there are a lot of things I probably will do wrong and I know that my kids won't suffer lifelong because of being sent to bed too early/too late for a while, getting too little sweets, having to do homework for more than the recommended hour or things like that. And one thing I really learned as the single parenting mother of an AS and a NT child is, that noone really knows how it is to "walk someone elses shoes" and that we should consider that every time we pass a judgement on someone else. I've been judged too often myself - by the way my son behaves and my social situation, by the lack of facial expression and a lot of other things i do not the way all the other ppl do...
Parenting is not only finding out what the childs will would be if it had all the neccessary facts at hand and the sense to use them! Parenting is also teaching one's own culture to one's offspring.
Telling people off because they do not make the decisions we would prefer or want them to, is very ignorant, I think - as long as the decisions are within a range of realistic options.
What we indeed can do, is make propositions, give the insight into our own feelings and give as much facts as we can - to help people (or children) to make their own decisions on as much information as possible.
And maybe I'd judge this post complete nonsense in 10 or 20 years from now... :wink:
Sibylle
09-16-2006, 02:58 PM
Louise18 Wrote:
My mother thinks I am a spoiled brat and that I tantrum to control everything.
Have you ever considered, your mom might have reasons for that point of view? (I'm not saying, she is right, but maybe she only gets to know sides of you, that are suggestive of that point of view?) It might be there is a lot of misunderstanding between both of you?
Louise18 Wrote:
Trying your best is no good if your best is not good enough. You should have made that judgement about yourself BEFORE you got pregnant.
As DW's mom already said, one never knows in advance if one's going to be a good parent or not. And hey, a lot of people really do say, that I make my parenting good, even being in a difficult situation (and I know noone who would want to change places with me, even if I sometimes wish to have an easier life).
Louise18 Wrote:
And as for putting yourself first- if you choose to have a child, they should come first ALWAYS, unless the loss to them is insignificant in the long run. If you have aspie children sending them to bed at 10 past or 10 to 8 when they normally go at 8 (or any other seemingly trivial thing) could be abject torture for them, and I have experienced this torture, and my relationship with my mother is irreparably damaged because of it.
Putting the child(ren) first would exhaust the mother and spoil the child. That's my opinion - you have your own. I have the feeling, you only see the extreme sides of the possibilities. Kids can and have to learn that there is a middle way between getting all they want and getting nothing of that. That does not mean, they won't get what they need, that's something completely different. I am not sure if I understand you right, did you want to say that your relationship with your mother is damaged irreparabaly only because she did not send you to bet as clock 8 always? Well, even for me (being Aspie myself, having a difficult to raise Aspie son and a NT son who really suffers from the situation having an disaffectedly/flaky brother who is very aggressive and being really understandingly to a lot of peculiarities) this sounds quite exaggeratedly, but if that's your opinion - ok. I mean I don't doubt you needed to be send to bed at 8, but that the failure of your mom would damage your relationship completely sounds a bit too hard. So, can you confirm to me, you really meant your words that way?
Anyway, if your mom did not know or understand your need for perfect timing (for whatever reasons, not being told or not being able to understand) it might not have been a bad will of her or even a frowziness. It might have been her concept of time - I know a lot of people who would come a couple of minutes early or late to a meeting and nobody would care. So this is within a range of "normality" and nobody would know that there are people who have a real problem with that. So it's up to you to try to forgive her, not for her peace of mind, for your own!
As a mom, I know, I can live with the sayings of my kids: "I hate you forever if you don't give me an ice cream/gameboy ... now!"
Louise18 Wrote:
This thread was about getting a diagnosis which can be traumatic, unhelpful, labelling, demeaning, and if it is an offical diagnosis can force your child to declare it in the future when they don't want to and close doors to them in life (not only through prejudice but putting them off doing something which would mean disclosure).
Yes, it can, but one does not know. And (now you can hunt me down
:wink: ) I have an official diagnosis for my now 9 year old son. He got it with 6 years of age, when he already knew for at least 3 years that he was different from all of his peer group - and he had problems with being different and did not understand the least! So having a diagnosis for my son took some pressure of of both of us. It took pressure of me, because it was "not my fault" that my child acted "strange" (compared to other kids) and it took pressure of of him, because now people did not always expect him to react as a NT child and at least some people showed understanding. Before the diagnosis a lot of other parents have seen me as a "single parenting *** who is not capable of teaching her child decent manners" - how do you think one would live with that judgement? Even if I knew for myself that I did not hit my kids and that aggressive behavior wasn't what I showed my kids in daily life, it was me, who was sentenced. And I don't want anybody to go through that torture - having friends going away because of the misbehavior of the child!!
And I then had the chance to get help! We got ergotherapy and behavior therapy then, which we would not without a "label". We got help at school and an aide for my son, so he can attend a mainstream school (well, so he can attend a school - he would not, not even a special school would have taken him without aide) and we finally got what's called here "family help", which is a qualified person who talks about the problems of my family and tries to find solutions. Yes, we had disadvantages as well, my son was thrown out of his mainstream school and that was easier to do, but not because of the laben Asperger, but because of a school-internal label because of his social problems. That label he would have gotten anyway, with or without the diagnosis.
Louise18 Wrote:
And as for siblings- I don't believe you should have second children until you are sure your whole family could cope (especially your first child).
Do you really mean I should have made my vision of life and family up to what type of child I might have? Do you really think that my life and wishes are less worth than those of my children? Usually kids do adjust to whatever situation they are born into! And when I got pregnant with the second child there was no hint whatsoever that my eldest son would be an Aspie! He was a perfect and clever baby then. And by the way, it could have easily have come the other way round: the NT been born before the Aspie. The second child was born 1.5 years after the first and I wanted it that way. And even if I had known he was Aspie - one never knows which way is best! By the way... it's always the way you did not chose! Grass is always greener over there!
If you really think that children should always come first - do you agree to the charta of human rights?
I really can understand your points of view, but I disagree - it's not all false what you say, but it's not completely true for me, either.
And you really remember me of myself when I was at your age (assuming you are about 18 years of age) :smile: I loved arguing and having always the extreme/opposite opinion and I learned a lot by that. One thing was that a lot people (but not all) have reasons for what they do and for what they believe and those reasons usually are founded on their history/experience in life. So it's likely your opinions might change as well, when you grow older.
Sibylle
(and I'm sorry, if something in my post might sound aggressive or strange, it's not meant that way, please take into account, that English is not my native tongue and I had to look up a lot of the words and might use them out of their normal context - if this is so, please correct me, so I can learn)
09-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Louise 18, if everybody waited to have children until they could be sure they would be "perfect parents" barely anybody would have children.
Sadly, I still have a few issues with my mum. Intellectually, I know she did her very best but emotionally, I still think she saw me as some kind of threat and even now, puts me down (although I'm sure not intentionally).
Maybe you have more issues with the parent you feel closer to, even if the things they did are objectively far milder than what the other one did.
I certainly disagree that we should be all perfect. I have low self-esteem because of having internalised the idea that everything I do must be perfect. This is something I'm gradually learning to overcome but it would have helped to realise that the important thing is to give new things a try and that it takes time to be really good at an activity.
Also, it's important to realise we won't be good at everything.
I don't agree that we should aspire to become like size 6 supermodels. That is way too skinny and they usually have too big shoulders and heads for the rest of their bodies and this isn't what I call attractive.
It's time it was realised that most women are normally at least a size 10-12 and that this is fine. It's bad enough to have to cope with our other issues without also having to worry if we're too fat or not (particularly when most of us are actually "normal" weight - though not as skinny as the much-vaunted supermodels).
Sadly, I still have a few issues with my mum. Intellectually, I know she did her very best but emotionally, I still think she saw me as some kind of threat and even now, puts me down (although I'm sure not intentionally).
Maybe you have more issues with the parent you feel closer to, even if the things they did are objectively far milder than what the other one did.
I certainly disagree that we should be all perfect. I have low self-esteem because of having internalised the idea that everything I do must be perfect. This is something I'm gradually learning to overcome but it would have helped to realise that the important thing is to give new things a try and that it takes time to be really good at an activity.
Also, it's important to realise we won't be good at everything.
I don't agree that we should aspire to become like size 6 supermodels. That is way too skinny and they usually have too big shoulders and heads for the rest of their bodies and this isn't what I call attractive.
It's time it was realised that most women are normally at least a size 10-12 and that this is fine. It's bad enough to have to cope with our other issues without also having to worry if we're too fat or not (particularly when most of us are actually "normal" weight - though not as skinny as the much-vaunted supermodels).
09-16-2006, 04:08 PM
DW's mom
I don't know how old your son is (maybe I did not read it, or I forgot), but it might take a long long time for him to learn the validity of "shades".
My son is pretty much into black-and-white-thinking and I was quite the same as a child. Still I wished sometimes, that there would be an easy solution for some problems :roll: and that there really would only be one single correct way to do things or to think about something.
It took me a long time to accept that 1. there are a lot of valid ways of life, 2. that something that's right for me might be wrong for someone else or vice versa, 3. sometimes one has to accept that there might be no perfect solution to a problem and that 4. I'm not going to be perfect by my own judgements.
I think, I learned a lot of those things between my 17th and about 27th birthday and still go on learning (would be a shame if I stopped :wink: ). Then there was the insight that I should not judge someone else, before knowing all his/her facts, when I was in the situation that I was judged by the behavior of my child (partly I knew that before, but now I'm really careful with my judgements).
Anyway, there are a lot of NT people, who have little or no empathy at all or at least don't show it. It just depends on where you grew up and what the values of your peer groups were/are, I think. So if someone grew up, thinking empathy, pity, compassion and charity are a sign of weakness and therefor thought to be something bad, it's part of his/her culture not to show it. This might be one reason why a lot of Aspies have only bad experiences with NTs - living in an area with such a culture.
I know that my son sometimes uses his "tantrums" as a tool, but most of the time when he gets tantrums it's because of being overhelmed by a problem. But it's really driving me mad when I have the feeling that he wants to manipulate me with his tantrums, so I can understand that someone who has little understanding of Aspergers, might not understand that situation.
But I'm Aspie myself and I know how I felt as a child and how it was, when my tantrums were just thought to be naughtieness instead of cries for help. So I mainly think (and hope that I'm right, presuming that my son does not want to trick/fool me all of the time) he's in need for help and advice instead of being impudent and needing to be disciplined.
Sibylle
I don't know how old your son is (maybe I did not read it, or I forgot), but it might take a long long time for him to learn the validity of "shades".
My son is pretty much into black-and-white-thinking and I was quite the same as a child. Still I wished sometimes, that there would be an easy solution for some problems :roll: and that there really would only be one single correct way to do things or to think about something.
It took me a long time to accept that 1. there are a lot of valid ways of life, 2. that something that's right for me might be wrong for someone else or vice versa, 3. sometimes one has to accept that there might be no perfect solution to a problem and that 4. I'm not going to be perfect by my own judgements.
I think, I learned a lot of those things between my 17th and about 27th birthday and still go on learning (would be a shame if I stopped :wink: ). Then there was the insight that I should not judge someone else, before knowing all his/her facts, when I was in the situation that I was judged by the behavior of my child (partly I knew that before, but now I'm really careful with my judgements).
Anyway, there are a lot of NT people, who have little or no empathy at all or at least don't show it. It just depends on where you grew up and what the values of your peer groups were/are, I think. So if someone grew up, thinking empathy, pity, compassion and charity are a sign of weakness and therefor thought to be something bad, it's part of his/her culture not to show it. This might be one reason why a lot of Aspies have only bad experiences with NTs - living in an area with such a culture.
I know that my son sometimes uses his "tantrums" as a tool, but most of the time when he gets tantrums it's because of being overhelmed by a problem. But it's really driving me mad when I have the feeling that he wants to manipulate me with his tantrums, so I can understand that someone who has little understanding of Aspergers, might not understand that situation.
But I'm Aspie myself and I know how I felt as a child and how it was, when my tantrums were just thought to be naughtieness instead of cries for help. So I mainly think (and hope that I'm right, presuming that my son does not want to trick/fool me all of the time) he's in need for help and advice instead of being impudent and needing to be disciplined.
Sibylle
09-16-2006, 04:14 PM
tenaciouscj
I agree with most of your post... and I like the Nick Kershaw song... it reminds me of my teenage time :smile: Wonder, if I have an LP somewhere with it on, but remembering that I had little money then, I fear, no.
Yes, I have little self-esteem, myself, but being able to cope with a lot of the problems I have to face with my kids, it's growing.
Sibylle
I agree with most of your post... and I like the Nick Kershaw song... it reminds me of my teenage time :smile: Wonder, if I have an LP somewhere with it on, but remembering that I had little money then, I fear, no.
Yes, I have little self-esteem, myself, but being able to cope with a lot of the problems I have to face with my kids, it's growing.
Sibylle
09-16-2006, 04:27 PM
Ohh, you miss me - what are dummies? Is it a silencer?
09-17-2006, 08:58 AM
tenaciouscj
Yes, I dislike those dummies as well. My AS son never wanted one, but my younger son did - and I needed him to take one! He was a very nervous baby, who never was quiet/sleeping for more than 2 hours night or day. And having the older brother (1.5 years older, so still very young) to care for, too, it was an exhausting time for me and I was thankful for the silencer. I really don't remember, when I took it from him, but it was long before the time he went to kindergarten.
DWs mom
Hey :grin: so our kids are the same age and school grade. What a pity we live far from each other :wink:
Well, as we have wonderful late-summer-weather over here today, we decided to go inlineskating soon. As I have to prepare the luggage for my AS sons journey with his school from monday to friday, I got to logoff now. Cross your fingers this will be successful for him.
Sibylle
Yes, I dislike those dummies as well. My AS son never wanted one, but my younger son did - and I needed him to take one! He was a very nervous baby, who never was quiet/sleeping for more than 2 hours night or day. And having the older brother (1.5 years older, so still very young) to care for, too, it was an exhausting time for me and I was thankful for the silencer. I really don't remember, when I took it from him, but it was long before the time he went to kindergarten.
DWs mom
Hey :grin: so our kids are the same age and school grade. What a pity we live far from each other :wink:
Well, as we have wonderful late-summer-weather over here today, we decided to go inlineskating soon. As I have to prepare the luggage for my AS sons journey with his school from monday to friday, I got to logoff now. Cross your fingers this will be successful for him.
Sibylle
09-18-2006, 10:38 AM
Well, you want shades of grey? For me the following examples has some...
1. Our medicine can save lifes of babies that weren't born alive or would have died short after birth without it; a mother won't have as many children anymore and there would not be a harsh selection as it was about some hundred years ago without modern antibiotics, surgery and so on
2. Having those babies alive and letting them reproduce will probably bring more illnesses into human race (if you accept the presumtion of evolution being true) that will have to be treatet by even more modern medicine in future generations, because it's no more "survival of the fittest", but survival of the first-born
So what would be ethical correct = white? To save as much lifes as we can, just because we can and don't matter what this will do to humankind and what damage might be done to our genetic pool?
Or to let children die if they can't survive without modern medicine?
For me both ways are wrong and I don't know a solution. I would not accept to let someone die if it can be helped, but I don't think it's right the other way round, either, for it might damage future generations and weaken humankind to extinction.
So for me what we do is grey, but I don't see a white way - do you? At least without just ignoring the consequences that might be...
I'm not very good in translating examples into english, I'm sorry. But for me there's a lot of human interaction where I only see shades of grey. That's a lot of politics - there's always someone who will have to suffer without any fault and unrightful because of some political decisions.
Sibylle
1. Our medicine can save lifes of babies that weren't born alive or would have died short after birth without it; a mother won't have as many children anymore and there would not be a harsh selection as it was about some hundred years ago without modern antibiotics, surgery and so on
2. Having those babies alive and letting them reproduce will probably bring more illnesses into human race (if you accept the presumtion of evolution being true) that will have to be treatet by even more modern medicine in future generations, because it's no more "survival of the fittest", but survival of the first-born
So what would be ethical correct = white? To save as much lifes as we can, just because we can and don't matter what this will do to humankind and what damage might be done to our genetic pool?
Or to let children die if they can't survive without modern medicine?
For me both ways are wrong and I don't know a solution. I would not accept to let someone die if it can be helped, but I don't think it's right the other way round, either, for it might damage future generations and weaken humankind to extinction.
So for me what we do is grey, but I don't see a white way - do you? At least without just ignoring the consequences that might be...
I'm not very good in translating examples into english, I'm sorry. But for me there's a lot of human interaction where I only see shades of grey. That's a lot of politics - there's always someone who will have to suffer without any fault and unrightful because of some political decisions.
Sibylle
09-18-2006, 10:42 AM
And for your mother, would there be any way to tell her, that it's something else that bothers you and not boyfriend trouble?
She probably can only imagine what she herself felt at your age, she won't be able to read your mind (when I was a child I always thought everyone else could, because it seemed they all knew what I didn't) and she's depending on what you tell her about your inner life.
I know this is very complicated to do with your own mother (I never could! but I wished I would have), so maybe you could find someone elder to talk to about those problems. And if it was someone who knows your mother, he or she could talk with her about it - with your permission of course.
I sometimes find it easier to discuss problems with not involved people and then find solutions I'd never thought of alone.
Sibylle
She probably can only imagine what she herself felt at your age, she won't be able to read your mind (when I was a child I always thought everyone else could, because it seemed they all knew what I didn't) and she's depending on what you tell her about your inner life.
I know this is very complicated to do with your own mother (I never could! but I wished I would have), so maybe you could find someone elder to talk to about those problems. And if it was someone who knows your mother, he or she could talk with her about it - with your permission of course.
I sometimes find it easier to discuss problems with not involved people and then find solutions I'd never thought of alone.
Sibylle
09-19-2006, 08:25 AM
Louise
Yes, it would be easy to say, physically weak but hyperintelligent people can indeed be successful in life and bring benefits to humankind. But it's not always that way. Lots of children are born physically weak and without sufficient intelligence - by the "normal" human standards. They will never make own reasonable decisions - if they were to make their own decisions, they might harm themselfes or others.
AND even those people who have physical deficies in fact do reproduce - who could forbid them to? Yes, they could adopt people or implant eggs or use other individuals genes for own offspring - because of modern and very expensive medicinetechnology, but the wish for own children often outweights the wisdom of such a decision.
And if everyone should be real free to make his/her own decisions wouldn't it be consequent to say that there should be no laws? I really don't think most people are "human" enough to do so.
I really believe that the main type of how we raise our children has develloped on the basis how it works and how not. Of course this does not mean we should accept everything as given without thinking for better ways. If we treated everybody equal - we'd be very unfair! Having all the same expectations to different people would not make them equal at all!
Sibylle
Yes, it would be easy to say, physically weak but hyperintelligent people can indeed be successful in life and bring benefits to humankind. But it's not always that way. Lots of children are born physically weak and without sufficient intelligence - by the "normal" human standards. They will never make own reasonable decisions - if they were to make their own decisions, they might harm themselfes or others.
AND even those people who have physical deficies in fact do reproduce - who could forbid them to? Yes, they could adopt people or implant eggs or use other individuals genes for own offspring - because of modern and very expensive medicinetechnology, but the wish for own children often outweights the wisdom of such a decision.
And if everyone should be real free to make his/her own decisions wouldn't it be consequent to say that there should be no laws? I really don't think most people are "human" enough to do so.
I really believe that the main type of how we raise our children has develloped on the basis how it works and how not. Of course this does not mean we should accept everything as given without thinking for better ways. If we treated everybody equal - we'd be very unfair! Having all the same expectations to different people would not make them equal at all!
Sibylle
09-20-2006, 04:55 AM
Louise18 Wrote:
I do not believe in having welfare to maintain them as an adult, though sybille, so while a they would survive childhood, they would not be able to reproduce if they could not make it as an adult.
I think you are wrong with that. Even people who live on welfare, are not able to manage their own life to a decent degree and are still a dead load to society will be able to reproduce. Just because there's welfare for them lifelong.
Remember, I'm not saying we shoud let "weak" babies die! I only think that maybe it's not good for humankind to be intelligent enough to devellop technic and medicine that we aren't wise enough to use.
We (humankind) are on our way to change our world to a degree where we can't live on it anymore - anyway, some kind of life will probably survive.
Sibylle
09-20-2006, 04:57 AM
And... I really do include myself in "not being wise enough" I'm sorry to admit...
Sometimes I wishe'd not to be so true...
Sib
I'm sorry to admit...Sometimes I wishe'd not to be so true...
Sib
09-20-2006, 02:49 PM
My mum's just the same... she always wants to tell me what to do with my kids. If it was to her will, I'd have to bring them to school and pick them up every day (school of the smaller one is only 10 minutes slow walk in a quiet neighbourhood, crossing only one quite small street with a "safety-island" in the middle). I would not be allowed to let them go to the bakery or small shops "around the corner" on their own...
So she's worse to my kids then to me, but she tries to patronize me as well.
Maybe that's how mums are all their life?
Sibylle
So she's worse to my kids then to me, but she tries to patronize me as well.
Maybe that's how mums are all their life?
Sibylle