Aspies For Freedom

Berit, your house sounds like Hitler's Germany.

I think it is fairly obvious that the benefits versus disadvantages a psychological diagnosis of aspergers is something that the person themself is best place to make as no-one else has the self-knowledge to know themselves that well.

If you truly think you should just make all your child's decisions without them then I give up. You are a lost cause, and I truly truly pity your child. I think you have proved yourself to be either a) a pragmatist or b) totally uneducated about philosoph, which is even more of an argument why you shouldn't be allowed to make a decision on your child's behalf where philosophical considerations come into it.

I am looking at this from the philosophical point of view that a person is born owning themselves, and therefore should have 100% say in what they do.

Of course children aren't at some stages capable of thinking through a proper decision, because they don't have the experience, knowledge or mental capacity.

However, your job as a parent is to MAKE THE DECISION YOU THINK THEY WOULD MAKE, IF THEY HAD YOUR KNOWLEGE AND EXPERIENCE. It is not to simply make your own decision on what you think is best.

I have already said that 8 is too young to make a decision on something like that. That is why I have said to wait.

It is the philosophy itself which I am at odds with DW, and I would have jumped down your neck even if it had been presented in your oh-so-politically-skillful manner.

As for the patronising comments at how sweet I am giving the child's point of view, I suggest you go and read your Bentham and your John Stuart Mill, and your Kant etc and then come back to me on the philosophy one, instead of simply disregarding it.

I am not talking about every decision. I am not talking about little daily decisions. I am talkiing about ascertaining what is really important to him. And making sure you get those ones right.

We are talking about a psychological diagnosis not what breakfast cereal or what trousers or whether to be on the school football team.

edited the last post as it was somewhat revealing of my identity.

DW a large proportion of people with aspergers have the self-conscious age from much younger to much older than a normal person, and this can be particularly true of girls.

As you may also notice if you look at the embarassment thread, while some aspies do not suffer with it at all others suffer excrutiatingly at the slightest thing. And the latter may be the most upset by their social problems, and the most problematic at home.

You cannot expect us to give a carefully considered, and supportive response to extremely emotionally charged issues. We are not trained to do that, and have sub-normal skills to do so. Also improvement necessarily requires criticism and disagreement. The whole point of the site is to have a more objective approach- the nanny found it easier to make the right decision as a nanny than as a mother because she was objective, and from many angles.

Parenting might be difficult to do, but its pretty important to avoid mistakes, and that won't happen without a critical approach at what is already going on.

Can I suggest a separate section for  parent support, which includes only parents and one for  parent advice, which includes everyone. Then advice can be filtered through between the two forums by yourself for the more sensitive parents and anyone else who is willing to do so in a more 'supportive' manner, while not losing the educational value of the site.

I disagree with you entirely sybille. You should be trying to AVOID teaching your child your own culture, and allowing them to find their own.

Trying your best is no good if your best is not good enough. You should have made that judgement about yourself BEFORE you got pregnant.

And as for putting yourself first- if you choose to have a child, they should come first ALWAYS, unless the loss to them is insignificant in the long run. If you have aspie children sending them to bed at 10 past or 10 to 8 when they normally go at 8 (or any other seemingly trivial thing) could be abject torture for them, and I have experienced this torture, and my relationship with my mother is irreparably damaged because of it.

This thread was about getting a diagnosis which can be traumatic, unhelpful, labelling, demeaning, and if it is an offical diagnosis can force your child to declare it in the future when they don't want to and close doors to them in life (not only through prejudice but putting them off doing something which would mean disclosure).

Diagnosis can often be a thing that helps the family much more than it helps the child. This is only acceptable if it will not in any way negatively affect the child in the future. This cannot be guaranteed without full consent.

And as for siblings- I don't believe you should have second children until you are sure your whole family could cope (especially your first child).

edit: and DW your son is 1 person. You don't need to get on with every aspie to get on with him, just like you don't need to get on with every single normal person to have friends. The main thing that helps is if you find someone who has a similar personality and beliefs to  him and can articulate them to you in a more dispassionate manner, and perhaps give you some solutions.

Excellent parenting, not perfect parenting. I think you can know. I know I wouldnt be good enough.

And yes, teaching your culture is fair enough. I guess I read 'indoctrinating', which is what biased teaching can be if its done at a young age without looking enough at the alternatives. It depends how you put it across and your overall approach.

My father is a violent alchoholic who broke my parents marriage up by cheating.

He has caused me a total of 4 weeks emotional pain. My mother has caused me years, and she did nothing society would consider wrong. It simply doesnt always work that way.

From my impression of you DW, you seem to be quite good at it

At least with the important things.

I think incredibly high standards need to be set for mothers. The difference between reality and expectation affects everyone. I should be a size six have perfect skin, never fail an exam etc. No politician should ever make a balls up. No woman should ever have cellulite on show or wear a mis-matched dress. Companies should make money and be ethicall bla bla bla.

Just becuase models cause eating disorders in some, doesnt mean they shouldnt be there as aspirational role models.

Just because politicians will always make balls ups doesnt mean they shouldnt be lobbied in the press.

We should all aim for perfection, and expect excellent. That is the point of human existence.

My mother thinks I am a spoiled brat and that I tantrum to control everything.

No I don't see a 'correct' perspective. Any philosophy has axioms...things which are 'self evident' (they are not in fact self-evident they just must be taken to be self evident in order for any thought process to be taken). One of the key axioms is the answer to what is the purpose of life?- someone who takes the hedonist view will have an entirely different ideology from someone who believes in service to God or whatever. A number of presumptions must be made in order to follow a logical line to a conclusion.

None can be considered wrong as there is no absolute truth. However, the only ideologies which have 'shades of grey' intrinsic to them are ones which incorporate pragmatism (which I detest). The others have shades of grey because it is impossible for people to distinguish the line of thought due to the limited human intellect.

While I accept there are other valid ideologies 1) People are usually being logically inconsistent and 2) I will always judge them according to, and try to convince them of my own ideology, which does not include pragmatism. Accordingly, I judge them with reference to what I consider to be perfection, and expect to be judged according to what they consider to be perfection.

I was not saying that going to bed at 8 o'clock was something I required or that had severed my relationship with my mother. I am saying that seemingly trivial things can cause me abject torture. And I know time can be one of them for some aspies.

No I don't think seeing the benefits of the label would have endeared me to the idea. As I said I am not a pragmatist. A mother should not require a label to avoid torturing her daughter. Some people cannot tolerate certain situaitons, simply saying this should be sufficient.

I can be extremely manipulative. I have a sharp tongue and I know where to hit when I want it to hurt. However, nobody would ever choose to humiliate themselves to manipulate someone. A person who was manipulative would calm down once they got their way not be emotionally drained and tearful for days afterwards. She shouldnt need a label to see that difference. The humiliation of that is as painful as the event. She never seems to get that 6 months later I can suddenly spend the weekend in bed in tears just thinking about what she did and worrying if she will do it again. She always assumes its some boyfriend issue.

Grey is just black and white looked at from a distance. If you look closely enough, you can distinguish it. Sometimes you can't, but this is due to a failure in the human eyesight, just as grey areas in ethics are due to failures of the human intellect-which are sometimes unavoidable.

Sybille in answer to your philosophical question, it depends on how you define 'better'. For me it is intelligence, so a physically weak person who was very clever would be superior to a normal healthy baby. Also, not everyone who survives has to contribute to the gene pool. They can adopt, use eggs/sperm of another individual, have their own eggs/sperm screened and artificially inseminated or not have children at all.

No DW, you do not need to see shades of grey, you just need to understand the black perspective when you are coming from the white, thats all.

Which is why I never agree with spreading anything out, or making any assumptions, and why I believe a person should have total ownership and the maximum possible control over themself from birth. No-one else can see from their perspective as well as they can.

I do not believe in having welfare to maintain them as an adult, though sybille, so while a they would survive childhood, they would not be able to reproduce if they could not make it as an adult.


DW I am not saying that the child has to have their own way no matter what. There will be times when the child giving up something unimportant such as spending an hour at their least favourite childminders is necessary for the harmony of the family. As long as you recognise that there will be times when the child just has to have it their way or the wheels fall off and not give yourself this exclusive, or greater rights because you are the parent. A lot of parents do this, and I think it is an abuse of authority.

Depends. I know a couple of situations like that that are the reason my wheels will never be on again.

Yes sybille they are able to reproduce, because there is a welfare system. What I am saying is I don't agree with the existence of that welfare system.

Depends on what you mean by selfish. She miscalculated the benefit to her vs damage to me ratio. But with some children she might have been correct. She has also done considerable damage to herself for something she thought would have benefited a normal child but to me made no difference (stayed in her marriage too long), so I don't think she is particularly selfish. Just stupid.

I believe society should be judged by the achievements of its strongest members. And my solution would be just leave them to their own devices. If they live, good for them, if they don't *shrug*.

Nice post energeia, I think I will be alright as soon as I get away from my family. Unfortunately, I will not be leaving at 18. I know I will probably get called all things under the sun for staying when I hate my mother so much, but I have experienced what sort of jobs, and pay I could expect without a degree, and I am not prepared to give up the opportunity to go to university when I have been accepted into what I consider to be the best uni in the country for my course. I would be miserable forever if I gave up that chance. At least this way I will be happy for the 6 months a year I am away at uni.