AN AUTISTIC civil servant was fired by tax office managers after union representatives labelled him a health hazard, a tribunal has heard, writes Craig Brown.
Patrick Roberts, 48, was sacked from his job with Customs and Excise when representatives from the LTS union described his behaviour as "a health and safety risk" to his fellow workers.
Mr Roberts, who suffers from Asperger's syndrome - a form of autism - was disciplined following accusations that he deliberately shoved into female colleagues and listened in on their conversations.
Mr Roberts was sacked in 2002 over a row with his line manager, which saw her sent home in tears.
Managers later denied any knowledge of his Asperger's syndrome - which can lead to social awkwardness and eccentric behaviour - and claimed that they were only aware of him being on medication for depression.
The father of two claims he was punished for behaviour linked to his disability and was suffering from depression at the time of the allegations.
Mr Roberts, of Edinburgh, is claiming disability discrimination and unfair dismissal against Customs and Excise after he was dismissed from his job booking VAT inspections with businesses.
The tribunal continues.
From scotsman.com
This reminds me of an article in the current Times magazine. The current trend in hiring to be to hire people for "personality" even if they have the skills. They are giving people Myers-Briggs tests and firing the "introverts".
People might actually be surprised when they learn that I have a neurological difference (some say disability) - that is why I am so weird. The reason why I want to eat lunch alone is so that I will say things to them that will make them hate me more.
"was disciplined following accusations that he deliberately shoved into female colleagues and listened in on their conversations."
I constantly walk into people just because I am clumsy and there is the distance judging problem. I seem to listen in on other people's conversations because I do not know how to join in on them. People have to learn to include me in such as asking "what do you think about this, X?" Unless people were to tell me "we do not want you to sit at our lunch table" I am not going to understand the non-verbal communication going on to tell me to go away. -And telling a co-worker to go away would seem rude.
"was sacked in 2002 over a row with his line manager, which saw her sent home in tears." These type of confrontations can be avoided if people with AS are given clear guidelines to work within. A written notice of a probem followed by a private meeting later is more productive than an angry reactive yelling match when something goes wrong.
Mr Roberts, who suffers from Asperger's syndrome - a form of autism - was disciplined following accusations that he deliberately shoved into female colleagues and listened in on their conversations.
Okay, how the heck does this represent a "health and safety risk"???
I've been reduced to tears more than once by colleagues (particularly the Level 4 of Green Room grrr!) also excluded, ignored, and some being downright rude. None of them have been given the sack. Is it a case of one rule for the NTs and another for the Aspies, or is it just that NTs work the system better, seeing as they invented the rules in the first place to suit themselves?
Alison
Regarding the bryers-miggs tests - are there any specific cases of someone being fired purely on the basis of being an introvert? I would imagine that someone fired based on this could sue for unfair dismissal.
I got laid off a job about one week after taking Myers-Briggs test. They had added to my duties from what I had been hired for. I had also applied for a different job than I was hired for.
I have sometimes been asked similar types of questions that are on Myers-Briggs test at job interviews or part of selection process and never been hired. - or even called back to explain why I was not hired.
Here is what was in Time magazine July 31, 2006, page 48, "Guys Just Want to Have Fun" by Barbara Ehrenreich.
"In the June article on corporate personality testing, the Washington Post reported on a woman who passed the skills test for a customer-care job but wasn't hired because she failed the personality test. Those tests, including the ubitquitous Myers-Briggs test, have no scientific credibility or predictive value, as Annie Murphy Paul showed in her 2004 book, Cult of Personality. ....... Their chief function, as far as I could tell when I took them, was to week out the introverts...... An Atlanta woman I interviewed, a skilled website writer, was fired without explanation after a few weeks at a job. 'I tried to fit in,' she told me. 'I went to lunch with the guys, but all they talked about wa sports, which I know nothing about, and they all seemed to know each other from college.' Poor thing, she had probably wasted her college years in the library."
Mostly the article was about corporate jobs seemed to value "personality, attitude and likability" over higher degrees.
Having had a successfull career prior to marriage and children, I will have to agree that the corporate world values social skills very highly. But, where those skills place is usually going to be dependent on the type of job. Unfortunately, too many companies are either lazy or incapable of doing thoughtful interviewing, and rely on things like tests and other apparent unbiased indicators. Having had some of my most successful hires also be my most instinctive (ie I wanted to hire them regardless of weak resumes and other negative indicators), I can say that companies using things like this are short changing themselves, too.
Some fields expect poor social skills at the start out, and mine was actually one of those. Social skills had little to do with success at an entry level, since the field is technical, but they did acquire prominence as you tried to move up in the field. At a higher level you were expected to interact with clients, present a positive image, and sell services to new clients. We actually held regular training sessions to help shy associates acquire the skills and advance. I can't imagine firing someone who can do the work for lack of social skills, but I can see how the path to advancement would be difficult. But, this experience of mine is now 10 years old, and maybe things are changing.
A friend was telling me the other day that "teamwork" is taking on a new prominence in corporate speak. Maybe this is the cause of the increased and inappropriate emphasis on social skills. She is NT and has great social skills, but she feels the concept of teamwork is overused. Teams have their place as a vehicle for meshing different strengths and weaknesses, as she sees it, but her sense is that companies are trying to build cohesive teams simply because it sounds good, and without a solid reason to have them, thereby overemphazing personalities and how people will fit together, having them waste time in extra team building meetings, and so forth.
To some degree, social skills are related to the success of the work. Often more than people realize before starting work. But it can be taken too far. Someone should never be fired for lack of social skills alone; it has to be looked at from how it affects their work and the work of those around them. And even then, isn't there room for training and conversation in order to take a skilled person and make them a successful employee?
In the situation that started the thread, I think it goes deeper than they have said. I suspect that this person has upset the workforce for years, and they felt they had to react. They must have gone through a process of trying to affect change with this man, and they must have felt it all fell on deaf ears. It's sad when things get to that point.
The other posts describing firings after just a week or two or based on a test ... I think that's nuts. People need to be given a chance, and sometimes they need a little help in order for that chance to be a real and fair one.
Sigh.
I have to run ... the kids need to get to camp. I think I've rambled a bit above and I'm not sure I've made any points well, but I'll leave it for now.
When I worked in conveyancing for the local government building inspectors, (before I got the qualifactions for my current job with preschoolers) we had an employee who was very into the social side of it, to the exclusion of his work. I could churn through ten files while he: made a cup of coffee, talked to colleagues about what they did on the weekend/sport, surfed the internet, made a few phone calls, checked his email, made another cuppa, etc.
The boss eventually gave him a glowing recommendation and he got a promotion out of our department. The boss said afterwards that he was SO glad he got the job, as he wasn't getting any work done at all.
Alison
No problem for me then because I can get any result from the Myers-Briggs test I think they want. I honestily score about 100% introverted
it would be so easy for me to score 100% extroverted!
Those personality tests are supposed to have trick questions built into them to detect lying, but I'm sure that it wouldn't be too difficult for a smart "introvert" to lie their way into getting an extrovert's result. We all know what the employers are looking for, as they write this stuff in their job ads and talk about what type of personalities that they want: easy-going, bubbly, sociable, outgoing, sport fans, team players, you know the crap they go on about. I think this is fair enough for specific positions that involve contact with the general public or non-technical jobs that mostly involve dealing with people, but I strenuously object to the blanket discrimination against introverts and autistics that is commonplace, and the victimization of people in some workplaces who do not socialize and join cliques at work (either inside or outside work time). I was forced out of my last steady job in the federal public service after a coordinated bullying campaign by a group of female supervisors. I personally know some quite disturbed and unpleasant people who have worked for many years in the state public service, which I have read is currently in a state of crisis as it is unable to attract good applicants and is riddled with bullying and corruption. They reap what they sow.
I've lied in personality tests and stretched the truth in many statements addressing selection criteria. The NT world runs on lies, and who am I to upset the way they run things? When they discriminate, lies are what they deserve.
There's one kind of situation in which it can be useful to be an aspie; when you are being pressured into going to job interviews for $13 per hour crap jobs by employment agencies working for Centrelink. If you don't want the job and you're an aspie, all you have to do is "act natural" and "be yourself" and you are sure to not get the job. Just make as much eye contact as you find comfortable, be honest about what you think and feel, don't force yourself to smile or pretend to be amused by the interviewer's jokes, and if the boss talks about his favourite footy team, reply that you don't follow the footy and have never had any interest in any sport. Then you will be shown the door.