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It probably won't surprise anyone, but I LOVED the list.  I've repeated lots of the above lots of time to young associates who want it all NOW and want to whine when they get don't it.  I started my professional life with a used 15 year old car and 2 suits that I wore on alternate days.  No nice stereo, no furniture, nothing.

There is nothing in me that is bitter about any of it.  In many ways, those were great days.  Full of promise and discovery.  Something new to learn around each corner.  And I have moved on to quite a good deal of success, and have earned the luxury of hanging out on the internet in places like this while still being able to pay the bills.

People appreciate most what they have earned through hard work.  Anyone who has lived life as an adult more than 10 to 20 years can tell you that.  It's not a secret.  It's only a secret to those who insist on always blaming someone else for everything they don't have.

I still don't have fancy cars or a big house.  I've watched and learned:  none of that makes you happy.  We give our luxury money away to my son's school and to charity.  Buying stuff just means you have, well, more STUFF.  Better to make a difference in this world.

Questionable business practices aside, Bill Gates IS willing to put his money where it matters.  I respect that about him.  A lot.  And I also think he chose extremely well when he married.  

I will  not deny that there are some people that need a hand up in this world.  I donate to many causes that I believe help those in need.  Those who need should have.

But those who want without actually having need ... they need to learn.

As for how to spend your time when employed ... the discussions above are starting from totally different assumptions.  If you are unemployed like my sister was, sitting on a nice stash of cash, you can use that time to further common interests of society while waiting for just the right job to come along.  She felt that taking "any" job could permanently derail her career, and she certainly proved her wait to have been worth it when she landed a new job at 50% higher pay than her previous one.  But she had also earned that luxury for herself, but saving instead of spending her earnings to date.

Not all unemployment is equal.  There are many different reasons someone might be unemployed.  How flipping burgers would fit into it all rather depends on the reason you are not employed, wouldn't it?  Someone looking for a job, without a previously established career, without special training, and finding themselves unable to land anything that they dream of doing, should seriously consider taking the burger flipping job.  A client who interviews for a delivery service tells me it is astounding how many people will show up late for an interview, have no previous work experience, complain the whole way through the interview, and then chew her out when they find they are not hired.  Surprise, surprise, even package sorters are expected to show they can be on time, work hard, and have a positive attitude.
They are parasites, but that is an unfortunate side effect of dignity. Dignity also keeps people from doing things that would be low and sometimes illegal, like selling drugs. Take the bad with the good, and if that means we get a few parasites so be it.

Gareth Wrote:
Parasites have dignity?

Yes. Parasites like lice go for cleaner hair instead of hair rarely washed. I think that's how it goes anyway. But I just know that they have dignity, as most things do.

Gareth Wrote:
haha

Seriously - how do people who are perfectly capable of working and yet don't even attempt to get a job and instead live off benefits for life have dignity?

It's very tempting to quote Clerks here, but I'm waiting until I see the sequal. There might be some more relevant things there.

Vespers Wrote:
Whay assume that one's dignity or lack thereof must be determined by whether or not they work? That is an assumption that many cultures other than the US/Great Britain do not share.

If you don't have to "work for a living", why work? If you work, and make enough to support your basic needs, why work harder?

We should be content in any situation, and alive to the beauty of the world around us right now, rather than constantly scrambling toward some hypothetical "better deal."


I can totally agree with your last paragraph.  I'm not one for pursuing the fast track beyond what it takes to make you happy,  and killing yourself by overwork isn't a great thing, either.  Been there, done that.

But, when you talk about not having to work for a living, my question is why don't you have to?

Because your parents made a ton of money and left it to you?  Well, if you aren't wasting it and are using your free time in a positive way, OK.  You were given a gift and it is yours to use.  But too many of these kids are aimless and directionless and building something for themselves would have given them a stronger sense of self and purpose.

Because you saved and saved?  Great.  You've earned it.  Enjoy.

Because the government will give you just enough to live on?  Unless someone can't work, I think that is selfish and lazy.  Someone else earned that money for you!  As a taxpayer, I resent it.  And, I have every right to resent it.  I have no problem supporting those who can't support themselves, but those who CAN support themselves, should, and should NOT ask me to do it.  I can think of better places for my money to go.

Plenty of other cultures beside the US and UK value work.  Japan, China.  Most of the world, does, actually.  The few countries that do not currently value it have been living off the wealth of generations past, really, and it is unclear how much longer they will be able to offer the generous social systems they have in place.  I think life in those places is pretty sweet at the moment, and the US can learn a few things from it, but someone IS paying for it, make no mistake.  Nothing comes for free.

http://www.greenaudit.org/new_page_18.htm

Quote:
  Seven Myths About Work was published by Green Audit in 1996. The book was well received around the world and sold out within two years. A second, updated edition is available as an Acrobat file under the title Arbeit Macht Frei and Other Lies about Work.

The following is a selection from the first edition of Seven Myths About Work: the preface, contents page and first chapter, the ‘myth of the Jolly Worker’.

Preface
There is so much to say about work. What inspired me to pull together this short book was my belief that much of the unhappiness in modern society is caused by work, or more precisely by work as it has been arranged in the present industrial system.

We live on a beautiful planet whose oceans glint and gleam, whose countryside spreads around us, where there is food in abundance for all and enough land for us all to live and peace and fulfillment. Yet every day the people I pass in the street hurry by with sad, anxious faces. What is their hurry? I would venture that work is at the root of it. Yet work is part of what it is to be human. Findings ways of work that are useful and good is therefore an important challenge for all of us.

There is so much to say about work. I would have liked to write about fathers who only know their children for two weeks a year because of work. Or of children how, once adult, blame their fathers for never having been around, when work was the real villain. I would have liked to have written of the tragedy of workers whose lives revolve around their two weeks each year in the sun. So that 25/26 of their lives are spent in endurance for the remaining 1/26 that brings them joy.

I would have liked to write about what we gain from good work. A sense of confidence in our ability to complete the task. Our satisfaction in working together with others on an important project. The pleasure we find in our workmates.

But this is a short book, so I have restricted myself to considering seven of the many myths about work that colour our thinking. I have intended to present some facts about work culled from research in diverse fields. If we are to reorgnize work so that it works for us we need to see through the ideology of work that has grown up since the Industrial Revolution. The first step is to explode the myths that make up that ideology.

Contents
Hi Ho, Hi Ho: The Myth of the Jolly Worker
The Myth of Job Creation
Work is Good for You
The Myth of Women’s Work
Work Makes you Rich
A Job for Life
Working for Yourself
Conclusion: The Future of Work
Hi Ho, Hi Ho: The Myth of the Jolly Worker
The most striking thing about work in the twentieth century is just how much of it there seems to be. In spite of the several millions of unemployed people, who are required to ritually beat their breast in order to earn their dole payments, the rest of us spend most of our lives with our noses to various grind-stones, barely finding time even to talk to each other or appreciate our surroundings. The other extraordinary aspect is that so few people ever question why we should have to work so hard. When I first came upon the collection Why Work? published by the anarchist Freedom Press I was faintly scandalized. But the more I have thought about it the more it seems a question well worth asking. Why do so many people feel so unhappy in their work and yet never question why they should have to do it?

And what about alternative forms of societies that we like to think of as `primitive’? Surely without the benefits of technology and in the inhospitable conditions left to them after the world-wide spread of the white caucasian male they must be working night and day to survive? Anthropologists have found the reverse: long working hours seem to be the product of industrial society. Research has shown that in most hunter-gatherer societies people are not required to work hard.

For example, the Kung! bushmen in the Kalahari desert of Southwest Africa and the Hazda, in a dry rocky region of East Africa work only about 12-20 hours per week. . . The Kung youth do not work regularly until they marry (age 15-20 for women, 20-25 for men), and the aged, blind, and crippled are not only supported but are respected for their technical and ritual skills. Childhood, adolescence, and old age are carefree, at least economically. (p. 14).

The contrast between the intensity of work for a US worker and the more leisurely pace of life in a traditional society is also brought out by the following quotation:

While a fairly leisurely year for the United States workers (including a full month of summer vacation) involves about 221 working days, the comparable figure for the Kung! would be 121 days. This is enough to support not only the workers but the 40 per cent of the population that is non-productive.

Of course these bush people do not have the benefits of Western technology: they are sadly bereft of computer games and hamburger bars. But, according to the researchers, they do not live marginally, and starvation and malnutrition are uncommon, even during droughts.

So how can it be that with our superior intellects and our advanced technology we require so many more hours from each member of society per week to ensure our economic survival? Why do people in developed societies in the twentieth century work so hard? The answer to this is the ideology that tells us we must work, that makes the question `Why work?’ so difficult to ask. This is what I refer to as the myth of the jolly worker.

The Religious Origin of the Work Ethic
In modern Western society people work on average more hours than they ever have before. We read that the miners of Thuringia, Germany in the middle ages worked only 35 hours a week; life for a medieval peasant was probably similarly untaxing. Researchers have calculated that `slash-and-burn’ agriculture requires 10-30 hours per week; whereas plough-based agriculture, which was the means of survival of most people in Medieval Europe, requires 30-35 hours per week. While life in the middle ages may have been somewhat brutish and rather short, its nastiness seems likely to have been a post hoc construction of later ideologists. In Medieval times nearly half the days of the year were `holy days’ dedicated to some obscure saint or other as an excuse for getting drunk and not working.

In his classic The Making of the English Working Class (and in his paper specifically on the issue; 1967), the historian E. P. Thompson describes the difficulties faced by the early capitalists in persuading their employees to turn up for work every day at a set time. It took severe punishments to conquer the peasant’s or artisan’s attachment to `Saint Monday’: a day spent in bed to recover from the excesses of the weekend or perhaps to drink away the horrors of hell threatened in church on the preceding Sunday. According to Thompson, wool-combers did not work Tuesday or Wednesday either. They lit the stove on Monday (presumably still suffering from hangovers) and then returned on Thursday to think about getting down to work. This only left Friday, and possibly part of Saturday, before the weekend revelling started again.

According to Thompson an industrial work structure required a disciplined workforce. The fear of punishment or starvation was part of the processes of discipline, but for workers to be really effective they needed to feel committed to their work: this required the invention of the ideology of work, which originally had its roots in religion.

This is where the Protestant work ethic identified by the sociologist Max Weber enters the discussion. In the case of the weaving communities studied by Thompson the people were Methodists: it was Methodism, which stressed the value of discipline, hard work and frugality. Capitalists found it much more efficient to turn the labourer into his own slave-driver by inculcating in him an ideology of thankless, unrewarded toil in exchange for a place in heaven. `They weakened the poor from within, by adding to them the active ingredient of submission; and they fostered within the Methodist Church those elements most suited to make up the psychic component of the work-discipline of which the manufacturers stood most in need.’ (Thompson, 1963: 355).

Weber drew a distinction between the Catholic cultures of southern Europe which have a more relaxed attitude towards work, and the Protestant cultures of northern Europe, where work was viewed as a religious duty. He gave this as the reason why the economic system of capitalism developed in northern rather than southern Europe. The Protestant faiths stressed the importance of the `inner compulsion’ or `calling’. It was believed that labour was a punishment for the original sin of pride: God assigned to each person his or her place and that it was the duty of that person to spend all his or her life and energy working as well as possible in that station, atoning for sin and hopefully earning a place in heaven. The accumulation of wealth was actually viewed as a sign of God’s blessing. However, it was immoral to enjoy oneself with this wealth: one could only acquire more and then invest it in further industrial projects.

To illustrate the contrast in attitudes to work we can explore the example of the Irish worker, who shared the more relaxed Catholic attitude. The denigration of Irish workers in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries knew no bounds. In spite of the fact that it was mainly Irish labourers who constructed much of the infrastructure to support the Industrial Revolution in England, they were despised and forced to live beyond the pale of Protestant civilization. Many towns and villages have an `Irish town’ nearby where the labourers lived. The viaducts, canals, and railway cuttings are testimony to their hard work, yet they were despised for drinking and enjoying themselves with the proceeds.

In Japan the work ethic is also closely tied to culture and religion. It has been a source of great interest that Japan has become more successfully capitalist than the European countries that invented the system, and much time has been spent trying to work out what it is about Japanese culture that makes it such fertile ground for industrial production and marketing systems. It appears that religion also plays an important role in Japan. According to the Japanese sociologist Sengoku Tomatsu the concept of Bushido or the way of the warrior is very like that of the Protestant `calling’ in the sense of being a religious dictate about how one should spend one’s life. It is interesting that Samuel Smiles’s Self-Help, the apotheosis of ideas about self-improvement through hard work, sold more than a million copies when it was translated into Japanese in the late nineteenth century.

Japanese codes of honour and the particular morality of the Buddhist Shin sect created the perfect cultural support for capitalism in Japan. The sect valued loyalty and collectivism particularly highly, and scientific interests were also important. These religious ideas were transplanted into the workplace so that the Japanese worker can now be said to view his workplace as `a place for his soul to recreate itself, a place for self-improvement, and a place for spiritual training . . . [the worker] looks for the reason of his being or identity in hard work’, according to Tomatsu (Schwenkter, 1995).

So we can identify the source of the ideology of work which dominates modern industrialized economies in religious systems which claimed a divine right to control our behaviour and used fear of supernatural punishment to oblige us to work hard. The Protestant idea of vocation actually required a person to accept their calling with joy, as a God-given blessing, whether they were king or dustman. So workers should have accepted their positions and worked with smiles on their faces, contemplating their promised celestial throne. However, it seems unlikely that many of these workers were really very happy about it: for the source of the jolly worker we must look elsewhere.

US Culture and the Ideology of Work
In tracing the roots of the myth of the jolly worker we should remember that the miners who whistled `hi ho’ were not Thuringian miners but the dwarves in Walt Disney’s film of Snow White, once that fairy tale had been translated to US cartoon fantasyland. Because the Western culture of excessive work and the jolly worker can be traced to the influence of the United States on European culture.

The hard-working nature of North Americans, and in particular their systems of industrial production, has long been noted by their more relaxed European observers. As early as 1922 Weber identified the origins of modern work discipline:

No special proof is necessary to show that military discipline is the ideal model for the modern capitalist factory . . . With the help of appropriate methods of measurement, the optimum profitability of the individual worker is calculated like that of any material means of production. On the basis of this calculation, the American system of `scientific management’ enjoys the greatest triumphs in the rational conditioning and training of work performances. The final consequences are drawn from the mechanization and discipline of the plant, and the psycho-physical apparatus of man is completely adjusted to the demands of the outer world’. (from Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft, 1992, in Gerth and Wright Mills, 1948).

It may be significant in the formation of the culture of work in the US that so many of the early immigrants were Protestant extremists, exiled from their own countries because of their extreme religious beliefs. The clean-living, hard-working life-styles of those Protestant communities which survive--whether Amish or Mennonite--are renowned, and this must have been influential in establishing an attitude to work before the less noble aspiration to accumulate wealth arrived.

Although this may have provided a basis for the later development of attitudes to work, the general culture of the United States was created by the mixing of the cultures of all the immigrants who arrived there mainly during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. While these people had widely differing religious and cultural backgrounds what they all shared was the determination to succeed and the desperation that drives a person to leave all they know behind. For most, very hard work was simply necessary to ensure survival. But for many the American dream came true. They accumulated wealth and ended their days in comfort and security. This seemed to prove the equation that hard work and longs hours equal financial security that still drives the US today when so many people find that in their lives it is not true.

Of course, the real reason why most early immigrants to the USA became wealthy was because of the boundless wealth of the land available. While the frontier remained open anybody could claim a stake of this bounty, and millions became successful. They credited themselves with achieving this wealth through hard work and so work came to acquire an almost sacred status. The wealth they took from the land in producing the dust-bowl or sucking the oil from beneath the desert was misallocated as the fruit of their own labours. America, with its bounty and its emptiness (except, of course, for the native Americans, who were excluded from the fairy tale) enabled the amplification and strengthening of the Protestant work ethic. The United States became the apotheosis of industrial development, the only surviving superpower, and living proof of the rightness of the capitalist system of production. Its political and economic power has ensured that its culture has come to dominate patterns of thought throughout the world, and at the heart of that culture is the reinforced Protestant work ethic. What else do we mean by `the American Dream’ but the fact that hard work leads to wealth and happiness?

And what about the dwarves of Snow White, the archetypes for the jolly worker? Is it any coincidence that their invention in the fantasy-ridden mind of Walt Disney should have coincided with the Great Depression, the largest ever threat to the American Dream. The Great Depression was the end of the fairy tale: the bounty that nature had bestowed on the continent of America had all been used up. The Dustbowl--nature over-exploited and sucked dry--was a powerful and depressing image of the emptiness of the capitalist ideology for many in the USA. It was at this time that many US writers started to question the ideology of hard work they had grown up with, for example John Steinbeck with his portrayal of hard-working farmers destroyed in The Grapes of Wrath. The work of these writers who undermined the North American culture was black-listed out of Hollywood, leaving Walt Disney free to create his fantastical images of US life.

Do We Need the Work Ethic?
Although the compulsion to work hard has its roots in religion, it has now become pervasive in the cultures of most developed societies. Since the religion which underpinned this compulsion now has no importance for most of us it is certainly time that we also challenged the attitudes towards the work ethic that it gave rise to. However, we should not forget how many of our politicians, those men who are particularly driven by a `calling’ to organize our lives for us, still profess to a strong religious faith: Tony Blair is a prominent example. He cites his background in the Methodist Church as an important part of his vision. And Margaret Thatcher, who was won of the jolliest and hardest workers in living memory, has been a regular church attender all her life.

Much of the ideology of Thatcherism could have been drawn from the pages of Samuel Smiles: Norman Tebbitt’s comment about getting on your bike to look for work is a notable example. Norman Lamont’s equally tactless comment that `If it isn’t hurting, it isn’t working’ could also give rise to much speculation about the meaning of work within a modern Tory ideology. And I am sure we are all equally tired of hearing how John Major’s father removed his circus tights and sequinned shorts and built up his own business through hard work: selling garden gnomes, was it?

So, in conclusion, what are we to make of the myth of the jolly worker. Should we imagine those Medieval Thuringians, throwing their picks and axes nonchalantly across their shoulders and whistling `Hi Ho, Hi Ho’ as off to work they went? This seems improbable. It seems more likely that the natural human condition was to avoid work as much as possible, to chat with friends and family, to make enough effort to subsist, and to only really crank up to full power when danger threatened. The compulsion we face today to do more than this, to spend most of our precious and short lives in working for somebody else is the product of an ideology. And, as we shall see in the following chapters, it is an ideology that does not serve us very well.

The myth of the jolly worker is the first of the myths about work and in a sense it underlies and supports all the other myths. If we all enjoy work so much why do so many of us play the National Lottery every week with a tiny glimmer of hope that we might have enough money never to have to work again? But ideology, it seems, is more important to us than money. How else do we explain the fact that many Lottery winners declare that their new-found millions will not change them, and that they will keep their jobs!

If you are still subject to the myth of the jolly worker ask yourself the question: if you could have enough money for all your material needs to be fulfilled, and you could use your time to develop your interests and to achieve any project you feel passionate about, would you carry on in your job? The myth of the jolly worker tells us that work makes us free, that it is the meaning of our lives. But this was the same message that was wrought in iron over the entrance to Hitler’s concentration camps: Arbeit macht frei. Imagine yourself on your deathbed and think which of your life’s achievements you will remember then: would you want to be surrounded by filing cabinets full of reports or rows of tables and chairs you have built or mended? Or would you want to have your family and friends around you, the people you had shared the joys and sadnesses of your life with? It is your life and it is your choice.

References
Eyer, J. and Sterling, P. (1978), `Stress-related Mortality and Social Organization’, Review of Radical Political Economy, 9: 1-16.

Gerth, H. H. and Wright Mills, C. (1948), From Max Weber: Essays in Sociology (London: Routledge and Kegan Paul).

Schwenkter, W. (1995), `Work and Culture in Early Modern Japan’, in P. Gouk (ed.), Wellsprings of Achievement (Aldershot: Gower).

Thompson, E. P. (1967), `Time, Work Discipline and Industrial Capitalism’, in Past and Present, 38.

Dustpuppy Wrote:

Gareth Wrote:
You're living off inherited share dividends? Great, have fun
You're working for oxfam? If they're also giving you food and shelter etc than great, have fun, if they aren't and you're still claiming benefits than why not go and get your own situation sorted out first?
You're living off benefits without a legitimate reason and no intention of changing? Go get a job


Ah yes, I thought that might be the case: lazy parasites are fine as long as they're rich  :roll:


See, the difference is, you aren't a parasite if you are rich.  Lazy, sure (assuming one is aimless).  Lacking respect, possible.  But parasitic, no, because then you aren't asking society to support you, are you?  Is it fair?  No, but gifts are not made fairly in this world.  They are made at the discretion of the giver.   And someone who is rich was simply fortunate to benefit from a gracious gifter.  It doesn't make them a better person, far from it.  It does, however, give them the right to choose to be lazy bums.

Taxpayers are not gracious gifters.  They are forced to pay.  Someone who wants to live off the money of taxpayers had better darn well need it, or the taxpayers will rise up in wrath and force changes to the system.

PS - On specific situations mentioned somewhere in this thread ...

1) To take public money to stay home and raise children - depends on the facts.  Some people cannot earn more money than childcare would cost, and then it makes sense not to work and, instead, do right by the next generation.  But I know a woman who now has 3 kids by 3 different fathers ... I have an issue with paying for her life.  I don't want to penalize the kids, but, basically, I think she's an idiot and her kids are penalized by having her for a mother.  I'm not speaking to all single mothers, I know many that are wonderful people and are the victims of circumstance, but this one woman ... I've lost all the sympathy I once had for her.

2) To take public money to stay unemployed and do charity work - as worthy as the goal is, it isn't yours to make.  The choice on what charity work gets done or what charity gets money is mine.  I've earned the choice.  The person choosing to stay unemployed has not earned the choice, and does not have the right to spend the money earned by others to make it.  If someone is unemployed strictly by circumstance, that is different ... making the best of things can only be for the good.  But there are many subtle ways to choose to be unemployed, and the choices should not and do not belong to them.  It's similar to highjacking someone else's rights.

3) As for the born rich ... you know, they aren't all lazy bums.  In my profession I've seen it all, but more often than not I see trust fund babies who want to make their parents proud, and show their parents that they could have made it on their own, and that the gifts their parents have made them are intelligently placed.  They use the money to start businesses, to start charities, and so forth.  They WORK.  Because they want to be respected, and they know that respect is earned.  Sure, they have it easier than the rest of us in many ways, and far more choices are open to them, but by and large I see a lot of gratitude for it, and a desire to build on, not waste, that gift.

Dustpuppy Wrote:
I used the example of someone living off inherited shares because they do no work, and live off the money created by other people's effort. As I said before, it's not any less society's money because it doesn't come from the government.

Why is it OK for some people to do no work and live off money given to them and worked for by other people but not others?


It's simple:  choice.  Inherited money was given by choice; tax dollars are not.

While you choose to disagree, the inherited money is private; the tax money is public.  There is a difference, and the later is a larger burden to society than the former (which in the net is probably not a burden at all - while you can argue for the productivity lost, most of that money is going to be invested and thus is available as capital to others who will make better use of it, PLUS the trust fund baby is paying taxes into the system - none of these benefits exist when someone is living on government money).

Maybe the money paid to the sports star is just as big a drain overall as the money I pay out in taxes, but the first remains a CHOICE and the second remains a REQUIREMENT.

Be clear, I don't respect an aimless trust fund baby as a person.  I probably respect them less than the average welfare recipient.  The former had it easy and wasted it; the later never had an opportunity and isn't to blame.  But I'm not paying for the trust fund babies life (in fact, I'm probably making money from it since they tend to like to hire others to do everything), and what they do with it isn't my concern.

But to ask me to fund your life so you can make choices I feel I don't have the luxury of making ... no deal.  Taxes are forced payments intended for the betterment of society.  Missuse the money, and voters will eventually rise up in protest and change the system.

________________

PS - I have a feeling we will have to agree to disagree on this, and I am always willing to do that, but I still felt I needed to state my case.  I truly believe most of the world thinks the way I do on this, whether or not you like it, you will probably have to accept it.

Vespers, I would consider writing poetry a positive use of time.  When I refer to someone who is aimless, I'm thinking of the few who really do absolutely nothing other than look for the next thrill ... they are bored and not very happy, from what I've seen.  Writing poetry is the opposite of being aimless.

Dustpuppy, you and I will not see this the same.  As I said above, rightly or wrongly I believe that society as a whole sees it my way.  Just so you have a frame of reference with respect to how others will view certain actions.  I understand your point, it just isn't the way it's seen.

Ian Wrote:
true freedom in my opinion is just that, if you want to work, work if you don't, don't

but remember, working will always have more benefits Wink (pun not intended)

Ian


Agreed. As long as you don't expect taxpayers to fund your life, and don't whine about what your neighbors have that you don't.  As long as people realize they are, in fact, making choices, and are content with them, for the most part, I can respect it.

Gareth Wrote:
Someone living off a parental handout who is totally aimless is fine by me. Personally, i'd want to do something useful but this is a personal choice.


Agreed.  It may not seem fair to someone who wants to be free of paid work to do something valuable, but life isn't fair.  See post 1, lol.

Ian Wrote:

DW_a_mom Wrote:

Ian Wrote:
true freedom in my opinion is just that, if you want to work, work if you don't, don't

but remember, working will always have more benefits Wink (pun not intended)

Ian


Agreed. As long as you don't expect taxpayers to fund your life, and don't whine about what your neighbors have that you don't.  As long as people realize they are, in fact, making choices, and are content with them, for the most part, I can respect it.




well ya see i want a business when i'm older, hell i'm 18 now and i'm trying to get a small one started..don't worry about me living on taxpayers money, i'll pay my own way

Ian

Does this mean you are also against government grants for small business?

Ian Wrote:
ever hear of the princes trust? they help out businesses in england with financial and start up matters.

methinks you've got something wrong, as usual, i'll merely pay my own way once the business is up and running.

try research next time Wink

Ian

No, you said that you would not live off of taxpayer money, thus I wondered if you were also against taxpayer money going through the middle man of business for people to live off of. Seems simple enough.

Ian Wrote:

DW_a_mom Wrote:

Ian Wrote:
true freedom in my opinion is just that, if you want to work, work if you don't, don't

but remember, working will always have more benefits Wink (pun not intended)

Ian


Agreed. As long as you don't expect taxpayers to fund your life, and don't whine about what your neighbors have that you don't.  As long as people realize they are, in fact, making choices, and are content with them, for the most part, I can respect it.


well ya see i want a business when i'm older, hell i'm 18 now and i'm trying to get a small one started..don't worry about me living on taxpayers money, i'll pay my own way

Ian



Good luck with your business!  It's a fantastic learning experience, whether or not the business becomes a success.

Just FYI, btw, I meant to use the generic "you," not to actually mean you as an individual.  In the quoted post.

About government grants to small business, FYI, the assumption is that the business will eventually return (in taxes, employees hired, and so forth) far more to the government than it initially received.  If that assumption turns out not to be true, governments usually ax or alter their programs.
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